Lithium Ion Batteries

[JohnFParticipant @johnf59703]

Hi I have seen a lot of info about "zapping" nicad batteries that appear dead—is it possible to do the same with Li-Ion batteries?

Have a 18 month old battery from an AEG drill and gone duff — although advertised as 3 year g'tee I now find it does not cover the batteries !!

Anyway any info advice welcome — or do I have to bite the bullet??

Out of my depth with electronic wizardry!

Thanks John

[JohnFParticipant @johnf59703]

[Sub MandrelParticipant @submandrel]

As far as I know, it isn't and Li-ions may well overheat and catch fire if shorted. The 'filament' growth in nicads is specific to their chemistry. Lithium cells fail due to mechanical degradation of the electrodes due to repeate3d dimensional changes, so life is more closely related to number of charge/discharge cycles than anything else.

As for longetivity, I have some 30 year old Ever Ready sub-c nicads that still hold a few hundred mAh of charge!

Neil

Edit: Those nicads were for my Tamiya XR311, which I had when about 15 or 16, and they were second hand then, so probably well over 35 years old. Is this a record?

Edited By Stub Mandrel on 15/08/2012 21:53:44

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

If I was you I would look for a NiMH replacement

They seem to be almost indestructible

My Li-Ion setnav battery is long dead, but my NiMH moby phone still works fine, although it does discharge faster than 5 years ago when it's made to work hard

[David LittlewoodParticipant @davidlittlewood51847]

This book:

**LINK**

has a very useful guide to zapping NiCd batteries which appear dead; involves passing a very high current through them for a second to reform the crystal structure.

Li-ion batteries are totally different and need very specific management of their charge/discharge cycles; they can be terminally damaged if they are charged above about 4.2 V (from memory, do check!) or discharged below about 2.5 V (ditto). The above book has the correct figures, but it's not to hand.

David

[Anonymous]

As has been stated, you cannot 'zap' lithium batteries. Lithium batteries do not suffer from dendrite growth, so 'zapping' will not achieve anything useful.

Early lithium batteries contained metallic lithium, so the results of overheating could be a spectacular fire. The best part of 20 years ago I designed a laboratory grade battery monitor system for NiMh and lithium batteries. When we visited the client (multinational battery company) they had all their lithium batteries outside in steel shipping containers. Apparently they'd had so many fires that the local fire brigade insisted that all the lithium batteries must be outside. As far as I'm aware the newer lithium battery chemistries do not contain lithium metal.

Lithium batteries generally require a CC-CV charging regime; that is constant current up to a certain voltage, followed by constant voltage to end of charge. One problem is that the end of charge voltage needs to be accurately controlled, better than 1%, which has proved to be difficult to achieve in integrated form, across temperature, and at reasonable cost. See here for a discussion **LINK**.

Regards,

Andrew

[Chris CourtneyParticipant @chriscourtney72250]

As Andrew says it is not a good idea to try and “zap” Lithium Ion batteries, they really don’t like being mistreated.

About 10 years ago I worked on an industrial estate adjacent to a company who manufactured mobile phone batteries, including Lithium batteries. One Friday afternoon we heard their fire alarm go off and looked outside to see a small amount of smoke coming out of a vent on the roof. Apparently a fork lift operator had dropped a pallet of lithium battery cells. Within ½ hour the entire roof of this new 50,000 sq ft factory had collapsed and a huge column of multicolour smoke and fire was pouring out. The by the end all that remained was the twisted outer wall. Fortunately we were up-wind about 400m away and were told to stay put by the Fire brigade. I have never seen such an intense fire, with huge amount of multicoloured smoke, it would change from white to black, and then purple as the fire reached various stores of different chemicals. People and schools up to 10 miles downwind were being warned to stay inside.

Because Lithium reacts violently with water to produce Hydrogen, the Fire brigade more or less had to just wait until it burned out; they sprayed water on the office areas and the outside walls, but couldn’t use water on the actual factory space.

I’ve worked with a number of battery charging systems for various battery chemistries, but after watching that fire, I’m always very careful with Lithium containing batteries.

Chris

[JohnFParticipant @johnf59703]

Well thanks for all the info guys, I will if need be buy another but did contact AEG again because I saw a lot of suppliers saying this battery was discontinued and AEG now seem to be more forthcoming — time will tell and I will post the end result.

Andrew J thanks for that link makes reading–quite a bit over my head but will read again to get a better understanding — but zapping is not an option—thanks!

Adi, my last drill had Nicads and it is a thought, the supposed advantage of Li-Ion is full power to discharge point which is true but unlike Nicad they just stop ! no warning like Nicad where the drill slows progressively, if you pause and run again it give you enough recovery to say extract your drill bit but thats about it you must recharge

regards to all John

[JohnFParticipant @johnf59703]

All is well AEG came up trumps and restored my faith, they sent me a new replacement as a gesture of good will. So I'm pleased to say thanks to them and to everyone who replied.

Regards to all John

[Sub MandrelParticipant @submandrel]

Result – andd full mks to AEG.

Neil

[Daemon SteveParticipant @daemonsteve15160]

I know nothing or less about the technology behind these batteries but please tell me, how in the testing process up until they were deployed out in the companies and was the faulty scenario not discovered? Surely the best minds in the lithium-ion battery business did all the testing they could possibly come up with and they still missed the fact they were building a battery that could fail? Hmm.

[michael howarth 1Participant @michaelhowarth1]

A couple of months ago I replaced my laptop battery with a new Lenoge battery. Lenoge is a reputable company which are apparently fitted to Dell computers as original equipment. The cells are manufactured by Samsung. Yesterday I received an e-mail telling me that my money has been refunded and not to use the battery but dispose of it according to the correct protocol. Fair enough, I thought, I shall get a new one. Then it occurred to me, which replacement battery should I buy and what guarantees are there that it is safe? Are there any foolproof makes out there?

Mick

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Thanks Mick,

You just made me spot a post from 2013 that was a sneaky first and only post with a link to a dodgy moneymaking website dressed up as a link to lithium batteries.

Neil

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Mick,

I know not, but take the warning seriously, my dad told me to day that a couple of his boating friends have set fire their benches during experiments with charging lithium batteries (mind you he's a luddite who would probably use NiFe cells if he could get them and is suspicious of DEACs

Neil

[Geoff TheasbyParticipant @geofftheasby]

I may have mentioned this before, but it bears repeating. Using the correct charger on L-ion batteries is CRUCIAL. The recent Samsung battery problems appear to be due to manufacturing matters, but e-cigarettes in particular are prone to catching fire, mainly due to 'any old' charger being used on them. They must also be scrapped by a competent battery disposal organisation, or a suitably licensed retailer. Do not throw them in the bin!

Geoff

[BC ProfParticipant @bcprof]

Before you even consider mistreating a LiPoly battery I suggest you Google Li Poly battery fire ( but sit down first .)

Ignore the " hit it with a hammer " examples , just watch what happens when cells are not correctly charged .

Well documented cases of fire caused by minor cell damage when used in model aircraft. where the cells do not have protective outer cases

Brian C

[Enough!Participant @enough]

Posted by Stub Mandrel on 15/08/2012 21:50:30:

…… Is this a record?

No, it's a battery. A record is a round thing with a hole in the middle (when it isn't being a thrust washer that is).

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

Have a look at a certain auction site (18650 batteries)

Search on 3000 mah

then 4000 mah

then 5000 mah

The 6000 mah

and so on….

Then suddenly realise why samsung phones burst into flames at random

Edited By Ady1 on 17/11/2016 01:17:14

[Martin King 2Participant @martinking2]

Hi All,

I have several Ni Cad DeWalt 14.4V & 18V batteries which are pretty much shot.

What is the (safe) procedure please for shorting them out to 'rejuvenate'? I have heard of this but not sure it is true?

Generally speaking electrics and I are not friends!

Regards,

Martin

[Clive HartlandParticipant @clivehartland94829]

I used to use a large wattage resistor and put it across the terminals and it would get warm/hot and leave until cool and then solder the terminals with a copper wire. The resistors of 25 Ohms and about 2 or 3 watts will do.

Dispose of them in the correct manner and dont dump them.

Clive

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

Posted by mick H on 16/11/2016 20:26:44:

A couple of months ago I replaced my laptop battery with a new Lenoge battery. Lenoge is a reputable company which are apparently fitted to Dell computers as original equipment. The cells are manufactured by Samsung. Yesterday I received an e-mail telling me that my money has been refunded and not to use the battery but dispose of it according to the correct protocol. Fair enough, I thought, I shall get a new one. Then it occurred to me, which replacement battery should I buy and what guarantees are there that it is safe? Are there any foolproof makes out there?

Mick

It's difficult to find exact figures but last time I saw figures there were about ten reports of Samsung phones catching fire out of how many millions? I think you are more likely to be killed by a lightning strike than have your battery catch fire unless you use the wrong charger or short it.

Russell

[michael howarth 1Participant @michaelhowarth1]

Russell……these are my thoughts although I was not aware of the exact statistics. A replacement battery might be a case of jumping from frying pan into the fire……or it might not! It seems to me that a proportion almost everything manufactured goes wrong somehow and who is to know where the next fault lies.

Mick

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

As far as the Samsung phones go, a number of the exploding batteries ocured on replacement phones.

Ian S C

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

IMO it's because the industry is trying to squeeze more and more out of less and less to try and stay ahead of, or keep up with, the competition

I got a good tablet to use mainly as an e-reader although it can even do CAD no problem (quad core)

They brought out a significant upgrade within 12 months, turning it into an amazing bit of kit, but many reviews said this new one could get really hot and was uncomfortable to handle (not Samsung btw)

Technology companies are really pushing at the limits of technology nowadays to achieve sales

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