Major flaw in the world of engineering

[paul mcquaidParticipant @paulmcquaid48093]

Basic information

[paul mcquaidParticipant @paulmcquaid48093]

I am becoming increasingly frustrated about the lack of help for wanna be engineer's to start out. Without any basic knowledge.

The first problem I encountered was trying to get info from companies on how to set up my Warco MD30B Mill. So I turned to this sight and managed to gain enough info to sort this out, Which was actually a lot easier than first suggested.

Now to complement the Mill I have obtained a Myford ML7 lathe which came with lots of extra's but no Chuck, and I was advised to get a self centering so opted for a 5" 4 jaw type and saw one on Ebay put a cheeky bid in for and won a brand new K12 type 5" chuck. Result I thought and sure enough it came a couple of days later. Job done? Nope! Apparently It comes with no way of actually being able to fit it because it comes with no back to it! So I messaged them, that it has no back and it doesn't actually show any pictures from the back otherwise I would have known this. Ok I said "How much is one?" They replied "Oh we don't sell them, You would have to buy one from Myford!" So I phoned Myford and they said "Yes we do one in that size, £29. Oh so that's not too bad I thought and ordered one which came about four days later, I opened the box, To be greeted with 1 5" backplate without any holes or anything apart from the Myford mount fixing. Now I know all of you will be saying that's how they come and you have to drill the holes yourself, But you also have to make a recess in the plate for it to locate. This I found out after I phoned to ask what the hell is this I have been sent. Then the bloke said we sell the same chuck complete with the machine backplate for £150.00. So I said I have got the chuck already how much would the machined backplate cost? He replied, "We don't sell them". I said "So you sell the plain plate separately, But you don't sell the machined plate separately at a higher price? But you do sell it if you buy the chuck as well? Which will cost over double the price? Do you see where I'm coming from now? If you don't already know things to start with nobody will tell you all the things to look out for. Myford could quite easily get a batch of these plates machined up to sell as a separate item. But won't so the learning engineer has to either pay someone to sort the blank out or pay extortionate amount's because of the lack of knowledge. At the end of the day all I was trying to do like most of you is buy a part at a lower price in order to be able to use my lathe and learn as go. It's hardly going to encourage anyone to keep the trade going in years to come is it? My Dilemma would be Because I don't actually have a chuck on the Lathe how would I actually be able to machine anything down let alone precision tolerances like this sort of thing?? I had to pay the price because I am a novice and feel this is a bigoted discrimination because of a lack of information and knowledge we might have.

I am not saying everyone is, Just that the information out there needs to be more accessible. Especially from the aftersales side for accessories and spares. Because I doubt in any of the engineering books does it state. "Beware when buying a new chuck for a Myford, Because If you want to but a chuck, you will have to buy either one that has the backplate already fitted for about three times the price! Or you will only be able to get a cheaper version of exactly the same make and model by paying a qualified engineer which will still cost about the same again! Unless you already are a capable engineer that can machine such tolerances. In which case instead of £150, You can buy it for £40!!

[paul mcquaidParticipant @paulmcquaid48093]

Should say Buy. Not But.

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

You will gain a lot of knowledge by buying and reading a few books.

The "bible" for many years was L H Sparet, "The Amateur's Lathe"

Ian Bradley wrote "the Amateur's Workshop" which is also very helpful, as well as "The Myford 7 Series Manual"

Stan Bray wrote "Basic Lathework"

Harold Hall wrote "Lathework" and a book on Milling.

You will find most of these in the "Workshop Practice Series), and Neil Wyatt's book on lathework, although this deals more on the Sieg SC4

Loke Neil, Dave Denner and David Clark have also writteb books dealing with the mini lathe.

Although nthe details may differ, the basic principles remain gthe same.

You will find a set of Zeus charts very useful, and Tubal cain's "Model Engineer's handbook is a very useful reference book.

Go do some reading!

Howard (Typos!)

Edited By Howard Lewis on 21/04/2023 12:54:20

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by paul mcquaid on 21/04/2023 12:32:35:

[…] I had to pay the price because I am a novice and feel this is a bigoted discrimination because of a lack of information and knowledge we might have.

[…] Unless you already are a capable engineer that can machine such tolerances. In which case instead of £150, You can buy it for £40!!

.

I’m sorry, Paul … but I think those two extracts sum it up

It is not ‘bigoted discrimination’ … it is just a simple fact of life

… The skilled input has a value, and a price.

MichaelG.

[Martin ConnellyParticipant @martinconnelly55370]

There are a lot of older screw on chuck standards (so not really standard) that make it unprofitable for a chuck supplier to stock all possible combinations of thread form and tpi/pitch, diameter and length. Separate backplates is the normal situation for most people with an older lathe and one of the things that many people end up doing after buying a new chuck is making a backplate to suit. You can buy chucks that fit directly on to some lathes but they cost a lot more as a result of being for a relatively niche market. One of the advantages of making a backplate is it can be tailored to suit the lathe and chuck it is to be used with for a better final mate up of chuck to lathe.

Due to the demand for chucks that can be fitted without having to make a backplate and the premium put on the Myford name by some people it makes some fiscal sense for the chucks to be sold separately from the lathe when selling a used Myford lathe. I don't think this happens with many other makes of used lathes.

If you had found this site before you spent any money you would have found plenty of people willing to give free advice, sometimes a few contrary views but usually all amicable. In the case of your mill if you had asked about a "round column mill" you will find plenty of information both here and on the WWW. I often suggest people find the equivalent machine supplied by Grizzly in the USA and look at their manuals as they rewrite them for an English speaking customer base and include a lot more detail than the original manufacturer feels it is necessary to supply. A quick internet search for Grizzly round column mill identifies a machine with a manual that can be downloaded here. Grizzly G0705 manual Search YouTube for "round column mill" and you should find plenty of useful videos.

Martin C

Edited By Martin Connelly on 21/04/2023 13:16:24

[JAParticipant @ja]

Paul

Is this just a rant? There is nothing wrong with that. I like a good rant.

Or an appeal for help? There are people out there who will help you. The first thing to do is make the appeal and give some idea of the location of your workshop.

JA

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

If you want parts or accessories,, look at suppliers like Arc Euro or RDG for Myford backplates, other suppliers of accessories and tools wilkl be Chronos, Warco, Axminster or Chester

If you bought Model Engineer or Model Engineers'Workshop, many of these names would appear.

Hooward

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

It's a trade and it takes years to learn at any level

The people who are good at it are classed as highly skilled labour

The bit I missed until later on is that model engineers are only just above watch/clockmaker size engineers for a lot of the stuff they do and I'm more a chunky bits guy

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Classic example of why e-bay prices are less you are just buying the item and no other info or help. Buy from a reputable supplier and their websites will generally have info on what fit's what and what parts you requite.

The reason the backplates come part machined is so the end user can do the final machining on their spindle which will give the best chance of a true running chuck.

The far eastern benchtop lathes use a different type of spindle nose and these chucks can often fit straight on so unless the seller knows what lathe you are fitting the chuck to can't really be blamed, but you just bought from a box shifter rather than a reputable supplier who could have given advice, they may well have also suggested a smaller diameter one as 125mm is a bit large and 3-jaw SC would be the more common choice.

Many of the older book may not mention backplates as it was more usual to buy chucks with a threaded body to screw straight onto the spindle nose of many of the hobby lathes (Myford, Boxford, etc) but screwed body chucks are not so common now so reading a more upto date book such as the one mentioned by Neil Wyatt does cover the subject of backplates

[Mick B1Participant @mickb1]

The reason for the Myford procedure is that in the old days it was more difficult to achieve consistent low tolerances in chuck mountings than it is now.

Lathes for industrial as well as domestic/hobby use were typically sold initially without fitted tooling like chucks, even if such accessories formed other item lines on the same order.. So the idea was that buyers would mount the backplate on their threaded spindle nose and turn its O/D to a precision location fit in the counterbore of the chuck they happened to have, and drill clearance holes for the screws to secure the chuck body – which would therefore run to the best practically-achievable concentricity.

Engineers are required to spot this sort of thing, and to be ingenious (note liguistic-derivation pun) in their resolution of it.

Undoubtedly there's a culture associated with this, and part of it is due to the usually humiliating period of apprenticeship young people wanting to enter the field would have had to endure. Many are unwilling to give away for free the knowledge they've acquired at such personal cost – or perhaps, not so much unwilling, as that it simply doesn't occur to them to do so. Plus there's so much of this kind of background knowledge that most of us just don't know where to start in trying to shortcut someone to it.

Of course the world has moved on since then, and it's pretty easy now to buy a lathe already equipped with a basic selection of tooling – but for that you'd generally have to pay more, either buying new (probably from the Far East) or a running machine sold in good order as a going concern by somebody giving up.

Basically the facts of the game are *very generally* that if you want cheap, you need to have the knowledge and skills to provide the value you're avoiding paying money for.

Edited By Mick B1 on 21/04/2023 13:34:54

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

"The Lord helps them as helps themselves "

As a newbie, you may not know WHERE to look, but rather than complain, ask for help.

There is a lot available on here if you ask.

If you give your location, (Town / county / country ) some kind soul might take pity on you and offer to help you.

Also, find a local Model Engineering Society and join.. Again help will be forthcoming.

Howard

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Sorry to heap more dust on the bones, but a 4-jaw self-centring chuck isn't a ideal choice either! It's more usual to own a 3-jaw self-centring chuck (which grips round and hexagon stock), and a 4-jaw independent chuck (for holding odd shapes and precise centring with a dial.) A 4-jaw self-centring is for putting an extra tight grip on round stock, when a 3-jaw isn't good enough.

There are ways of machining a backplate on a chuck-less Myford, but it's not a good place to start learning! The technique dates back to before lathes had chucks, so rarely needed these days. Easier to buy rather than DIY, but buying needs a certain level of understanding:

• Chucks are rarely made to fit particular lathes. Instead, a backplate is used to connect whatever holds the chuck to whatever is available on the lathe spindle. Many variations so bespoking backplates is a common requirement and blanks are readily available. It's not a con!
• Ready machined backplates are normally only sold with a chuck, as a set made to fit a particular machine. Someone measures the chuck and designs and machines backplates to match. There's no guarantee the backplate will fit another make of chuck or another type of lathe. The purchaser has to be careful!

One reason people buy new Chinese machines is they usually come with all the basics needed to get going; the beginner isn't thrown in at the deep end with a problem like how to make a backplate. Second-hand is more pot-luck.

Don't worry too much – these are typical teething troubles. Becomes clearer once the basic accessories have been identified and fitted, books read, forum interrogated, and methods YouTubed! (Be wary of the latter: internet videos often have quality issues!) It's also necessary to develop skills, so plenty of practice.

I'm afraid there are no shortcuts to learning engineering. Sellers don't know what individual customers don't know, or what purchasers need to make life easy. They cater for the majority. Bear in mind engineers are expected to understand problem solving, which includes knowing what they need to buy. Every time I drop a workshop clanger, I remind myself that professional machinists qualified after a 7 year apprenticeship, and I have no training!

Dave

[roy entwistleParticipant @royentwistle24699]

If I were to buy a chuck for my lathe it certainly wouldn't be a four jaw self centering one either.

Roy

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

And as you improve you use better gear which does a better job

All my early drills were Lidl and ebay jobs but now its all Dormer and Presto and I grab any old imperial drills like a hungry dog

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi Paul, yes backplates can come as just plain castings and also as part machined, which is what you've got from Myford, but you can get them from RDG Tools also. You then attach it to your lathe spindle and turn the register to fit the chuck, this being the truest way of doing it, and of course, not all chucks have the same size register and that's why they are part machined or just plain castings. You can also mark the PCD of the holes at the same time with a scriber or pointy lathe tool in your tool post. The trouble with new people, is they very often don't know which traders to look for, as many of them don't go to the exhibitions now, and not so many advertise on here. When you don't know, this is a very good place to ask, as someone is likely to point you in the right directions.

Regards Nick.

[DalboyParticipant @dalboy]

Paul as a total novice myself some of what you say I found out myself from researching. I spent over a year looking at various machines before I even ordered mine. I have asked on here what many may think are stupid or simple questions. I found out in the end from both research and the answers I got on here and other model engineering sites.

Yes i did order a lathe and mill possibly oversize for what I intend to make but that is allowing some growth on my part (rather too big than too small).

I have also brought books and done a lot of reading I at least come into this hobby with opened eyes and knew some of the things I will encounter, I still have a lot to learn but will look into those as they turn up.

I brought a ER collet holder for my lathe and made my own backplate for it out of ali, now I am remaking this out of steel (Cast iron may have been better)

If you have questions then ask I was always told no question is stupid if you don't know even if afterwards the answer is staring at you. Yes I have asked those type of questions as I am sure many have also done

[Tony Pratt 1Participant @tonypratt1]

Paul, you need to get immersed in mechanical engineering, reading books and watching videos, the latter is slightly dodgy as their are some shall we say inept people posting on Youtube etc, you will soon pick up knowledge as you go along. One tip to start with, PCD is pitch circle diameter.

Tony

[Anonymous]

If the OP approaches suppliers with the same tone as the above rant then I am not surprised he got short shrift.

Of course there is a lot of knowhow involved in engineering, both knowledge and understanding which are not the same. Much knowledge is not written down but is gained by experience. However, a lot of it is really only commonsense.

To take the example given; the ML7 has a threaded spindle nose. No engineering knowledge is needed to see that any chuck must have a mating thread. So buying a chuck at random on Ebay isn't likely to be satisfactory.

It costs money to have people offering advice to potential customers, and that has to be accounted for in selling prices. The OP seems to want to pay bottom dollar for top dollar service – ain't gonna happen.

It's at times like this that one really misses the late JohnS.

Andrew

[JellyParticipant @jelly]

You're not wrong in some regards, but at the same time the information is all out there.

The issue is that without some initial formational knowledge or a mentor to bounce things off its very difficult to know what you need to research.

 

To steal the Donald Rumsfeld quote:

"There are known knowns. These are things we know that we know.

There are known unknowns. That is to say, there are things that we know we don't know.

But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know we don't know."

 

You will continue to run up against "unknown unknowns" the whole time you're engaged in engineering, but it will become less challenging as time goes on to deal with them because you'll have a deeper pool of existing knowledge and experience to work with, and more experience "solutioning" an unexpected problem as it arises.

It's also far easier if you're discussing it with others to hash out the best approach, because whilst a bit trite sounding "Engineering is a Team Sport" is a very accurate little aphorism.

No one person can possibly have a complete understanding of the subject because it's an unimaginably vast body of knowledge, so co-operation and exchange of ideas is key.

 

From a practical point of view, what's stopping you from mounting the backplate on the spindle nose and using the lathe to turn the required recess/spigot to fit your chuck?

It will result in the most accurate fit you're going to get in terms of run out, and is not particularly complex turning.

Sure, as a novice on a lathe that's new to you, it may take a couple of attempts to get it right, but that's fine, backplates are thick and the locating features on them need only be quite shallow, so if it goes wrong and ends up loose the first time, you can face off the mistake and try again without too much drama.

Edited By Jelly on 21/04/2023 14:30:43

[Ian PParticipant @ianp]

Posted by Andrew Johnston on 21/04/2023 14:22:34:

If the OP approaches suppliers with the same tone as the above rant then I am not surprised he got short shrift.

It's at times like this that one really misses the late JohnS.

Andrew

I miss John S all the time!

Ian P

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Posted by Andrew Johnston on 21/04/2023 14:22:34:

Cut

It's at times like this that one really misses the late JohnS.

Andrew

Hi, yes a very knowledgeable and helpful man he was.

Regards Nick.

[paul mcquaidParticipant @paulmcquaid48093]

Thanks for all the useful advise. The main thing I was trying to say is that the chuck I was mentioning is made by the same manufacturer and Myford produce batches of backplates designed to fit them they sell them complete and could easily sell them as a separate item, Much like I can get mounting kit's for my Harley to mount other makes of parts to it. If anything they would probably find they can make quite a good turnover of profit on it too! Myford is one example I am sure there are lot's more…

[JellyParticipant @jelly]

Posted by Andrew Johnston on 21/04/2023 14:22:34:

If the OP approaches suppliers with the same tone as the above rant then I am not surprised he got short shrift.

It did occur to me that if he'd taken that tone with my favourite second-hand tooling supplier, he'd have been subjected to a tongue lashing in a mixture of Urdu and "De-Dar" and/or escorted to the door by the proprietor's nephew.

However, applying common-sense, I strongly suspect Paul was polite (if audibly frustrated) when speaking to the supplier and is now here to vent his frustration in a more appropriate way because it's really got his goat.

[DMBParticipant @dmb]

Paul,

I started off with an ancient and worn flatbed Drummond. I later went to a local toolshop for hand tools and unexpectedly discovered they were a Myford stockist with a brand new ML Super 7 for sale. Room over shop had piles of boxes full of Myford spares. I bought lathe, stand, 4" 3 jaw self centering chuck which was ready threaded to screw on mandrel nose and 6" 4 jaw independent + blank backplate which needed to be screwed on to the mandrel and machined to fit the rear of the chuck. Work out the dia. of the pitch circle of bolt holes in the chuck and set a sharp cornered tool to scratch that dia. on the back plate. Trf backplate to drilling machine and drill four generous clearance holes on the marked pcd. Jobbie done! I frequently went back to that shop for more bits. The shopkeeper was an older woman and what she didn't know about engineering wasn't worth knowing. I only knew Lathework from schooldays and reading books as listed above. School didn't have a mill, I am completely self taught by reading books and mags and using the mill that I later bought. No question is daft, we have all had to learn.

Just ask and those with knowledge and experience will help.

Please put something in you forum profile so we have an idea where you are. Someone nearby could be willing to visit you and give further help and advice.

Good luck!

John

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