Luton Tail lift for Moving 500kg lathe?

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

and I’m anticipating a quote of around £800-900 for it to be delivered

Surely Warco would provide a definitive delivery cost?.  Lathe weighs over 500kg, so with crate, will be well beyond their 500kg cut-off, I expect.  I doubt, for one moment it would be as high as you are “anticipating”, but prove me wrong, by all means.

 

[Mark SlatterParticipant @markslatter13251]

Many thanks for the replies and thoughts everyone, it’s all appreciated.

I visited the Warco showroom to have a look at the lathe and compare it to a couple of other models, the sales chap informed me due to the weight and size of the machine it would need to be delivered outside of the standard pallet delivery options…and suggested a cost of between £800-900 as the going rate. This quote will only be confirmed closer to the delivery date, when the machine is back in stock. In other words the delivery would be done through a  third party and not Warco.

Loading will be fairly simple on the Warco end I’d imagine as they will have access to a forklift, its more the unloading on my end that could get interesting.

I have looked on the Palletline website and it seems to indicate they would be able to accept a longer than standard pallet, and the weight shouldn’t be a problem. Perhaps this is an avenue to investigate further If I can get the pallet dimensions from Warco.

I thought I should add that Warco have been very pleasant to deal with and the additional cost for delivery was made apparent right from the start.

 

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

A pleasure to help, Mark!

 

My point about entrusting Warco with the delivery, although expensive (was that their quote, or their estimate – two different things? is that they will have a set of couriers used to their class of work and types of loads.

While on engine-cranes, which Warco itself suggests using, assuming using one that cope with a half-tonne load, a heavily-loaded engine-crane is very awkward to manoeuvre safely and accurately. It is designed for vertical lifts of reasonably symmetrically-balanced loads that the crane’s front wheels can pass either beneath or to straddle.  As the term “engine crane” indeed suggests: it was invented for lifting engines in and out of cars on level garage floors.

A corollary is that placing a heavy machine-tool on a cabinet with an engine-crane may need the jib fully extending, which significantly both reduces its load capacity and raises its ceiling height.  So if the stand is solid-fronted you’d need consider an engine-crane that will raise and hold the weight at full jib extent, when the lathe is suspended properly (consequently with its feet well below the hook), and without the jib-head hitting the ceiling.

Something like an engine-crane is probably best hired unless you really are going to use it frequently and have space to store the thing – heavy and bulky even when folded. Whether hiring or buying, determine the load and space requirements first and discuss them with the hirer or seller to obtain the most suitable crane.

 

……

I would discount suggestions about fitting a tow-bar to your car and buying / hiring a suitable trailer. Unless you have a car already fitted and capable of towing a gross weight approaching a tonne, and your driving-licence permits such towing. That route is now very bureaucratic and expensive, costing likely some hundreds of £££, without really solving the practical problem.

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi Mark, there is a lot to consider before using a car and trailer, first of which is your driving licence and when you actually passed your test, can make the difference of what weight you can tow. Then the vehicle you will be using, and then then trailer. You can only tow an un-braked trailer with a gross weight of 750kg, and the vehicle must have a kerb weight of at least 1500kg. A braked trailer will carry up 3500kg. but the vehicle may not be capable of towing that much weight, but the trailer must not weight more than the vehicle weight, but you will find that the vehicle may not be able to tow the total weight of the trailer and the load you wish to carry. The whole outfit must not exceed the MAM (maximum authorised mass) which includes everything you have in the vehicle, including any passengers, and not to be confused with the vehicle’s kerb weight. The log sheet should tell you what the maximum towing weights for the vehicle are of both un-braked and braked trailers. and of course you will have certain speed restrictions, and you must not enter the outside lane of a three lane or more carriageway while towing any trailer. You also must know if your insurance will cover you for towing such loads.

Regards Nick.

[Mark SlatterParticipant @markslatter13251]

You both make very good points, and I hadn’t taken into consideration the in’s and out’s of using a trailer Nick, thank you….in light of what you’ve said I don’t think that’s an option anymore.

I think at this stage I’m left with three options:

1. Obtain the pallet dimensions from Warco and have a company such as Palletline deliver, the insurance on this (or lack thereof) may be where this options falls down.

2. See whether I could hire a drop side van on my licence along with a gantry crane for offloading, as has been suggested. Once its on solid ground I can use a combination of pallet truck and engine crane to get it into place.

3. Wait to see what Warco will actually charge and cough up.

The machine is due to be in stock this March, I will report back on what I went with and any pitfalls in case it may help someone considering the same dilemma.

Many thank again for all the assistance!

[Dave SParticipant @daves59043]

I would suggest that as you have an engine crane a normal high roof van would be better than a Luton.

If warco can load then hurrah, else take the crane with you.
Slinging a lathe from the headstock and bed means your lifting from above, removing the  lathe fall over issue.
I moved my L5 in a similar manner, and have also moved the 540 grinder, a 4”x2”6 cast surface table (on stand) and other awkward heavy things.
My CVA lathe is the worst, but on that I picked up one end with the other end on rollers.
As for pallet trucks are no good tha is exactly how my TOS FNK25 (1700kg) got to its current location…

The most important thing to remember is not to be in the place where you may get crushed if it all goes titsup.

Dave

[Michael CallaghanParticipant @michaelcallaghan68621]

I moved my Colchester lathe using a Luton tail lift. You need a fair bit of equipment to be safe. I used an engine lift to get the lathe on the tail lift. The lathe was already lighted by removing all that could be removed beforehand. A hand winch pulled the lathe into the van itself. Getting the lathe off was a bigger problem. But a mix of winch to get the lathe to the edge of the van bed. And a long bar to work it onto the tail life. Just make sure that the weight is as near the van side as possible, smaller tail lifts tip forwards under load. A winch was then used to pull the lathe into the garage. Better with two people, but I did it on my own.

[noel shelleyParticipant @noelshelley55608]

Whilst in transit your load will be insured by the haulage company. A pallet wagon will often have a heavy duty tail lift or could be specified so it arrives at the destination and is left on the drive Etc. Having had engines that weigh more than this load moved this way I doubt it would be more than £200.

Lengths of scaffold tube about 3′ long, may be 4 of them can make moving things easy, as roller.  Good luck. Noel.

[Andy StopfordParticipant @andystopford50521]

Just a thought, Mark. Since you’ve got a bit of time, and probably have some flexibility about the date to collect the lathe, it might be worth asking some local haulage contractors, especially owner-drivers – a Hi-Ab equipped flatbed lorry would be ideal for the job, the driver would know how to secure the load correctly, and put it down exactly where you want it (the last is something Palletways, etc can be a bit iffy about).

[IanTParticipant @iant]

So let’s just look at trailers again for just a second.

You can hire a braked twin axle trailer for about £60 a day. A typical one weighs 300kg and can handle upto 1000kg – but your lathe only weighs just over 500kg – so the total towed weight would only be just over 800kg. You can tow with an ordinary driving licence if the combined weight is less than 3,500kg MAM even if you passed your test after Jan 1st 1997 but for older persons (like myself) the limit is a whopping 8250kg!

So maybe my first suggestion should be that when you look around that pub car park I mentioned and try too find a driver who looks over 50! But even so, even allowing for a couple of passengers ect, the vehicle in this case, can still weigh up to 2,300kgs. The Toyota HiLux (the example I mentioned) weighs 1830kg (curb weight) and is rated to tow 2250kg – so what’s the problem?

With regards to insurance, most people driving this kind of vehicle will probably be insured for business use (and towing) I’d suggest. A flatbed trailer (in my experience) is easier to load and unload than a van. So I wouldn’t discount a trailer – just find someone with a suitable vehicle (a friend or self-employed guy who wants some beer money). My lovely Alfa is a bit light (at 1500kgs) and I’d never stick an ugly tow bar on her beautiful backside but a trailer would still be my preferred method of moving heavy kit if money was tight. I’d just be looking for a ‘suitable’ helper (you’ll need one anyway) – my next door (landscaper) neighbour for instance (methinks for future personal use)   🙂

Regards,

 

IanT

[Nick WheelerParticipant @nickwheeler]

If I was going to rent a vehicle to do this job, it would be a dropside, flatbed 3.5Ton Transit(or whatever) that cost about £100 per day. It’s designed for the easy loading, transport and unloading of awkward, but not particularly heavy loads like the one specified. Load with a forklift, thoroughly strap down using the designed in points and unload with a -borrowed or rented as necessary – gantry and chain host, having backed the van into the workshop.

 

That would be an affordable, economical way of removing reducing the need for sketchy use of unfamiliar equipment like trailers, cranes etc. Even with added costs of fuel, buying some straps, lunch for the helper, etc I think I’d struggle to spend half the OP’s mentioned amount

[noel shelleyParticipant @noelshelley55608]

First : The driving license, older drivers CAN NOT drive vehicles with a GVW of 8250, I know as I am one ! At age 70 you loose this entitlement UNLESS you have both eyesight test and a medical ! At age 70 if you renew your license on line you will get a new and very different one – you will have lost many categories including the 8250Kg.

I have this category, but only because I have taken and paid for eyesight and a medical examinations.

According to the data plate on my Peugeot 306 has a kerb weight of 1.2t it can tow 1.2T or 0.6T unbraked within the train weight of 2.5t.

There would appear to be some confusion (at least in my eyes) over vehicle weights. The kerb weight is what the vehicle weighs at the kerb. The GVW is the max the vehicle CAN weigh loaded and GTW is the total of the vehicle and it’s trailer.  Where the figure of 1500Kg came from I don’t understand ?

If a vehicle falls into the Agricultural, or Special vehicle class all bets are off. eg, the LARC XV has a GVW or about 37T, but I can drive it.

A small trailer may seem easy to tow but will be very difficult to manoeuvre without a lot of practice.

Ah well, Good Luck. Noel.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Clear as Mud : https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-weights-explained

MichaelG.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

May I ask Mark to take and publish some photos of the actual load when the time comes?  My guess is there’s more to it than may have been assumed so far.

• The lathe weighs 535kg, taking it out of the ordinary mechanical handling category.  (My standard pallet WM280 arrived on a big artic, and the driver struggled to move it with his pallet truck on to lorry’s tail-lift which sagged alarmingly.  I don’t think he could have managed this lathe with what he had.)
• It’s too long to fit on a standard pallet.
• The stand is probably on a second pallet, and – depending on what else comes with it – there may be a third pallet.

Although a couple of light pallets are unlikely to be a weight problem, they are part of the load and have to be paid for.

Th big cost is probably because the lorry has to be equipped to handle a larger and heavier than usual pallet.   Although the lathe isn’t monstrously big a line has been crossed, requiring heftier equipment.  Warco’s quote, whatever it is, will be for doing this moving job properly, with insurance, and not cheeseparing with Luton Vans, trailers or home-made scaffolds.

No-one’s asked if Mark is fit and has a few equally fit mates with access to rollers, levers, chocks and an engine crane.  With those available, manoeuvring a 535kg lathe on the ground and lifting it on to the stand isn’t difficult.   Getting it off the lorry and on to the ground in one piece is the tricky bit.   There are a fair few gotchas.  For example, my engine crane will lift 1000kg, but only with the arm fully retracted.  With the arm fully out, needed to get height and reach, it’s only rated for 250kg.   Needs a lot of space and steers badly too!

Now I and all my friends are past our prime, I’d rather pay someone else to do heavy lifting. That said, moving this lathe is easy if the right equipment is available.   Attempting it on the cheap without help or suitable gear is risky, ranging from finding the pallet is stuck inside a lorry that has to go back to the hirer in an hour, to breaking the tail-lift, smashing the lathe by dropping it, or having it topple over and crush someone.   I’m assuming the run from the drop-off point to the workshop is straightforward too.  Obstacles like steps, soft-ground, and narrow doorways require extra stuff and skills.  Having done this type of work before is an enormous help.

Dave

 

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi Ian T, yes you can use a MAM with category B after 1997, but there are certain conditions within that category, which you will need to read up on. However, if you have never towed a trailer, it is unwise to jump straight in with a large and heavy load, and you will have to have a vehicle capable of towing it, an example is my Astra can only tow up to a maximum trailer weight of 680kg unbraked or 1403kg braked, and so you need to know if the categories on your licence, and the vehicle you are using will cover everything. My current Astra doesn’t have a tow bar fitted at the moment, but one thing people my not know is that not every car can have a tow bar fitted to it, and they have to be an approved type. One way of knowing if your car can have a tow bar fitted is there will be fixing points formed into the area where fixings can be used for fitting one.

Regards Nick.

[Ex contributorParticipant @mgnbuk]

A small trailer may seem easy to tow but will be very difficult to manoeuvre without a lot of practice.

Though a trailer to carry a machine of that size and weighing over half a tonne safely won’t be that small a trailer.

I have shifted a number of machines in trailers over many years – my RF30 mill drill travelled from Stratford on Avon to Huddersfield in a small Erde trailer , the surface grinder came from Market Harborough & the Denford Triac on the industrial stand (moved around 10 miles from ex-work to a place of storage locally ) both on an Erde 750Kg rated unbraked motorcycle trailer. In both cases the tow cars were rated at 750kg unbraked.

With hindsight the close-coupled small box trailer was possibly overloaded – at best it was on the limit and it was not a comfortable tow. The machine was loaded at the seller’s location using his engine hoist and the machine was not on a stand and sat low in the trailer, with the head fully lowered as well. It was braced around the base with 3×2 timbers to stop it sliding & strapped down with ratchet straps The trailer has no jockey wheel and I didn’t have an engine hoist at home at the time to unload it, so manoevering the loaded trailer into the garage was not easy.

The Triac was also at the limit of the motorcycle trailer & was loaded and unloaded with gantry cranes at each end of the journey. It was secured with multiple ratchet straps & sat on sections of scaffold planks to stop it sliding on the steel bike ramps. The grinder was easily loaded with an FLT & awkwardly offloaded with the engine hoist. The tow car (Skoda Octavia 90hp diesel) was worked hard on the hills and both loads felt very top heavy – both were very steady journeys !

When I lost the storage & had to move the Triac I stripped it down for transport – all the seperate castings came home in the car & only the base came on the trailer. Just getting the base off at home using the engine hoist was a faff due to accessibilty issues – the outstreched legs on an engine hoist are a pain to accomodate & they don’t roll well on less-than-perfect surfaces.

Couldn’t do either now as the current mild hybrid car only has a 300kg tow limit (braked or unbraked) – not worth fitting a towbar for that. I suppose I could use the motorhome, as that is rated to tow 2 tonnes & it toows two full-sized motrocycles on the Erde trailer without much effort, but that isn’t very cost-effective given the fuel consumption.

And doing it yourself with a trailer puts all the liabilities on you,. How much hassle, risk & stress do you want to load on yourself to save a few quid ? I’m all for being independant but, these days, I am starting to realise my limits are not where they used to be. Others may well have (and are entitled to) different opinions.

Nigel B.

 

[IanTParticipant @iant]

You may well be right about the over 70’s licence Noel (I haven’t checked but it does ring a bell). However, the driving licence weight limit issue doesn’t really seem to be a problem in this particular instance.

The “1500kg” was a reference (from memory) to my Alfa Romeo Guilia (which I was not suggesting should be used).

Completely off topic – I’ve just checked and it’s dry weight is 1404kg, with a curb weight 1517kg, which I assume is with a full gas tank. It’s very light for a mid-sized saloon because AR used aluminium body and suspension parts, engine block and fitted a carbon fibre driveshaft to even the ‘base’ model. However, should I ever decide to turn her into a fancy dray-horse, Alfa says she can tow upto 1600kg. I’m not planning to ever do so though.

Of course you have to be fit enough to do the work but you will most probably have that problem at the delivery site anyway. If cost is an issue, then ‘Self Help’ is going to be the least expensive option. I used a 2-ton engine crane previously but they are limited in both reach and lift height, which is where a flat bed trailer comes in very useful because it’s bed is lower than a van’s and it can be accessed from the side. I think we reversed the trailer under the lifted mill, which again might be hard with a van because of it’s roof hitting the crane gib. And No, I don’t like towing (and avoid reversing as much as possible) but I can do it if needed.

Anyway, that’s my suggestion. If money is no object then obviously just pay a professional with a flatbed lorry and crane.

 

IanT

[Mark EasingwoodParticipant @markeasingwood33578]

When it comes to Business Insurance on Vans etc it depends on the Policy, and the options included.

In my own case it is, “Carriage of Own Goods Only”, and the value of the “Goods” being carried are not included. I have seperate “Goods in Transit” insurance as part of my general Business Insurance.

Mark.

[noel shelley]

On noel shelley Said:

Where the figure of 1500Kg came from I don’t understand ?

 

Hi Noel, the 1500 is to do with unbraked trailers, as the maximum unbraked trailer can only be 750kg including its load, the vehicle’s kerb weight has to be twice that, so if your vehicle’s kerb weight is only a 1000kg, your trailer and load must not weigh more than 500kg.

Regards Nick.

[noel shelley]

On noel shelley Said:

First : The driving license, older drivers CAN NOT drive vehicles with a GVW of 8250, I know as I am one ! At age 70 you loose this entitlement UNLESS you have both eyesight test and a medical ! At age 70 if you renew your license on line you will get a new and very different one – you will have lost many categories including the 8250Kg.

…

Thanks to Noel for posting that! I was going to check my licence, because I remember noticing it had changed again when I reached 70.  My original paper licence generously allowed me to drive several vehicle categories.   Some of them disappeared when the licence went plastic and even more when I reached 70.

Doesn’t make a difference now I only drive an ordinary car, but I recommend anyone who has a newly issued licence to read the small-print to confirm they’re still licenced if driving anything unusual; don’t assume ‘grandfather rights’.  I believe removed categories can only be reacquired by meeting the modern requirements: theory and practical driving tests, medicals & eyesight etc.

Dave

[Nick WheelerParticipant @nickwheeler]

Further to Dave’s point, anyone who is sending their licence back to Swansea for whatever reason should retain a copy of it, because they are notorious for deleting entitlements. Important ones, like the HGV one you use to earn a living. And it’s on you to prove you had it, because the new computer record is the one they’ll consider to be be ‘correct’.

[Mark RandParticipant @markrand96270]

Just had a thought strike me:-

Most of us with a car licence will have ‘class l: Electrically propelled vehicle’ on our licence entitlements.

That is defined as “a vehicle in which the electrical motive power is derived from any electrical storage battery which is not connected to any source of power when the vehicle is in motion”.

Is a Tesla class B or class l ? What about a DAF or Volvo 27 tonne electric lorry?

 

Still pissed off at having classes C and D taken off me in 1998 just because I’ve been a type 1 diabetic since 1965 and didn’t drive trucks for an average of 20 hours per week or more…

[Author]

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