M300 Suds Pump with inverter

[Martin Turner 4Participant @martinturner4]

HI guys, I have just found time to wire my Invertek VSD into my Harrison M300.

Wired it as A2 to B1, B2 to C1 and C2 to A1, that'll puts it in delta. Connected one phase of the inverter to each of the new connections (C2, A1) (A2, B1) and (B2, C1) and the lathe runs fine.

The suds pump is a different story, changed the links to Delta and linked it in with the 3 motor phases to try it but it's not doing anything, also the suds pump motor only has 3 cables unlike the usual 6.

Any advice will be greatly appreciated.

[Martin Turner 4Participant @martinturner4]

[Martin Turner 4Participant @martinturner4]

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[Martin Turner 4Participant @martinturner4]

Edited By Martin Turner 4 on 16/07/2018 22:59:45

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

Not being an electrician, a thought to flush the knowledgeable out of the woodwork.

Does the Inverter supply 3 Phase at 240 volts to the main motor? If so perhaps the suds pump would prefer 450 volts 3 Phase still?

Howard

[Ian ParkinParticipant @ianparkin39383]

that pump certainly looks like a 415v wired motor in spite of the ratings plate suggesting dual voltage

 

even so it should attempt to start on 240v

Edited By Ian Parkin on 17/07/2018 18:00:11

[Martin Turner 4Participant @martinturner4]

I message Rupert Powell today as I know he has advised a few people on how to convert the M300's to VSD. It appears that the suds pump has only 3 cables coming from the stator so a Delta configuration isn't possible. Rupert sent me this video where a guy managed to get at the star point and convert the stator to a 6 wire Delta setup.

[Anonymous]

Something doesn't add up here. The coolant pump plate clearly indicates that the motor is dual voltage. The manual I have for my M300 gives exactly the same part number for the coolant pump (AQ3/2/Q) for both the 415V UK and the 220/380V European version. Which implies that the coolant pump can be reconfigured.

The company M G Electric are still going, selling the AQ4 version now. Might be worth asking their technical group about the AQ3.

I'd also go with the suggestion from Ian, try it configured as star, it ought to run on 230V. If not the motor is probably badgered.

Andrew

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

I would suspect the pump has been rewound at some point in its life and is now only wired in star. The terminal block and plate would suggest it was once a star delta motor but not now.

Mike

[John BaronParticipant @johnbaron31275]

Hi Guys,

Looking at that picture, I would suspect that all seven connections are there. It seems that it has been wired on one side of the terminal block. Lifting the wires and checking with an ohmmeter would confirm that.

[John BaronParticipant @johnbaron31275]

Ops, scratch that ! Getting confused by the power in wires. Sorry.

[john fletcher 1Participant @johnfletcher1]

As john Baron has said, cheque out the 3 set of winding connections with an ohm meter. You may need to put the wiring back in star so that you can identify the TWO ends which would be the star point. Then automatically you have the ONE ends as well, then configuration the three windings as you have done with the main motor. Once in Delta the motor will run from a 240 volt single phase supply. by connecting a capacitor across any pair of connections. Connect line and neutral to any pair of terminals, then connect the 4 micro farad capacitor to the third terminal and one other either neutral or live. An ex fluorescent lighting capacitor from a 4 foot is ideal or use two 5 foot 8 micro farads, wired in series. Opposite to resistors. I have done this lots of times for my friends who have Harrison and Colchester lathes. I suggest you forget about running the pump via your inverter. John

[Martin Turner 4Participant @martinturner4]

I un-bolted the insulator block and it only has the 3 cables going to the stator, I did move the links to the Delta position as they were originally across the back in star but now I know there is only 3 cables it wouldn't have made any difference anyway.

As the M300 is a common lathe to put in a 220v 3ph VSD has anyone else had this issue before with there suds pump.

[Martin Turner 4Participant @martinturner4]

I spoke to MG Electric and they have sent me a drawing but my pump must be odd as it's only got 3 cables coming from the windings instead of 6.

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[Martin Turner 4Participant @martinturner4]

Edited By Martin Turner 4 on 18/07/2018 11:07:35

[Martin Turner 4Participant @martinturner4]

Also forgot to say my lathe was stored for about 10 years and the suds tank will also need to have some small rust holes repairing. If I can't reconfigure this old pump I may just buy a new 240v single phase system, any recommendations?

[Anonymous]

I'm beginning to think that the coolant pump may be fudged? If it won't run in star or delta it probably is.

I can't remember where I got my replacement 3-phase suds pump for the Bridgeport, as well as a single phase one for the CNC mill, but there are plenty of industrial suppliers out there. I had a bit of a to do with the single phase pump. Naturally I ordered a 240V version. When it came to wiring up it said 110V inside the connection box. So I called the supplier, who was rather rude and implied I knew nowt about electrics. I persisted and eventually they checked their stock. Turns out they'd ordered a batch of 240V units, and the units had a 240V sticker on the outside, but were really 110V units inside. Wonder how much that cost them in warranty claims! At least they apologised for being rude.

Andrew

[Martin Turner 4Participant @martinturner4]

Posted by Andrew Johnston on 18/07/2018 11:43:16:

I'm beginning to think that the coolant pump may be fudged? If it won't run in star or delta it probably is.

I can't remember where I got my replacement 3-phase suds pump for the Bridgeport, as well as a single phase one for the CNC mill, but there are plenty of industrial suppliers out there. I had a bit of a to do with the single phase pump. Naturally I ordered a 240V version. When it came to wiring up it said 110V inside the connection box. So I called the supplier, who was rather rude and implied I knew nowt about electrics. I persisted and eventually they checked their stock. Turns out they'd ordered a batch of 240V units, and the units had a 240V sticker on the outside, but were really 110V units inside. Wonder how much that cost them in warranty claims! At least they apologised for being rude.

Andrew

When you turn the pump on you can see the shaft twitch but it wont spin up even if you help it with a spin from a screwdriver. I have sent some picture to MG Electric and they are going to ask a guy that's been there 50 years about my pump, they basically said the drawings they have show 6 cables unlike the 3 I have, my lathe was built in the 70's from memory.

[Ian ParkinParticipant @ianparkin39383]

Can you spin the pump easily with your fingers if its been stood the bearings could be stuck or the impeller may be full of crud that lives in the bottom of suds tanks

Strip off the pump end and see if the motor spins easily and then runs on your 240v 3 phase

[Martin Turner 4Participant @martinturner4]

Posted by Ian Parkin on 18/07/2018 12:24:10:

Can you spin the pump easily with your fingers if its been stood the bearings could be stuck or the impeller may be full of crud that lives in the bottom of suds tanks

Strip off the pump end and see if the motor spins easily and then runs on your 240v 3 phase

The pump is now fully stripped, bearings are fine. The odd thing is I only have 3 cables on my stator and as MG Electic put on there drawing you usually use 6 and wire 240 3ph into Delta.

[Ian ParkinParticipant @ianparkin39383]

martin

as has been said earlier its probably been rewired but a 415v motor should work on 240v

Have you a meter to check continuity on the 3 windings?

[Martin Turner 4Participant @martinturner4]

Posted by Ian Parkin on 18/07/2018 13:29:04:

martin

as has been said earlier its probably been rewired but a 415v motor should work on 240v

Have you a meter to check continuity on the 3 windings?

I can check it later with a meter, as the tank also needs to be repaired I may just buy a new 240v single phase setup. As it's a hobby lathe I may not even really use coolant, my old Harrison never had a working suds pump.

[john fletcher 1Participant @johnfletcher1]

Now you have your motor dismantled it might just be very easy to bring out those three extra connection to convert to Delta. Look in the stator for a lump/bump like connection, and see if you can see three thin wires going to the lump/bump. This lump/bump is often opposite end to the other output wires. Should you be lucky, then part the three wires, then carefully attach three individual insulated wires, one at a time long enough to reach the terminal box. You must find a safe route within the stator for the new wires to run, they must not rub on the rotor when its revolving. and each connection must be carefully insulated. When completed, get your friendly electrician with his 500 volt DC Megger to carry out an insulation test. There was an excellent article on "HERE" some time ago about the same thing. It can be done and many have already done it, nothing complicated, just be careful. John

[Martin Turner 4Participant @martinturner4]

Posted by john fletcher 1 on 18/07/2018 17:39:50:

Now you have your motor dismantled it might just be very easy to bring out those three extra connection to convert to Delta. Look in the stator for a lump/bump like connection, and see if you can see three thin wires going to the lump/bump. This lump/bump is often opposite end to the other output wires. Should you be lucky, then part the three wires, then carefully attach three individual insulated wires, one at a time long enough to reach the terminal box. You must find a safe route within the stator for the new wires to run, they must not rub on the rotor when its revolving. and each connection must be carefully insulated. When completed, get your friendly electrician with his 500 volt DC Megger to carry out an insulation test. There was an excellent article on "HERE" some time ago about the same thing. It can be done and many have already done it, nothing complicated, just be careful. John

I have had a quick look for the star connection to see if it can be separated into 3 individual cables but at the moment I can't find it. I can only see two cores that come out the winding and go back in. We have Megger's at work, I work in the engineering department of Southampton docks.

[David George 1Participant @davidgeorge1]

Hi Martin over the years I have repaired many coolant tanks and I found a good degrease, poke out any holes and then give it a coating of resin filler plastic metal making sure that holes are proud on the outside and repaint. Then take the pump if it is viable, to the local motor repair shop as they are not expensive and more knowledgeable than me.

David

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