Living with an Amadeal (Weiss) VM32L

[Iain DownsParticipant @iaindowns78295]

One Man and his 1.1 Mills

[Iain DownsParticipant @iaindowns78295]

This thread will be a kind of review of my experiences with an Amadeal VM32L which I bought just before Christmas.

A kind of review, because my previous experience with mills consists of a few years with a CMD10 (Seig X1) micro / mini mill and some vague recollections of a big grey thing in the corner of the metal workshop at school.

The VM32L is roughly 10 times the man that the CMD 10 is (hence the 1.1 mills) and I don't feel I can compare this beast to others in the category, so not a review then!

I went down to have a look at the Mill in Amadeal's warehouse in London (200 miles from home) and Hugh was helpful in showing me the options. I decided in the end to go for an r8 version with a DRO kit from Weiss to follow – he didn't have and R8 DRO in and I prefered to wait than go for an MT3 version.

The mill arrived promptly when booked and, much to my relief, the driver had a motorised pallet truck (with brakes) which made short work of the trip down the steep drive round the back of the house. I'd be dreading that.

An hour or so with a brawny young assistant and an engine hoist and the machine was inside and in-place. The installation went pretty much to plan which is not what I expected!

It's a big beast. The table is 840x210mm with a travel of 580x200mm (or two feet by 8 inches for you old timers). Despite what the spec at Amadeal says, the book and machine claim the motor is 1.5KW (10 times the power of my CMD10).

Here it is with the table fully to the right

and to the left

There were some niggles.

Although it started up first time, the second time it did not. Investigation found that the wires to the fuseholder had come out of the push fittings. Part of the reason for this was that the fuseholder was loose so turned, but the wires weren't cramped correctly. a few minutes with a soldering iron fixed that and I've had no further issues.

The Y axis way protector tore a little when I first wound the table all the way forward. It looks like the paint was still wet when it was put on and it stuck to the paint. I've asked for a replacement.

More troubling was that some collets didn't fit. In particular my new 20mm collet didn't go in. Replacements from RDG also failed, but came closer.

What appears to be happening is that some of these R8 collets have a shallower keyway than the official spec (by up to 1mm). I appear not to be the only one with this problem, but High advised me that there was a set screw in the spindle which you could reduce the depth with which I've done. I now have one 20mm collet which fits and 3 which don't, but I don't want to reduce the pin more than I have to.

Iain

[Iain DownsParticipant @iaindowns78295]

So what's it like to use?

LOVELY!

As mentioned above I can't compare it to other machines in the same class, but my God it's wonderful after the CMD10.

What do I like (in no particular order)?

• I can reach the locks and turn them by hand.
• My hands are far enough away from the blue hot swarf that I'm not burned all the time.
• The POWER! Now I must admit that I have stalled it being a bit to fast with a 1.5mm DOC with a 63mm face mill, but wow!
• I'd like to say it was smoother than the CMD10 – and it is, but the CMD10 ended up quite reasonable after I'd had a go at scraping the ways and added some thrust bearings
• Big things are easier
• For some reason I find it easier to count turns and get some accuracy X and Y compared to the CMD10.
• The Z axis digital readout. Mind you I think they should put a light in it so you can see the reading more easily.
• The gas strut. I can move the head up quickly with one hand – the CMD10 (probably at 10% of the mass) took 2 hands – one to support the head and one to turn.
• The FINISH! More on this later.

One thing I wasn't expecting is just how big the clamps are, they actually get in the way when your making something smallish. Accordingly, my first projects are to build what I might call a CMD10 emulator – a bit like running a BBC micro emulator on a modern PC!

This is the final product

This is a piece of steel i bought a few years ago when I had ambitions above my station.

I clamped it to the bed and faced both sides in 3 passes (63mm face mill – the same type Jason's been playng with). This didn't work as well as I hoped as I had to move the clamps around and I ended up with some slight ridges as the clamping location and force changed. the first face was the worse and the plate clearly wasn't particularly flat.

Next I drilled and tapped the holes. There is no tapping on this machine, but I just set it to about 100 / 200 rpm, pulled down the handle and it tapped! At this point I didn't have a 6mm collet so this was in the drill chuck and spun in the chuck if I wasn't careful. I also had to be careful to hit the off button at the right time. I can see that a tapping reverser would have some value.

Here it is against the machine it is emulating

Don't know what the pegs were doing.

Once I'd completed this I used my new Coax Indicator to find the centre of the 12mm holes in the corner, and then counter drill with the (now working) 20mm mill to fit some slightly turned down M2 bolts. The Coax was snuck in as part of the New Mill budget .

Finally, bolt it down at the corners and take a couple of thou off in a finishing pass – 3 passes of about 2 inches width each actually. In the right light there are some mill markings on this, but I think this is more to do with my uneven turning of the handles. A power drive is on my todo list. What I found quite extraordinary is that you cannot feel the lines where the passes intersected. Which says to me that the front back tram is rather good. The face mill cuts mainly on the left hand edge so I think that there is a bit of rotation I could take out, though frankly, I doubt my ability to improve in much beyond what i came like.

I also made some T nuts with an M6 hole so I could use some of my existing clamps

I mentioned the finish above. The worst finish I've managed so far is better than pretty much everything I've done on the CMD10.

Oh – one of the downsides of this marvellous thing is the tidying up. I've had to significantly re-arrange the shed to fit it in, which means I have things (collets, clamps, hammers) better to hand, but the damn thing moves metal some much faster, I have to tidy up after every session, or it would drown!

In the few days I want to check the tram and the table accuracy. I shall post more!

Iain

[Ian Skeldon 2Participant @ianskeldon2]

Nice looking machine mate and swarf that Jason and Andrew would approve of.

[old martParticipant @oldmart]

You can get a pretty good idea of the tram accuracy by studying the finish on that plate you have faced.

[Iain DownsParticipant @iaindowns78295]

The challenge today was to work out how accurate the mill is. This in terms of the table and tramming.

The results were not entirely as I expected.

I took two sets of measurements. The first was to measure the height (more or less) below the spindle at 7 x 4 locations on the table.

in the X Axis that's 27cm, 18cm, 9cm to the left of centre and the same to the right (+ the centre of course) and from near the front at 0, 6cm, 12cm and 18cm towards the back.

The indicator was a compac micron indicator and the the indicator pin rested on a 6mm slip gauge, like this

This being 27cm to the left and 12cm back.

having run round these 28 locations, I then ran round the outside and through the middle to see how repeatable the measurements were.

I took the measurements and converted them to an offset from an average height

for some reason the very back of the table i rather low (that's a hair under 2 thou) and the right front corner a bit high.

The short form is that everywhere is within 2 thou (50 microns) of an average height and the middle and left of the table (if I ignore the back row), is more or less within one thou of an average.

I think that's probably reasonable, but would value input from more experienced machinists!

The next thing is to see how repeatable this measurements are. This image is the difference between the detailed measurements and the round the figure of 8 measurements.

Bearing in mind that that's in microns, I think that's pretty good in terms of repeatability, given the conditions were not exactly temperature controlled (outside shed with a fan heater!).

So what about the tram?

This is where I got a bit confused. The same set up was used as above, except the indicator was slid out from the spindle.

Same principle again – indicator needle resting on a slip gauge with readings at roughly every 45 degrees. I was making no attempt to be particularly accurate with this, but I did go round twice and the readings were mainly within a few microns. The indicator needle was roughly 9cm out from the spindle centre making the diameter about 180 mm.

This is the circle (sorry – you will need to use some imagination here).

so the left right tram looks good – 4 microns across 180mm sounds fair. Front, back is not quite so great with a lean of 40 microns in 180mm. You could move the front measurement up by up to about 10 microns or so, by pushing the column back (fairly hard). I honestly don't think I would make any attempt to improve this. except maybe by tightening up the rear bolts on the column – even then.

BUT. What I don;t get is how the 45 degrees settings are just wierd! Granted these were all taken with the slip gauge across the t slot, but still. Also I can't work out how we can have a circle with the height values at 0, 90, 180, 270. That's a saddle!

Interested in thoughts here.

Finally, I got out a disk brake I bought a few years ago for when I had to do some tramming – as it's meant to be pretty flat and tried that.

With results as below

Not quite the same results but a similar saddle shape.

Any comments would be welcome.

 

Iain

Edited By Iain Downs on 07/01/2020 20:13:50

[old martParticipant @oldmart]

The weight of the indicator is a factor when you are working in microns. 

You can eliminate errors with the brake disc by rotating it 180 degrees. It might work better if the main diameter was down instead of the boss. The faces could be checked with a micrometer for any thickness deviations.

Edited By old mart on 07/01/2020 22:06:56

[Iain DownsParticipant @iaindowns78295]

Thanks. Mr Mart.

I don't think that the weight of the indicator is affecting this – it's pretty much the same all the way round the the circle.

I did try rotating the brake disk by 90 degrees and testing at 20 degree intervals. However, the results make me think I need to do some more measurements.

I tried wobbling the disk (pressing up and down), but the readings only varied by about 5 microns.

IOain

[Iain DownsParticipant @iaindowns78295]

T slots.

in this machine the T slots are painted. Presumably to prevent oxidation (as you can't get to them to clean as easily).

However, this means I can't use the T slots as a baseline for lining up work pieces or vices.

Does the paint really give an advantage? Should I strip and if so, what stripper would work?

 

Iain

Edited By Iain Downs on 12/01/2020 10:13:01

[Anonymous]

Posted by Iain Downs on 11/01/2020 19:55:13:

in this machine the T slots are painted.

That seems a daft, and expensive, thing to do! Never seen it before. Many cheapo clamping sets contain a T-shaped blade. That, combined with a dirt cheap small paint brush works fine for me when cleaning. Every now and again I'll push a scrunched up kitchen towel down the slots to clean out very fine swarf.

Andrew

[Gavin Jones 1Participant @gavinjones1]

Dear Iain, thank you for taking the time to compile this initial review. I found it most interesting. I am seriously considering buying one of the Amadeal VM series of milling machines to compliment my Colchester Bantam lathe.

Two years plus down the road are you still pleased with your machine? Has it proven to be reliable? Have you required service/support/spares from Amadeal? If so, we're they still good to deal with?

Best wishes and thanks, Gavin

[Iain DownsParticipant @iaindowns78295]

Hey, Gavin, I kind of answered in your other thread, but here's a bit more detail.

I've not had to buy spares for the Mill, apart perhaps from the DRO which I ordered when I bought the machine. This was a bit of a fiasco, but I don't blame Amadeal for that is this was during the heart of lockdown and nothing was arriving from China. When it did arrive it was just the scales, sensors and a box – no supporting information at all. However, Hugh was able to get me some photos from the Weis factory on how they put them on which was at least a little helpful. I would recommend you order them fitted rather than the kit – I just didn't want to wait 3 months for a new machine to arrive.

I have had some problems with the spindle being pulled down on heavyish cuts without the lock being applied. The solution to that is simple. Lock the spindle for non-trivial cuts! I've also had issues with the cutter being pulled out of the collet as it cuts. Again, less aggressive cuts and tighter locking is the answer. It's a sign of the power of the machine that this happens and I think that's more or less a good thing.

I don't think it's perfect and I would not like to be trying to make something that HAD to have sub thou tolerences, but there again, I'm not sure I could on an industrial machine.

When I retire (please God may it be soon) and downsize, I would like to get a bigger lathe (probably used British Iron) to replace my minilathe, but I don't feel the need to upgrade the Amadeal machine. Though if someone was to give me a Bridgeport, I wouldn't turn it down.

Iain

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

If I was going to get serious about milling then that's the sort of spec I would go for

250 KGs though…

but bigger tends to be better

[Gavin Jones 1Participant @gavinjones1]

Iain, thank you very much – most helpful. Nothing you have said has put me off the Amadeal. I don't envisage a need to get under one thou' accuracy. The Weiss machines appear to have a nicer finish than some similar mills. I have a fairly large Àxminster drill press (bench mounted), it does the job well but lacks finesse and the paint is coming off, which makes it look a bit shabby (ironically, the paint on my 42 year old Colchester lathe has endured very well).

I can recommend retirement.

Thanks again, Gavin

[Gavin Jones 1Participant @gavinjones1]

Ady, it does look like a big beast for a home workshop but as you say bigger is better in this case. Better rigidity, less chatter etc…

Thanks, Gavin

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

'Despite what the spec at Amadeal says, the book and machine claim the motor is 1.5KW'

Probably the same as my similar mill. 1100W is the output power, 1.5kW is the input. My label and manual don't give the duty cycle, which on a hobby machine is unlikely to be continuous, so I assume 50%. Therefore I don't hammer the motor and give it plenty of time to cool down between heavy cuts. The motor is extra vulnerable to overheating because it's inside a poorly ventilated box with no fan. Allowing the motor time to cool off also protects the electronics, which are also naturally-cooled in a small box.

My machine has a brushed DC motor. These have better speed/torque characteristics than single-phase motors, but are inferior to modern brushless motors. Based on their specifications, I'd expect Ian's motor to have a small edge over mine in short bursts, and to outperform it noticeably as soon as stamina is called for. But it's still a hobby mill.

Rule of thumb, 1HP (750W) is enough energy to remove 1 cubic inch of mild-steel per minute. A little hard to do consistently with HSS which needs coolant, but carbide can take the heat provided the machine is strong enough and its motor can keep going without overheating.

Bottom line with hobby machines, don't overdo it!

Dave

[Gavin Jones 1Participant @gavinjones1]

Dave, thank you – good data. I tend to be quite cautious when machining (because of mechanical sympathy). I see quite a few makers now offer brushless DC. I guess switched reluctance motors will be viable soon (very good efficiency, variable speed and high torque at low speeds). Gavin

[Iain DownsParticipant @iaindowns78295]

Getting the mill into my shed and onto a bench was interesting. I believe I posted about it at some point. Something to be careful of is the ceiling height of your shed. My shed is a standard single concrete garage and it just fits in.

But the headroom it gives is marvellous (especially compared to the SX1 which is my first mill). I enjoy feeling smug when Quin (Blondihacks) complains about not being able to do this that or the other on her mill as it lacks headroom.

Iain

[old martParticipant @oldmart]

Looking at the photos, it immediately occurred to me that if anyone has a great shortage of room, the mill could be mounted on some type of rails to allow it to be slid sideways on the bench if the bed needed end clearance for a particular job.

 As for the paint, it might be possible to scrape it off the rear face of the slots with a Stanley knife blade. I had a problem with the slot face in the museum's drill mill, the slot which suited the 100mm keyed vises had a runout of 0.007" towards the left hand end. The travel was 500mm and I managed to mill it in two stages. This was only possible with a round column which was swung sideways enough in each direction for a cutter to reach the ends of the slot. Now the whole slot is within 0.001".

With 1hp available, you can get away with an 80mm shell mill provided you keep the feed rate slow and listen for the motor speed showing signs of labouring.

Edited By old mart on 02/04/2022 16:24:32

Edited By old mart on 02/04/2022 16:29:08

[Gavin Jones 1Participant @gavinjones1]

Old Mart, interesting point about the capability of a mill with a round column. I had convinced myself to go for a flat/dovetail column with gibs so I could raise/lower the head (to swop tool bits) and not loose my x/y position, but I had not thought of the type of job you mentioned. Two pals of mine have Warco round column mills (FV320-T) and rate them.

Re the slide out rails, I recall mounting a crusher in a process plant on rails so it could be moved out of its tight location for maintenance and repair.

Thanks, Gavin

[Author]

Posts