leaded mild steel.

[mark smith 20Participant @marksmith20]

Does anyone know a source for leaded en1a square bar in 1″ sq and 1\2″ sq.(or metric near equivalent.) I only seen to see round and hexagonal bar.

Or is there an easy machining steel that machines as easy as the leaded en1A that i dont know about . This is for small quantities.

[FulmenParticipant @fulmen]

SG iron (ductile) machines like butter.

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

EKP Ken ions do square bar in En1a

[JohnFParticipant @johnf59703]

Try theses folks http://www.m-machine-metals.co.uk

I have used them and find their service very good.

[Fulmen]

On Fulmen Said:

SG iron (ductile) machines like butter.

On Fulmen Said:

SG iron (ductile) machines like butter.

But where have you seen it in small square sections that the OP wants?

For small square and hex <10mm I machine from round but unless you only need very little 1″ square then that is going to be wasteful of time and material. The usual EN3 that sq and rectangle comes in is not too bad to machine.

[mark smith 20Participant @marksmith20]

Thanks for the replies but still cant see any ? Iron is usually  very messy to machine. Im making some small wood planes ,i usually use brass but i thought leaded mild steel would be cheaper and just as easy to machine but seems hard to find in smaller quantities.

I see it mentioned on some suppliers sites but when you look further it is normal en1A and not the leaded version.

Some sites list free cutting mild steel but is that just en1a or leaded?

I found some 14 or 17mm hexagonal bar at around £18 for 1.1metres. But id prefer sq. as means more machining and waste. Still need to find 1″ though.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Generrally if it just says free cutting it will be EN1A, If it says leaded or has Pb after the EN1A or 230M07 then it will be leaded.

If you want leaded in those sizes then you will have to square up your own from 36mm or 18mm round from the likes of M-machine

SG Iron machines more like steel than grey cast iron but not available in bright squares of the sizes you want.

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

Kennions always just listed it as En1a free cutting but always warned you it was not suitable for welding because of the lead. It always machined beautifully. I’m not convinced that suppliers always bother about the Pb on the specification especially when they go on to state that it’s free cutting.

[mark smith 20]

On mark smith 20 Said:

… Im making some small wood planes ,i usually use brass but i thought leaded mild steel would be cheaper and just as easy to machine…

Just a thought but free cutting steels are very prone to rusting, more so than ordinary mild steel. So may not be very good in contact with wood or if frequently handled.

Rod

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

I’d try ordinary EN1A.   In EN1A-Pb Lead is added to mild-steel to improve cutting, fair do’s except Lead is poisonous (welding), and pricey.  Nearly the same free-cutting performance is provided in ordinary EN1A by substituting Sulphur.

Last time I bought EN1A-Pb it came from my local supplier who stocked it in the four sizes I wanted.  A few years ago, so maybe there’s a temporary shortage?  I can only find rod on the web tonight.

Dave

[Mark RandParticipant @markrand96270]

Note that EN1A/230M07 can be specified with lead, tellurium or neither and still meet the same standards the specification always includes sulfer. The steelmaker and/or stockholder add the -Pb, -Te or similar nomenclature and bar end colours.

The reason it isn’t recommended for welding is the risk of low strength welds, irrespective of any toxicity.

 

Most of this from ‘Macreadys Orange Book’

[mark smith 20Participant @marksmith20]

Thanks for the further replies. I have read so much conflicting info about en1a ,either unleaded or leaded, rusting quickly. Somestockists say it has good corrosion resistance.

Well in my experience i have a draw full of bits of steel bars and i looked and there is some pieces of leaded 1/2″ round bar that were partly worked ,next to some en8a bar. Both been there same length of time(years) ,no rust on the leaded but the en8 is covered in rust.

The same goes for weldability, is it the sulphur or the lead that is bad. I know sulphur causes weld porosity what does lead do apart from be toxic when vapourised?? Does it also cause porosity? I dont intend welding it so not bothered about that.

Martin Kyte, is normal unleaded en1A supposed to be free cutting or not? The sulphur can cause problems with welding so doesnt automatically mean that it may be leaded from Kennions .

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

Kennions always warned against welding specifically because of the lead.

My point is Kennions always called it Free Cutting En1a

[DiogenesParticipant @diogenes]

EN1a is correctly called ‘free-cutting’ whether it’s leaded or not.

I find any differences in ‘ease’ of machining between leaded or unleaded are hardly noticeable in the home w/s, certainly less than the difference, say, between a ‘new’ cutter, and one that is 3 months old..

For the parts you describe, I wouldn’t get too hung-up about it.

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

Why are people worried about the lead or sulphur in steels? Yes, those are poisonous in themselves or in compounds you can absorb, so you should take sensible precautions with them; but the quantity in steel is tiny and you are not evaporating it or turning it into soluble forms. You have far more hazardous materials around your home than leaded steel or bronze.

There is a grade of steel containing, if I remember rightly, tellurium instead of lead. It is intended for even faster cutting to high-grade finishes on automatic machines, but it is probably expensive; a specialist alloy I have never seen listed by our suppliers.

One aspect of free-cutting steel is its lower tensile strength than others, but that is not likely to worry us too much; and higher-strength alloys are readily available when we do need them.

[Nigel Graham 2]

On Nigel Graham 2 Said:

Why are people worried about the lead or sulphur in steels? Yes, those are poisonous in themselves or in compounds you can absorb, so you should take sensible precautions with them; but the quantity in steel is tiny and you are not evaporating it or turning it into soluble forms. You have far more hazardous materials around your home than leaded steel or bronze.

…

Nigel’s comment illustrates why employers are required to do Health and Safety risk assessments and supervise work with a ‘competent person’.   He’s right, but…

The risk to health of Lead, Sulphur, Cadmium. Zinc and various other nasties in a small workshop is very low.  We are unlikely to do anything that releases them, and if we do, our exposure is minimal.  Cutting EN1a-Pb is unlikely to release Lead, even if done on a large scale in a factory.

Welding EN1a-Pb is hazardous though!  Lead boils at 1750°C, with plenty of vapour coming off at much lower temperatures.  Breathing it makes people ill!  A very large dose causes obvious symptoms fairly quickly, but what usually happens is Lead accumulates in the body and the consequences appear much later.   Lead damages the brain, so the first clue is victims becoming stupid in later life.

Doing a risk assessment reveals what, if anything, needs to be done.  In my workshop:

• no welding, so the risk is zero.
• I occasionally braze, but that’s done at a lower temperature.   The risk is close to zero.
• I cut fair quantities of EN1a but cutting doesn’t release anything.  With one exception, the risk is zero.
• The exception is grinding, but I rarely grind EN1a, and if I do, the quantity is small.   The risk is low.

Industry is different.  Scale matters:

• Several men welding EN1a-Pb on a large scale is significantly risky.  Counter-measures required.  Switching to unleaded EN1a or improved ventilation plus a breathing mask. Might also be worth testing blood regularly to be sure.
• Same issue and mitigations if grinding lots of EN1a-Pb.
• Large scale cutting produces lots of swarf.  Not smart to dump it in landfill because it rusts away, releasing Lead into the water table.   So disposal needs some care.

Two worlds, two different answers.  What’s OK in a small workshop and for some large scale processes, doesn’t apply across the board.

In industry, where the damage caused by assumptions can be enormous, UK H&S requires a risk assessment and a competent person.   ‘Competent person’ is a Health & Safety role, not a specific technical skill.   Usually means someone with skills and experience on the job, plus training in H&S, but sometimes might just be checking operators are following company policy.  H&S training covers how to assess risk and how it might be mitigated.  So a fully qualified welder isn’t automatically an H&S competent person.  He could become one quite easily, but only after more training, not needed unless required to take on the H&S role.

Keeping it in perspective, Model Engineering is a safe hobby#.   But that doesn’t mean we can ignore H&S entirely.  When my eyes are at risk, I wear safety glasses!   And I never meddle with gunpowder by candle-light!

Back to Mark’s question, EN1a is always free-cutting, the leaded version being extra good.  (No experience of Tellurium here!)   I think he can use any free-cutting mild-steel, and the H&S risk is zero, unless he welds or grinds it in quantity.

Finally, to be pedantic, whatever Mark buys is unlikely to be EN1a.  That’s a long gone specification, no-one makes it!  What we get is a similar steel, like 230M07.   Unless something special is going on, it doesn’t matter.

Dave

# last week, I indulged Amateur Radio by putting up a 8 metre pole at the end of the garden and stringing a wire antenna from it into the house via an insulated loop attached to the gutter.   To reach the gutter, I stretched out of an open top-floor window: rather easy to fall 6 metres on to a concrete patio, especially as my muscles are wasted, concentration poor, and I get dizzy spells.  Roped myself to a double bed aware that it might not  control a fall sufficiently.  Radio amateurs periodically die by falling off towers, roofs, and trees, or by having heavy antenna parts drop on them from a great height.  Also, shocked by static electricity and electrocuted when antennas or aluminium ladders contact power cables.  When valves ruled, equipment ran at voltages way above mains.   Amateur Radio is far more dangerous than Model Engineering, where I don’t know of any fatalities, yet!

Not sure what the most dangerous ordinary hobby is?   Horses or motorbikes maybe.

Dave

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

I think the issue with welding leaded steel is that you get a bad weld.

What you don’t want to do is weld galvanised steel, the zinc fumes make you proper poorly.

[mark smith 20Participant @marksmith20]

Well ive ordered a couple of short lengths of normal en1a or 230M07, will see how it machines . Apparently the leaded version is hard to get in anything Square above 15mm. Leaving hexagonal or round as your usual choice.

[Dave HalfordParticipant @davehalford22513]

Metal wise model engineering is at the bottom of the food chain where we get the leftovers.

The only reason to weld is structural. The reason free machining steels are not available in square section is that shape tends to be used for fabrication work where sooner or later the welder comes out. It doesn’t get fed into a machining centre for a pretty finish, just round stock. If it did we could get some.

I think the OP has to either go back to Brass or try ordinary square mild steel section and machine with decent Aluminium grade carbide cutters at a slowish speed to get round the teary nature of mild steel, then linish it if required.

That may switch the price point back to brass or not.

 

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

At least one of the exemptions for added lead in steel expired last year (July 2024). This means commercial and industrial applications can’t use it. Without those markets it’s not going to be made.

A big issue at the moment is proposed bans on Per- and polyfluoroalkyl substances (PFAS). These are pre-cusors to PTFE and most of the bans are poorly written and could be considered as a ban on PTFE and similar products…….

Robert.

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

I sometimes wonder if the bans and other regulations are ever written by anyone with any genuine experience in the industries concerned!

Would an industrial workshop weld leaded steel? Unlikely, I would think, because industry is much more careful about selecting the right materials for the work. Anyway the flux fumes or smoke from any dirt near the weld are probably the greater hazard than the lead in the steel, hence using fume extractors or appropriate PPE.

 

Welding galvanised steel has long been known as hazardous, but I do wonder how many people have poisoned themselves, or contributed to other diseases, by doing so. Perhaps not in the trade, but occasional users like perhaps farmers, amateur vehicle restorers and yes, model-engineers.

For I lost a long-time model-engineering friend to lung cancer, and I have wondered what triggered it. He had long since stopped smoking but he was still a committed welder-and-and-angle-grinder type, and apart from wearing eye-protection, not usually too fussy about protecting himself and anyone and anything nearby from welding fumes (galvanised or not), arc UV-glare, grinding dust, solvents, fuels and other niceties.

 

As far as corrosion of dumped steel goes, that only releases the alloying metals back into the ground. Obviously we should not be complacent and bury everything and anything, which anyway wastes valuable materials; but in many areas, especially clay-rich, the soil contains traces of all manner of metallic compounds you’d not want on your cornflakes, entirely naturally. They are the natural breakdown products of rocks, particularly the igneous ones like granite and basalt, and ore-bodies. That is not an excuse for suddenly being frightened to use your basalt surface-plate and your wedding-gift bone-china, of course!

I suspect liquid chemical wastes such as old oils, solvents and biocides are the far more serious artificial pollutants than any metals, which of course should be recovered for re-use.

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