Lithium vs PTFE grease

[Sonic EscapeParticipant @sonicescape38234]

I'm looking for a grease for all the sliding parts of my lathe. From what I have seen, WD-40 has two types of grease, one with lithium and another with dry PTFE. But I can't figure out which would be more appropriate.
So far I have a this petroleum jelly grease but it doesn't stick well to metal. Is more like a solid soap. I have also a graphite based grease but is black and it doesn't look nice.

[Sonic EscapeParticipant @sonicescape38234]

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Which sliding parts of your lathe? Most lathes use oil to lubricate their slideways and other sliding parts. Usually hydraulic oil of about ISO 32 grade. These days you can buy special slideway oil for the ways that is a bit heaver and tackier. But ISO 32 will do the job.

The problem with greasing a lathe is the swarf sticks to it and forms a nice abrasive paste. Also the grease is too thick to get into the small spaces and lubricate between the sliding spaces.

Some lathes, eg Myford, have nipples on them that look like grease nipples but are actually oil nipples for use with an oil gun.

[David George 1Participant @davidgeorge1]

You should not use grease on a slideway. The best is slideway oil which gives the corect wear resistance and not collect swarf and dust etc as grease will. Any oil would do but not grease unless specified like rotary or linear bearings.

David

[NealebParticipant @nealeb]

…and if you buy a second-hand lathe like mine, where you find that someone has pumped grease into the tailstock oil nipple, you discover that the grease goes hard, becomes adhesive rather than lubricant, and the whole thing needs quite a lot of force to dismantle and clean.

Problem is to find a usable oil can which both allows you to push oil into the oil nipple and doesn't leak like a sieve when not being used!

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Have a look at what Warco sell, the range is aimed at machinists.

Different lubricants are good for different jobs, much dependent on viscosity – how sticky they are. Others factors are how hot they can get, and how much of a beating they'll take, before disintegrating.

• Grease, being sticky, is good for slow moving parts like change gears and suspension arms etc.
• Way Oil is more fluid than grease, but still sticky. It's good for slideways – lathe beds and so forth.
• Most lubricants are thin oils. Grease and sticky oils are slapped on occasionally, but this isn't good enough for fast moving surfaces like bearings. These require a constant supply of a thin oil, able to get very hot in an engine, or tough enough to resist the mashing delivered by a gearbox.
• Very thin oils are needed by light mechanisms like clocks. Ordinary oils are too sticky,, attract dirtm and gum up over time,

Machine tools aren't fussy. Lithium Grease is a high-performer and particularly good for hobby equipment because it doesn't damage plastics. EP (Extreme Pressure) gear oils should be avoided because they often contain an additive that attacks Copper, not good because machine tools often have Brass and Bronze components. Apart from that, almost any oil will do at a pinch. ISO32 Hydraulic Oil is a popular all rounder.

Plain oils without additives are safer than fancy-pants stuff. At the moment I'm using the tail end of a can of 20:80 motor oil, squirting it into all the oiling points before a session, splashing it on the bed, and wiping down with it at close of play. It was cheap and available without fuss when I needed it.

Change-wheels are re-greased before long runs, and I check the gearbox levels when I remember.

For some strange reason Myford fitted grease rather than oil points. As a result unreliable "common sense" leads many owners to cause rapid wear after blocking the oil-ways with grease. But this sort of booby trap is unusual, any oil frequently applied will do the job. Lathes aren't Formula 1 engines!

Dave

[Mike HurleyParticipant @mikehurley60381]

Agree with everyone else – don't use grease! For normal purposes (i.e. non-industrial) any reasonable light / medium oil will do, I bought a can (aerosol) of slideway oil years ago for a few £ and it still feels as heavy now as when I bought it – so a little goes a long way. But generally, I wouldn't get too uptight about it.

[peak4Participant @peak4]

Certainly not Petroleum grease/jelly.
The likelihood is that most or all of your machine will use oil as a lubricant, as others have said above, but not sure what's available where you live.
I would think that any agricultural or mechanical plant supplier would be able to sell you some basic long life hydraulic oil; my own Warco Gearhead 1330 lathe uses a universal 68 oil for gearbox, headstock and slides, whereas my Myford uses a 32 for most places.
If there is an exposed gear train to the left of the headstock, whilst grease might seem intuitive, I've found that motorcycle aerosol chain lube works well; the oily, rather than the waxy type. The solvent evaporates off leaving a clingy lubricant which doesn't fly off and quietens the gear train considerably; I would only use it if there is a decent dust proof cover, as it could quickly turn to grinding paste.

Whilst looking into your own machine yesterday, I came across this website, which will give you a good idea, and I'm sure you will be able to find local equivalents by other oil suppliers where you live
https://www.mobil.com/en/lubricants/for-businesses/industrial/lubricants/equipments/lathes_a1t41000004oq7veac

Bill

[Sonic EscapeParticipant @sonicescape38234]

Whilst looking into your own machine yesterday, I came across this website, which will give you a good idea, and I'm sure you will be able to find local equivalents by other oil suppliers where you live
https://www.mobil.com/en/lubricants/for-businesses/industrial/lubricants/equipments/lathes_a1t41000004oq7veac

Bill

All types of oils mentioned there are available in Romania. But unfortunately only in 20L container. Also they are quite expensive per liter. They must be of a higher quality or something. The nice part about them is that it is specified the toxicity level. They are all non toxic.

I did some research and here there are plenty of hydraulic oil types available. The most common viscosity levels are 32, 46 and 68. From different manufacturers. Ravenol for example looks like a good brand and they have all types. I'm thinking to buy 1L of ISO 32 from them. Or maybe ISO 46? The only thing I don't like is that the specs don't say a word about the toxicity. My father was an electrical engineer and he remembered that some mineral oils they were using were very toxic.

The Warco shop would simplify this problem of to much choices. But I think the shipping + custom tax will cost more that the oil. It would be interesting to know what are the viscosity levels of their oils.

But why the WD-40 PTFE is not good? I it has a thinner like the classic WD-40 oil so it will reach everywhere. And then it should turn into a dry film. So the swarf will not stick. Sounds like the ideal sideways lubricant.

While searching for oils I found a lot something called T90 manual transmission oil. This one is even cheaper. Every shop has it. It's viscosity is 160. I think this is the ideal oil to refresh the three oils baths of the lathe.

Thank you for all suggestions

Edited By Sonic Escape on 02/03/2023 14:08:07

Edited By Sonic Escape on 02/03/2023 14:13:41

[mgnbukParticipant @mgnbuk]

What machine are you refering to ? Knowing the machine would give more targetted replies.

Your initial query was for a lubricant for sliding surfaces, but now there is mention of "refreshing three oil baths" ?

Many machine tool gearboxes use hydraulic oils – 32 or 46 viscosity mostly. These should be obtainable from agricultural suppliers as well as industrial suppliers. Slideways are best lubricated with slideway oils, typically 68 viscosity, though I have come across machines that pass hydraulic oil from a gearbox to lubricate the slideways. Using an oil with a higher viscosity than recommended may lead to diminished performance from the machine – absorbing more power to turn gearboxes, for example.

If toxicity is particularly important to you, then AFAIK there are "food grade" hydraulic oils available. I don't have any recollection that hydraulic or slideway oils are are any more or any less toxic than other lubricating oils & didn't take any special precautions when using either type for work.

160 visocity oil would be way too thick for the size of lathe used in most home workshops. At my last employment we had only one milling machine that specified 160 slideway oil & that had a 10 tonne table loading !

"WD" products are great for displacing moisture & applying a light rust preventative layer – they are not serious lubricants.

Nigel B.

[peak4Participant @peak4]

I really wouldn't worry too much, and certainly wouldn't try and import something from the UK

Re. Warco oil viscosity, true they don't mention it in their adverts, or machine manuals, but the equivalent US Grizzly manual for the same lathe states the following;

Headstock Fluid Type………ISO 32 (eg. Grizzly T23963, Mobil DTE Light)
Gearbox Fluid Type……….. ISO 68 (eg. Grizzly T23962, Mobil Vactra 2)
Apron Fluid Type…………… ISO 68 (eg. Grizzly T23962, Mobil Vactra 2)

So I'd suggest that is probably the spec of the Warco oil(s)

I use a locally supplied 32 & 68 long life hydraulic oil(s), and I'm sure you should be able to pick up a cheap local equivalent.
Re toxicity, I wouldn't worry too much so long as you use normal workshop precautions, and don't use it as as a salad dressing in place of olive oil.

Some oils seems to be specified as "slideway" as they have additives to make sure they adhere to the machine slides, and don't get washed off with an aggressive coolant, but I've never found a major issue with home use, as I'm not bothered about machine down time for re-lubrication.
Before I picked up some specific slideway oil, I just used mineral based chainsaw oil from the local agricultural shop, but normal 68 hydraulic will work fine.

edit, Nigel and I were typing at the same time.
Yes 160 gear oils are likely far too thick for most small lathe applications.
I use it in the electric winch gearbox on the Landrover, but that only turns very slowly.

Bill

Edited By peak4 on 02/03/2023 15:38:37

[Sonic EscapeParticipant @sonicescape38234]

Posted by mgnbuk on 02/03/2023 15:32:08:

What machine are you refering to ? Knowing the machine would give more targetted replies.

Your initial query was for a lubricant for sliding surfaces, but now there is mention of "refreshing three oil baths" ?

My lathe is an AVM MAS 140. Initially I didn't considered to replace the oil.

Ok, then the rest is clear. I'll get some 32 and 68 oil. They are available everywhere.

[SamsarandaParticipant @samsaranda]

The AVM lathe looks a serious bit of kit, I am jealous. Dave W

[peak4Participant @peak4]

Posted by Sonic Escape on 02/03/2023 16:11:26:

My lathe is an AVM MAS 140. Initially I didn't considered to replace the oil.

Ok, then the rest is clear. I'll get some 32 and 68 oil. They are available everywhere.

Sorry I forgot to put up these links yesterday; just adding in case you've not seen them, though unfortunately don't mention lubrication.
I'd looked up your earlier photos on the forum.
MAS130
https://ia601004.us.archive.org/34/items/lathe-manuals/AVM%20MAS130.pdf

MAS165
https://ia601004.us.archive.org/34/items/lathe-manuals/AVM%20MAS%20165S.pdf

Was your lathe actually made in Italy, or is it a re-badging exercise , in the same way that Warco import far eastern lathes?

If that is the case, you might well find that there is a US Grizzly equivalent, albeit maybe an imperial version

Bill

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Sonic Escape on 02/03/2023 14:06:53:

…

…

The only thing I don't like is that the specs don't say a word about the toxicity. My father was an electrical engineer and he remembered that some mineral oils they were using were very toxic.

…

Your father probably meant Transformer Oil. Old transformer oil was very nasty, and often caused trouble because it was sold cheap to bargain hunters. Looked like ordinary clean oil, but was toxic, especially Dioxins.

New ISO32 and 68 are safe, but I try to keep oil off my skin. Might cause a rash.

Dave

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

Posted by Hopper on 01/03/2023 23:35:50:

Which sliding parts of your lathe? Most lathes use oil to lubricate their slideways and other sliding parts. Usually hydraulic oil of about ISO 32 grade. These days you can buy special slideway oil for the ways that is a bit heaver and tackier. But ISO 32 will do the job.

The problem with greasing a lathe is the swarf sticks to it and forms a nice abrasive paste. Also the grease is too thick to get into the small spaces and lubricate between the sliding spaces.

Some lathes, eg Myford, have nipples on them that look like grease nipples but are actually oil nipples for use with an oil gun.

I think you mistyped. Normally ISO 68 grade oil is used on slideways and open gears. The ligher ISO 32 is used on spindles shafts and enclosed gears.

Robert.

[Sonic EscapeParticipant @sonicescape38234]

Posted by peak4 on 02/03/2023 16:40:30:

Posted by Sonic Escape on 02/03/2023 16:11:26:

My lathe is an AVM MAS 140. Initially I didn't considered to replace the oil.

 

Ok, then the rest is clear. I'll get some 32 and 68 oil. They are available everywhere.

Sorry I forgot to put up these links yesterday; just adding in case you've not seen them, though unfortunately don't mention lubrication.
I'd looked up your earlier photos on the forum.
MAS130
https://ia601004.us.archive.org/34/items/lathe-manuals/AVM%20MAS130.pdf

MAS165
https://ia601004.us.archive.org/34/items/lathe-manuals/AVM%20MAS%20165S.pdf

Was your lathe actually made in Italy, or is it a re-badging exercise , in the same way that Warco import far eastern lathes?

If that is the case, you might well find that there is a US Grizzly equivalent, albeit maybe an imperial version

Bill

I saw the links, thank you. Not the same model but I don't think that there are too many differences.

I'm not familiar with the lathe market but I would be surprised if this one is from Asia. The seller lived in Italy for a few years and bring it from there. It is possible to be an genuine Angelini lathe. I looked carefully for any clues because I'm curious how old it is. The MAS1xx family dates back at least since late '70s. The only relevant marking is a "Made in Germany" on the chuck.
One interesting details, there is a QR code on a cogwheel! And I'm almost sure that this late is older than QR codes.

 

 

 

Edited By Sonic Escape on 03/03/2023 21:58:19

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Sonic Escape on 03/03/2023 21:57:02:

Posted by peak4 on 02/03/2023 16:40:30:

Posted by Sonic Escape on 02/03/2023 16:11:26:….

…

…

I'm not familiar with the lathe market but I would be surprised if this one is from Asia …

Lathes.co.uk identify MAS as Czechoslovakian. The boxy look appeared during the late 1950s and is still current. I'd expect it to be well-made – lots of communist era stuff was competitively priced because they were short of western currency.

Dave

Dave

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Posted by Sonic Escape on 02/03/2023 14:06:53:

While searching for oils I found a lot something called T90 manual transmission oil. This one is even cheaper. Every shop has it. It's viscosity is 160. I think this is the ideal oil to refresh the three oils baths of the lathe.

Don't use gear oil in your lathe. Depending on grade and additives it can attack brass and bronze components. And it smells bad! Plus as pointed out already is too heavy in viscosity.

If you can buy hydraulic oil where you live, that will do the job perfectly. ISO 32 for all the oil bath cavities. And you can use it on the slideways too. Or you can go to ISO 64 for the slideways and it will stick to the ways a bit better maybe. If you want to buy hydraulic oil cheap, it is often sold as air compressor oil at hardware shops etc.

It is not critical. I still have my father's old lathe that has been lubricated exclusively with car or motorbike engine oil since he bought it in the 1950s. It is still in very good condition with no sign of excessive wear.

One other lubricant I like to use is motorcycle spray-can teflon chain lubricant to put on the change gears on the lathe. Put it on and let it dry overnight. Then it does not fling off and make a mess, and swarf does not stick to it. Your WD40 silicon spray might be good for these gears too. But I don't know about how it would lubricate the slideways.

And, no, mineral oil is not toxic. Used engine oil can be toxic, due to the dirty contaminants from combustion that it contains. But fresh oil is safe to use.

Edited By Hopper on 03/03/2023 22:52:48

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