Machine vice opinions.

[Taf_PembsParticipant @taf_pembs]

Hi All,

There is such a variety of people here in terms of the kind of machining that is done, with that is mind what better place to ask for peoples opinions on the types of vice? Not bothered about size, it’s how does it work for you or would you change?

The reason being, the only vice I had to use on the mill (Chester SuperLux / RF 45 clone) was a Kurt 6″ which, to be brutally honest, is ***** huge and way too big for the table. I cant see the Y axis scale on the handle (can only just get to the hand wheel!).

However, it’s jaw size has only seemed slightly over kill for what I’ve been doing so far. So I’m thinking that a  100mm or possibly 125mm vice would be ideal but having never used the Screwless Vice (i.e. Arc Euro Type 2 Arc Euro Type 2) was wondering what they are like in every day use, and what the clamping force is like?

I don’t really see a great advantage with the SG Iron Versatile Vice (Arc Euro SG Iron Vice) in terms of size so am almost discounting it.

The 120mm ArcEuro Type 2 is significantly shorter than my 6″ monster (calm down) so will over hang the table less but their 125mm Versatile vice (Arc Euro Versatile Vice) has mounting hole centres that will allow it to clamp long ways on the table (que the debate over cutting forces etc – sorry!) there fore no overhang.

I have to say I am leaning towards the 125mm versatile vice, I do love my Kurt. 😁

Cheers,

Taf.

[John HaineParticipant @johnhaine32865]

I cant speak for specific models but I have one of the generic swivel type like this one:

https://www.rdgtools.co.uk/product/100mm-swivel-base-milling-vice-2/

It never gets attached to the swivel base, and I’ve fitted keys for quick alignment.  I’ve not found anything yet that’s too big that I can’t find another way to clamp, and it is a very convenient size on the table.  What would be nice but few m/c vices have it is the ability to take larger flat plates but I have adapted the vice to allow that.  IMHO m/c vices are overrated, a couple of angle plates, at least one of which should have ground vertical ends to take a fence, a clamping kit, and a selection of toolmaker’s and other clamps, might be used as much or more than a vice.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

My usual vice for the manual mill is a Vertex K4 (100mm) bought from Chronos used without the swivel.

-I like the starting handle type handle more than the knuckle types though they can be changed.

-I like that there is no hole in the middle of the base as it is handy for small work but that can be countered by the base not being the full width you need to take a bit of care when tapping down something at the end of the jaws.

-It has a smaller footprint than the Kurt types which also allows the handwheels to be seen though not really a problem as i have a DRO

-It does have slight jaw lift maybe a thou or two.

The main one on the CNC is a 80mm ARC universal again without the swivel again.

-Better support for parallels right out to the ends of the jaws

-Handy to be able to reconfigure for large items

– Comes with keys so quick for locating on the table

– No sign of jaw lift

-Jaws are proportionally slightly shorter so size of a cylinder laid flat is a little less

– You can drop small work into the gap in the middle

– “gutter” around the edge makes the footprint larger so can obstruct the handwheels when used on the manual mill

I’ve also been using the 100mm versatile on the manual mill over the last couple of weeks as I have been working on some plates that needed 75-100 jaw opening and it worked fine despite a bit of excessive front overhand and handwheel out of sight let alone the dial.

I have 30mm and 80mm type 2 but don’t really like them, only vice I have had a couple of items move in. The 80mm hardly sees light of day, the 35mm handy for holding at an angle in the bigger vice for small light work.

 

 

[PlasmaParticipant @plasma]

I’ve just bought a Stanier machine vice and it is a beautiful piece of equipment.

I have a standard crank arm vice on my jig borer and a heavy duty one on the Elliot shaper.

I agree that clamping and angle plates are more versatile for many set ups, but the vice speeds up my style of machining.

 

[Clive FosterParticipant @clivefoster55965]

Regular forumites will know that I’ve been most satisfied with the pair of vertex VJ400 vices I’ve owned for something approaching 20 years. Probably outside your budget at almost £350 now

https://www.rotagriponline.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&product_id=19436&flypage=shop.flypage&pop=0&keyword=vice&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=29

but the combination of 110 mm jaw width with up to 180 mm opening in a vice not seriously larger than a common 4″ vice is very handy. Maybe a little more than half as long again.

The VJ400 is basically an economy version of a hydraulic vice with a screw instead of the hydraulic doobie. There is hefty pull out pin provided so the nut can be mounted in one of three positions giving a choice of maximum openings. At full extension some extra care is needed to ensure the work is securely beaten down on the base and, obviously it does then stick out rather a lot. But for the general range of jobs its a most excellent compromise between a nominal 4″ vice, which tend to be too small for me, and a 6″ vice which is just too much of a lump and still can’t take the biggest things.

It seems to be general rule with the common type of vice that capacity is roughly square with jaw width and opening dimensions pretty similar with the moving body at least twice the opening so as to control jaw lift. So they re inevitably quite large and heavy.

The Gerardi and clone style modular vices sold for the CNC community seem to be usefully smaller in overall size for any given capacity at a cost of slightly less convenient operation. Still spendy tho’ at maybe £350 up for a clone in the sizes you’d like. Attractive Ali-Express prices being counterbalanced by high shipping!

As you already have a strong vice I do wonder if it’s practical to make a Gerardi style one from stock sections of material using glue’n screw techniques for the base which is clearly a major project to cut from solid. All the rest seems relatively easy. There are a couple of YouTubes by folk who have made one from scratch.

There is “Chick-like” clone vice in my future once a certain project gets to the top of the list.

Clive

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

To answer the actual question, I have a “screwless” vice on my small mill.
Specfically a precision tool vice type 2 with 70mm wide jaw from Arc Eurotrade. I find it an excellent vice. Holding forces are adequate  and the geometry of the screw (a short caphead) and bar keeps the moving jaw down on the base. I have an allen key with a handle that I use to tighten it. Changing grip over a large range is quck. Loosen the caphead a few turns, tilt the allen key up to disengage the bar and sldes the jaw into the new position.
A big advantage for my with a small mill (Sx1LP) is the absence of a handle. Nothing to get in the way and if I have to mount the vice with the handle over the bed or fixed obstruction you don’t have to keep flipping a fixed handle over or removing and re-fitting the handle.

Robert.

[old martParticipant @oldmart]

I needed to get a wider opening vise than the Bison 100mm ones that we have at the museum and got an ARC versatile 125mm model with the rotary base. The base is only used occasionally, but takes very little time to fit and has saved a lot of bother at times. The rear flange overhung the tables of both mills and I cut it off to get the full Y axis movement. The Bisons also overhung the mill beds and because the mount for holding the vises longitudinally  was at the end another solution was used. The ends of both Bisons was removed and milled square to fit a removable foot in case we needed to hold the vises the other way round.

 

 

[VicParticipant @vic]

Taf, you don’t say how accurate it needs to be. I suppose we all want the most accurate equipment we can get for the price but do some of us actually need it?

I’ve used a variety of machine vices including a fairly expensive Bison one at work and some old English ones. I bought a 4” Soba (Shobha) machine vice for my Warco VMC and it’s been fine. I’ve certainly not noticed any difference in the accuracy of the parts I’ve made on any of the vices I’ve used, but I’m only a Hobbyist.

It looks like this but without the swivel base.

https://www.chronos.ltd.uk/product/soba-4-super-precision-swivel-milling-vice/

Edit: would buy it again? Yes.

[DiogenesParticipant @diogenes]

Taf, I think one of the things that will inform your choice is how much throat you have between spindle axis and front of the column – no point having a vice that will take 150mm in Y if you can only reach 125 before the back of the vice hits the column..

Note the slot positions below – table is 210 wide, vice O/A length 320, open at 150.

It’s a ‘100’ vice longer than ARC’s 100, shorter than their 125 I think.

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

Another advantage of the Arc Euro Type 2 is that because they are clamped to the bed anywhere along the side you can place the fixed jaw wherever you want. It’s not dictated by the number or pitch of the slots on the table.

Robert.

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

It is sometimes advised to get two identical smaller vices so you can put them down to hold each end of a longer piece……….

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

The type 2 from Arc Euro are a bit like marmite – some like them and others don’t.

I bought the 80mm(?) one from Arc and the other from a private seller who didn’t like it.

I do have other vises but the type 2 work well for me.  I did find I needed to grind the capscrew threads a little, on one of them, to make sure it did not mark the table at times.

I also like Abwood vises.

[Bill PhinnParticipant @billphinn90025]

I’m mystified why when a thread on this topic appears nobody seems to recommend the Arc type 3 style of vice. I have a type 2 and a type 3 and I much prefer the latter.

[Robert Atkinson 2]

On Robert Atkinson 2 Said:

Another advantage of the Arc Euro Type 2 is that because they are clamped to the bed anywhere along the side you can place the fixed jaw wherever you want. It’s not dictated by the number or pitch of the slots on the table.

Robert.

You can do similar with most vices if you just use a clamping set on the gutter or bolting lugs. That is what I do if Iwant my vice at an angle or lengthways in preference to using the swivel base.

A matched pair of vices is nice buy you can often use unmatched ones or clamp one end to a block or angle plate if needed, handy when one end of the part is a different height to the other

[Taf_PembsParticipant @taf_pembs]

Wow, some fantastic responses and info there, thank you all !!

Having though more about it, and thanks to the responses here I’m leaning towards the Arc Euro Versatile SG Iron 100mm. I already have the monster of a Kurt so reducing to a 125mm version of the same type is a little pointless.

The fact that the mill spindle is somewhat forward of the centre point of the Y travel means the Kurt, being so big, only magnifies that problem as the fixed jaw is then even further back and clamping it any further forward would mean the vast majority of the vice is unsupported.

I will be able to clamp the SG Iron vice where ever with some suitably made clamps although coolant may get messy when used (must try one of the mist jobbies!) with it not having a gutter.

Only 1 problem .. Arc Euro have no stock of it!  Typical, I’m always the first to be too late 🙄

I think a small type 2 style will be on the cards for when I manage to sell some other stuff.

Thanks again all,

Taf

[VicParticipant @vic]

How do folks get on with the exposed thread on some of the vices mentioned. Is swarf a problem?

[Mark EasingwoodParticipant @markeasingwood33578]

The ArcEuro 100mm SG vice on a Sieg SX3. It is the only 100mm vice I have, so I can’t give a comparison with any other. It had some sharp “flash” from grinding, on the edges when new, but a few minutes with file soon fettled it.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Never had a problem with swarf on the Vertex which has the more exposed screw. Have had a bit get into the 80mm universal a couple of times but I put that down to the air I use during machining to clear chips and also carry lubrication.

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi old mart, I have a large 6″ vice that I use on my Warco Major, which has the same issue with a bolting lug that overhangs the table, and I loose about 30mm of Y travel, which hasn’t been a problem so far.

However, I do have another 6″ vice that I had to attach a piece of angle iron to, so I could use it on my Chester Champion milling machine, as it was to big to mount it at a right angle to that table, and there was no bolting lug made at that end, and although the jaws are not as deep and don’t open nearly as much, it will go on my Warco one, and will be about level with the edge of the back of the table, as long as I remove the angle iron.

There is another bolting lug at the other end of this vice, so it’s not just the three bolts that can be seen, that’s holding it down. As it happens, I have it stripped down at the moment, for a good clean, as it had got a lot of swarf collected under the moving jaw.

Regards Nick.

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi Taf, I’ve also got one those from RDG that John Haine, has linked too, and it’s very good, which I have used on my mini mill, without any problems.

Regards Nick.

[Taf_PembsParticipant @taf_pembs]

I also have (somewhere) what ‘appears’ to be the same unit as that Nick, the one that John linked to.

I can only assume it is very very cheap copy. The lead screw nut retaining bolt can not be remotely tightened up as the nut has been machined soo short it pulls the lead screw down and jams it solid even though the nut would still need a taxi to get to it’s seat. So the lead screw nut just wobbles about, the retaining bolt falls out and it feels awful.

It also has terrible jaw lift, I used to use it occasionally on my drill press but don’t even bother with that any more.

It’s all fixable I suppose but because it feels so poor I cant really be bothered – I really should find it and sort it out and gain a small foot print 100mm vice!

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

I have a DH1, which are sold by Warco.   Not too big for a sub-Bridgeport vertical mill, mine’s a WM18.  Versatile because the jaws can be positioned in different ways, and can grip in either direction.  Holds larger objects than it’s size suggests.  Also, deeper jaws available.  Not had any trouble with accuracy, jaw lift, or swarf in the works etc.

Usual reasons for rarely using the swivel, though occasionally handy.

And it’s British!

Dave

[old martParticipant @oldmart]

Hi, Taf, have you spoken to the Arc people to find out what the lead time is on their SG iron vise. They are very helpful and could reserve one if you are prepared to wait. The vise is beter made and are accurate than their cheaper one, the only downside is not having the rotary base, which I like, but many people don’t.

[Dave SParticipant @daves59043]

Grinding vices, like the Arc Type2 are often on sale at MSC (https://www.mscdirect.co.uk/catalogsearch/result/?q=toolmaker%20vice) – look in their “Advantage” newsletter

Thats where my 75mm wide one came from, no complaints. I use it on both mill and surface grinder.
Dave

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

I’m not sure if the SG will be coming back into stock at ARC as they also have them listed under “clearance”

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