Luton Tail lift for Moving 500kg lathe?

[Mark SlatterParticipant @markslatter13251]

Hello everyone,

I’ve treated myself to a Warco D330 Pro lathe, as it’s a bit of an unknown quantity time will tell whether it was a sensible choice or not.

https://www.warco.co.uk/home/303685-d330-pro-lathe.html

The machine is at the very limit of my budget and I’m anticipating a quote of around £800-900 for it to be delivered. This is more than I want to be spending by a good bit. I was thinking of hiring a Luton tail lift van and collecting the machine myself.

Has anyone tried this or have some advice to offer? I’d prefer to use a trailer as its lower and will make off loading easier but I don’t own a car with a tail hitch. I do have an engine crane and access to a pallet jack for offloading however.

Any advice appreciated.

[noel shelleyParticipant @noelshelley55608]

What ever you do remember that a lathe on a pressed tin stand WILL be very top heavy and prone to topple over at the first opertunity. Where are you ? Plenty of ratchet straps and careful loading, and if using a trailer make sure you have about 25Kg of front/nose weight, the headstock end will be heavy so do not put it central. If you hire a van make sure it has plenty of lashing points inside and bear in mind the greatest force will be under braking – it could slide forwards. Good luck. Noel

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Stating the obvious : Not all Tail-Lifts are created equal !

 

Have a look here:

https://anteouk.co.uk/tail-lift-range/

MichaelG.

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

Most rental place will only supply up to a 3.5t luton with a tail lift as this is the limit on a modern car licence. That only leaves about 800 to 900kg of payload (including passengers). Typically the lift will be rated to about 500kg so marginal for your lathe. Especially if you add a person and pallet truck. My experience is that the lifts on this type of van are a bit flimsy. I’d want at least a 50% over-capacity on the lift especially s the rating is normally for an evenly distributed load.
That really means a larger vehicle. You can drive up to 7.5t on most older licences but check yours. You need a C1 category (on the back). A local rental company may have more choice  and call it a truck rather than a van. One I used to use, but no longer local to me is
https://www.abacusvehiclehire.co.uk/hire-vehicles/truck-rental. Note the rental figures are based on a 5 day rental so a single day may be more but you might get a deal on a weekend. Check the tail lift rating.

Robert.

[Nick WheelerParticipant @nickwheeler]

We once moved a complete Triumph Vitesse in a Luton rented from the local cheap rental company. We insisted on the taillift because although the car was complete, it was also disassembled and we both knew that Triumph’s small six is obnoxiously heavy for such a small capacity engine. Copious use of ratchet straps and swearing got the van loaded and we braved the 70miles back home. Braved, because it was an LDV Convoy rented from a company whose slogan ought to be Rent one of our vans, it might make it.

 

Now for the advice: moving a 500kg lathe with the equipment you have or will rent is not something I’d consider. Engine cranes are not good at moving long, tall items and a pallet jack is similarly too small to do much useful work.

[Clive FosterParticipant @clivefoster55965]

Objectively the tail lift is unlikely to manage it.

In practice it might be possible given sufficient low cunning but things will be strained.

Maybe 15 years ago I helped a friend load a Churchill Cub into the high body Luton tail lift van the optimistic purchaser arrived with. The Cub book weigh is 1232 lb / 559 kg so little heavier than the Warco whose book weight is 520 kg according to your link. After removing the chuck, tailstock and topslide to lighten things a bit, pushing the lathe right up to the van end of the lift and arranging some assistance from a chain hoist we coerced the lift into raising the platform level with the van floor. We had to add timber cribbing under the lift platform to make it stable enough to work on. The platform distorted and swayed rather alarmingly.

I’ve no idea how the man got it off the other end. I’d be unsurprised if it turned out that he broke the tail lift in the process! Judging by the amount of other stuff he had already put in the van and the lack of rear suspension travel the poor thing was way overloaded. Wobbled like pregnant hippo as it waddled away up the straight and well surfaced road away from my friends place at 8 pm to begin a 200 mile (ish) run home.

If it had been my machine I’d have cancelled the sale and sent him home the moment I saw what was already in the van as it was almost certainly overloaded, or at least close to, before the lathe went in.

It’s likely that a more modern tail lift system will have proper load sensors to stop such abuse. If I were in the van hire business I’d turn things down a bit to protect the van.

Having been persuaded to assist in a number of machine moves the only 2 that didn’t shift the scare meter involved either a HiAb lorry or a portable gantry hoist. The others ranged from “Ye canna be serious, mon!” to positive proof of the efficiency of sufficiently heartfelt prayer!

Clive

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

Hopefully, the machine will be in a box and not on a stand.

If it is “bare” and on a stand, remove it so that it can moved when as low as possible.

Get help to steady / push/secure.

A pallet truck can be used to move the box within the van, so that it can be secured safely.

It may be worth taking a few pry bars and wood blocks, even a low car jack, such as a scissor jack, just in case they are needed.

A long pry bar could lift one end of the machine far enough to put a block of wood under it, before doing the same at the other end. Then you start “jack and pack” until the pallet truck will go underneath..

When you get home, with the box on the floor, weight can be reduced by dismantling the box and removing any “Extras” such 4 jaw chuck, Faceplate, Steadies, etc, even the 3 jaw off the spindle.

If you do use an engine crane, be careful how the sling is routed, so that no shafts get bent.

Do not knot slings, which should be adequate for the job, preferably 1 ton capacity.

Avoid rope like the plague, unless you are ABSOLUTELY sure of its capacity and condition.

Once the load is clear of the floor, keep it low.  As long as it just clears the floor, the centre of gravity is low, and risk of toppling is minimised, but not removed, so still be very careful.

Better to be slow rather than injured or late (As in dead).

Hope that this is some help

Howard

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

The risks and physical difficulty are such that you might be better off practically, and not much worse off financially, paying for it to be delivered properly.

[john fletcher 1Participant @johnfletcher1]

About 20  years ago, a company by the name of ‘Palletways’ would move a similar machine, lathe or milling machine, provided it was on a pallet anywhere in England for £60. Th drivers were extremely helpful, they had blocks of wood as packing and were amazing with the pallet truck. Obviously the price will be much higher now. I suggest giving them a ring . John

[Ex contributorParticipant @mgnbuk]

I would ask Warco how it comes.

My GH600 was delivered by a pallet delivery service in partially dismantled form – the lathe was in a purpose made crate that had pallet truck raisers, but this shipped strapped to a standard Europallet. The cabinet stand came in two carboard boxes that were strapped on top of the lathe crate. The delivery driver brought the pallet down my tarmac drive to the garage doors.

Easy enough to build up the cabinet base and dismantle the lathe crate. Less so to get my engine hoist in place to lift the lathe off the pallet(s), which prevented the engine hoist legs from getting under the machine. It took a couple of awkward part lifts to get the plywood base that the lathe was bolted to out and then get the pallet clear – only then could I get a “proper” balanced lift from a sling halshed around the bed web nearest the chuck + a piece of round bar held in the chuck bearing against the strap to stop the machine rotating backwards (overhung motor). Had a bit of a fight getting the engine hoist over a shallow step into the garage from the drive, then easy enough to position the lathe on the cabinet, then the whole lot could be lifted & moved into position. This was with machine that came out around 220kg on the stand – I knew about it when I had finished and really would not want to do this with a half tonne plus machine.

Were I doing this at ex-work it would have been easy – 3.5 tonne capacity JCB Teletruk !

If it is shipped already mounted on the stand it will be very top heavy & require carefull handling – if it starts to fall you won’t stop it (and could be seriously injured if you instictively tried to do so) and there will be damage.

Getting it delivered and positioned by someone who has the right kit, the right experience and the right insurance may work out cheaper than damaging the machine or yourself (or both) trying to do it yourself. And if they muck it up, it is their responsibility to make good your loss

Nigel B.

[Mark SlatterParticipant @markslatter13251]

Thank you for the replies everyone, I really do appreciate it! There is much to think about. The lathe will be mounted to its stand, although secured to a pallet. It’s “unfortunate” in that it weights just over 500kg, and thereby requires a much more expensive service than a simple pallet delivery. Perhaps the wise choice is to go for the delivery option and avoid a costly mistake.

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

If you’re up north, try Landylift

[Mark SlatterParticipant @markslatter13251]

I’m further South, thank you for the recommendation though. The lathe will be collected from Warco, Surrey area and delivered to my workshop near Stratford-upon-Avon.

[Stuart Smith 5Participant @stuartsmith5]

Mark

I are you buying this direct from Warco?

I bought a WM 290 from them (well actually 2 – the first had a fault and was replaced by them). It is only about 350kg , but was delivered without the stand attached and boxed up and fastened to a pallet.

Palletways website says their full size pallets can carry up to 1000kg, so they should be able to move your purchase if Warco are unwilling to do that.

Stuart

[Martin ConnellyParticipant @martinconnelly55370]

Getting it into the van is probably harder than getting it out. You can chock up a tail lift to support the weight at home and have a suitable A-frame gantry put up by a local scaffolding company positioned to get the lathe down with a 1 tonne chain hoist. Scaffolding is relatively cheap for small jobs like this.

Martin C

[Clive FosterParticipant @clivefoster55965]

At 500 kg and change the lathe is within the capacity of the common engine hoist crane.

As its on a pallet presumably Warco can fork lift it into an ordinary van or onto a flatbed truck. Once you get it home it ought to be possible to ease the machine right to the back of the van or truck and reach in/over with the engine hoist to lift the lathe off the vehicle floor. The vehicle could then be moved forwards and the lathe dropped down to be moved. Either on the engine hoist arms or onto a separate shifting thing. Things are going to be very tight vertically with an ordinary van but I think it doable. Did this fairly recently with a Boxford on a very hefty wooden bench. Scary factor near zero until Mr Purchaser unilaterally decided to ignore my advice with near disastrous consequences.

I’d prefer to use a a flatbed truck. More vertical clearance and you can stand up whilst adjusting. But you may need to block up the engine hoist on a pallet or similar to help with the lift angles.

But I’d prefer an A frame gantry. Google implies that they can be hired for between £100 and £200 a day complete with chain fall hoist. As usual the hire folks websites are remarkably unhelpful when it comes to figuring actual costs in advance.

Frankly using professional gear invokes a vastly more comfortable warm and fuzzy feeling than the adrenaline rush invariably associated with wondering whether combining creative inspiration with what’s lying about really is up to the job!

Clive

[Andy StopfordParticipant @andystopford50521]

Have you checked how much Warco would charge? £800+ seems steep for what is a fairly unexceptional load.

If you do decide to go for the hired luton, and can find one with a suitable tail lift (they’re usually pretty flimsy, and sometimes won’t lift the rated weight), then take great care with how you secure it in the van.

Most hire vans don’t have proper strakes along the side, usually just a couple of perforated strips which are just screwed to the plywood/plastic sides. They aren’t strong enough for this purpose – put it crosswise behind the cab, and secure it thoroughly.

You might find a removal company who would do it – after Christmas/New Year is usually a dead time in the business and they may do it for a cost covering price. It’s not much heavier than a full size grand piano, though I wouldn’t care to try moving it on piano wheels (a small wheeled frame), a pallet truck or scaffold pole rollers (safest) would be better.

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

Is that £800 Warco’s delivery fee or someone else’s?

May I suggest before going any further, if you’ve not already done so, reading Warco’s own web-site, linked above here? It has a comprehensive delivery advice section, including stating that heavy machine tools are delivered off their cabinets because they would be too top-heavy otherwise.

It may be expensive but at least the company will match the carrier to the goods.

It is though, the buyer’s responsibility to mount the machine on its stand once delivered. Warco suggests hiring an engine-crane though having used those in various situations I am not convinced they are always the best tool, but are more often the best in the circumstances.

It’s a costly machine-tool, if it falls over it will cost you a lot for the repairs; if it falls on you, you are more difficult to mend. Get it done properly – cough up and let the supplier arrange the delivery.

 

 

[Paul Mills 4Participant @paulmills4]

If you can get it on a pallet, online pallet companies charge around 120 quid per pallet with vat, probably cheaper than hiring a luton  van for a day and you avoid all the stress and risk involved in moving it pallet delivery drivers will usually drop pallet where you need it the one I use normally takes 2 days after pick up to get it here, scottish borders, cost seems to be standard except for the  highlands , islands and northern ireland

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

Warco used to include delivery – has for all my purchases but maybe changed now. Unless it is an ex-demo model it wouldn’t be on its stand as they are gong to need to cram as many as possible into the shipping container.
500kg is quite small (though I think the stand is not actually included in that) . How about looking locally for a ‘man with van’, a transit is big enough, and if he has any experience he would know how to winch it up a scaff plank, though Warco should be able to help with a forklift.
Another option is a trailer. You could get a towbar fitted and buy or certainly hire a trailer inside that cost and you would have the towbar for future use too.

 

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Warco include delivery upto 500kg, this machine is listed as 520kg so priced per job.

At 6ft long it would be unstable on a standard full 1.2m x 1.0m pallet and also take up twice the floor (truck) space so most pallet delivery companies will charge more than a single pallet rate. Even more if the cabinet is on a separtae pallet or two. So at least one half oversize pallet 2.0m x 1.2m and whatever the cabinet needs.

Luton Van tail lift won’t be easy even if it can take the weight as you need the lathe across the whole width which leaves little room for a pallet truck and easy to roll off.

[Bo’sunParticipant @bosun58570]

Good morning Mark,

If you do end up paying for a carrier, check their insurance carefully.

[IanTParticipant @iant]

I moved a Victoria H0 milling machine using a (hired) twin-axle flat bed trailer, plus a 2 ton engine crane which was quite capable of lifting the machine high enough to get it on the trailer. My (105bhp) Peugeot did struggle on the M3 outside Winchester though! So perhaps some lateral thinking about how to find/rent a largish SUV with caravan hitch might offer an alternative?

As an aside, it seems that I’m now too old to hire ‘vans’ from my local commercial rental shop but I doubt there is an age limit when hiring trailers. Then it’s just a matter of finding that large vehicle (with hitch) and driver for the day. Worth looking around your Pub car park and asking who owns that big Toyota Hilux perhaps (for cash of course) or having a friend with a caravan maybe? 🙂

Regards,

 

IanT

[Clive FosterParticipant @clivefoster55965]

If its 6 ft (or more) long that completely rules out a Luton tail lift.

The aforementioned Churchill Cub was 5 ft x 3ft, very compact for a machine of that size, and we really didn’t have enough room around it to safely manoeuvre it in. Between three of us huffing and puffing with my friends wife playing loadmaster to make sure nobody got trapped and various improvised things to stand on we managed. But the extra length of the Warco will, I think, be just too much.

Reflecting on my experience with the Boxford on a bench a bit under 6 ft long I don’t think poking in with an engine hoist is going to work well. Certainly not for someone who lacks experience in handling this sort of weight. I have worked with a guy who was both somewhat experienced with heavy stuff and very cavalier in his methods who could probably have done it with an engine hoist. But my nerves will never recover!

My view is its either time for the professionals or a proper A frame gantry hoist like this :-

https://www.broughtonplanthire.co.uk/product/a-frame-gantry-4-0m-beam/

and a flat bed truck or, better, plant trailer.

The handling heavy things rules and experience really change once over around 100 kg / 250 lb in one lump.

Clive

[larry phelan 1Participant @larryphelan1]

Just my pennyworth,

Many moons ago I bought my Craftsman lathe from Chester and brought it back to Dublin in my Hi Ace van, no problem. The good folk at Chester loaded it into my van using a forklift, the machine on a wooden pallet and the two boxes for the stand .

We unloaded it on the pavement outside my house and slid it down six steps into my basement, using planks ropes and curses. An engine crane , from Machine Mart, was more than able to lift it onto its stand, so I dont see that you should have much problem using a van, just keep it low and tie it down well and take it handy. 500KG is not a great wt [unless it falls on top of you ] so it should be easy enough to move.

I did have the cost of the Ferry to deal with, but even so £800/900 is a lotta bread to move a lump of iron.

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