Lathes/Mills in Canada

[Matt Stevens 1Participant @mattstevens1]

Hi All,

So in the UK I was used to using a Chester 920 Lathe and a Chester milling machine……now I have moved to Canada!

So I want to setup a machine shop again and need a starting point because it seems almost all the manufacturers are different and I don't know whats top end, mid range etc…..there are manufacturers like grizzly, busy bee etc.

Any advice?

[Matt Stevens 1Participant @mattstevens1]

[MuzzerParticipant @muzzer]

Haha. I just moved back the other way last summer (from Vancouver).

I bought a used (metric) Taiwanese Bridgeport clone out there but otherwise refrained from buying machines. I understand that Grizzly, Busy Bee etc are different flavours of the same machinery you see in the UK. Unless you buy an old US machine, you'll find pretty much the same Chinese gear anywhere you go.

You will notice that South Bend lathes go for silly money over there. Some sort of nostalgia thing I suppose. If you'd known, you could have taken some back over with you and cleaned up. And the auctions seemed to be a very expensive way of buying equipment, certainly on the West Coast. New equipment is expensive over there, even if it is Chinese or Indian and in some cases I found it cheaper to buy stuff in Blighty and pay carriage, duty and taxes. I suspect the local (Mercan) market drives up the floor price for bottom end gear.

Bought a few things from Busy Bee that were on offer (rotary table and a few odds and sods) but generally their stuff seemed pretty low quality, straight off the boat. Mostly from China and India but sometimes they have kept Vertex (Taiwan). I used KBC Tools a fair bit. They have a mixture of Chinese ("KBC Brand&quot and expensive Mercan gear. Of course, most stuff is imperial in N America. Their website is pretty crap like a lot of US companies but they do deals if you keep your eyes open. Grizzly Tools seemed sort of OK but although they will ship to Canada, you get well and truly stiffed at the border by the Canadian customs. Most of their stuff seems to be Chinese or low end US. As you may have found already, some US companies simply won't sell into Canada. Besides, Canadians love cartels, bureaucracy and getting ripped off and it would be a shame to get in their way.

Where are you in Canada? Of course, there are one or two members out there who will doubtless pipe up shortly (JAS, where are you??)…

Murray

[Matt Stevens 1Participant @mattstevens1]

I am based over in Peterborough in Ontario…..about 1.5 hours away from Toronto.

So I wonder how easy it is to drive over the border and buy stuff and then drive back….at what point do you get stopped, goods checked and pay additional taxes?

So what I am hearing is….

– avoid South Bend due to high cost

– Busy Bee is ok but low end

– KBC is middle of the road?

– Grizzly tools is middle of the road?

Any other comments welcome

Thanks

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

Aswell as keeping up with this forum for straightforward model engineering you need to join HSM. That's Home Shop Machinist forum. Although mostly USA they have a lot of Canadians and Brits on it. You will see a number of existing threads with Canadians lamenting the difficulty of getting suppliers south of the border to deliver north and they will be able to advise of the tax and import problems but it does seem a lot moves accross the line. Often major US suppliers do free shipping or discounts but won't ship over the border. So you may want to find a person on the south side who can take deliveries.

It is worth bearing in mind that the Chinese machines you are used to in the UK are all versions of the machines primarily designed for the huge American market. So you can find a close equivalent of andy Chester or Warco lathe/mill pus a few extra types that are not high enough demand to sell here. Grizzly are one of the better I believe and their website is very useful for manuals of far eastern made machines both their current stock and old ones. You can usually find a detailed manual close to the one you are looking at.

[Another JohnSParticipant @anotherjohns]

Matt – you'll have to come to the Kingston seam up on either August 8th or 9th – I'm verifying the date. Look for Battersea Ontario, look for the baseball diamond and drive from home plate to 3rd base, and keep going, you'll find the tracks there. (hint – if you, like me, know nothing of baseball, drive down the dirt lane, and you'll find the tracks in a back field)

Murray's got it pretty well sussed. Look also in ontario.kijiji.ca – lathes etc do come up fairly often, some even at a good price! There is also "King Canada", but it's basically the same stuff as Busybee Tools, which is certainly not junk, but you get what you pay for, but you know this, anyway.

I think that there's also a new/old club in Peterborough area??

My location is pretty close to Stephen Harper, the David Cameron of Canada, and am a member of both Kingston and Ottawa clubs.

John.

[IanTParticipant @iant]

I visit Canada quite often Matt (my Manager of some 40 years is a Canadian lady) and when I was in Canada last year I visited Busy Bee in Toronto. It kind of reminded me a little of Axminster over here in terms of their showroom layout (but not quite so large).

Whilst you can fall over wood working machinery all over the place over there (Canadian Tyre, Lee Valley etc) – I've seen very little in the way of metal working gear available – at least for amateur use. (Actually, I have seen Sherline machines at Lee Valley). You have to go look for it in this country but it's even scarcer over there from what I've seen

So if you actually want to take a look at something before you buy it (always advisable in my view) then your choices may be a bit limited. If you've not already done so, I'd suggest you go and look at what Busy Bee have in their showroom and see if anything would suit. It's all priced in Canadian $$ and (in Canadian terms) local to you.

Regards,

IanT

PS We know Peterborough well & still have family there. Nice area. Wife's parents retired to Buckhorn.

[Enough!Participant @enough]

Posted by Matt Stevens 1 on 28/07/2015 20:32:57:

I am based over in Peterborough in Ontario…..about 1.5 hours away from Toronto.

So I wonder how easy it is to drive over the border and buy stuff and then drive back….at what point do you get stopped, goods checked and pay additional taxes?
So what I am hearing is….
– avoid South Bend due to high cost
– Busy Bee is ok but low end
– KBC is middle of the road?
– Grizzly tools is middle of the road?

Any other comments welcome

 

Busy Bee have two lines … less expensive and the more expensive CX-series – same stuff but painted white and supposedly better finished. When I say "supposedly", I don't mean that in a derogatory way …. it's what BB says but I have no experience.

My mill (WM18 lookalike) was one of their basic line before they came out with the CX line and it's been absolutely fine. I had their minilathe before that which was OK, my main problem with it was that it was really "mini" a 7 x 8 which might be OK if a person is really stuck for room but is a pain in the neck if you aren't. I picked up a Myford after that, ran with both for a couple of years, then dumped the minilathe.

Grizzly was actually started by the same guy who started Busy Bee. After starting the latter he sold it to a family member (brother I think) and moved to the US and started Grizzly. For years they had an agreement not to sell into each other's market. It was only a few years ago that changed. Yes, you will pay high shipping charges (this stuff is heavy), duty and taxes upon entry into Canada (this stuff is manufactured in the Far East and doesn't technically fall under NAFTA …. they might not worry too much for a few hundred bucks but for a few thousand they will).

On top of that the carrier will bring it in through a border crossing that is miles (perhaps several thousand) away from you. You have no option but to have him act as your broker with Canada Customs. He won't be cheap. This is where you can save some if you want to drive down and pick it up yourself (remember to include gas – petrol – the cost of renting a suitable vehicle and probably a night away from home if I recall where the nearest Grizzly store is). All the other customs duty and taxes are payable on the spot at the border crossing that you use. Right now, as I'm sure you know, the US/CDN exchange rate is garbage.

Peterborough isn't that far away from Toronto by Canadian standards, with decent highways and you could easily drive to Busy Bee's head office store and check for yourself. Not much further is KBC tools – but be aware that the latter is not open on Saturdays.

South Bend prices I couldn't say …. never checked them out. Myfords certainly go for some ridiculous prices but also for some very reasonable prices too if you keep your eyes open and have a little time. Some are real bargoons in fact. I suspect the same is actually true of South Bends but like I say, I never checked.

Keep an eye out on local Craigslist and Kijiji to see what turns up. Another possibility (never tried) is Accusize in Scarborough (East end of Toronto). The guy there, David Zhou, imports tooling from China – mostly small tooling but it's possible he might be open to one-off imports of specific machines. I'm pretty sure he has the contacts and is a nice guy to deal with.

If you need any further information on the local companies – addresses etc – leave me a PM. I'm in Mississauga. Jeff Dayman is in the southern Ontario area too so he might chime in with some advice.

 

…. Oh, and welcome to Canada!

Edited By Bandersnatch on 28/07/2015 22:32:59

[Jeff DaymanParticipant @jeffdayman43397]

I am a Canadian, in Waterloo Ontario. My advice in the Ontario machines market would be to watch Kijiji for used machines and stay away from Busy Bee and KBC for machine tools. There are a number of reasons for this that I won't go into here – suffice it to say that they sell some really iffy stuff and it is not easy to get problems fixed. Some of their early Chinese made lathes years ago were a horror show – I fixed or tried to fix a few with major headstock issues. Generally much better now, but not as good as ex-industrial US made machines. KBC are far better in terms of the machine quality and service, and great for drills milling cutters taps and dies etc. but still would not be my recommended place to buy machine tools.

If you buy an electronic caliper, buy it anywhere but Busy Bee – their supplier uses conductive black plastic for the electronic housing that bleeds the batteries dry while not being used. Save up your money and buy a genuine Mitutoyo caliper.

My South Bend lathe cost $800 about 28 years ago, and has given excellent service. They still come up for sale regularly in local papers and on Kijiji. This would be my first choice of method to acquire tooling. I would not try and buy large purchase tooling across the border. You will get hit with duty and possibly brokerage charges, HST (harmonized sales tax) and currency exchange rate which is high at the moment, cdn dollar much lower than par with US dollar.

There are several used machinery dealers in Toronto that occasionally have smaller machine tools for sale. Check your yellow pages or Google. JD

[Another JohnSParticipant @anotherjohns]

Matt;

Not knowing if you are a railway nut or not, here"s the Kingston web site:

**LINK**

Just FYI – John.

[Matt Stevens 1Participant @mattstevens1]

Thanks for all the comments guys…

Grizzly in the states is about 6:30 drive from Peterborough so not out of the question if it was worth while….

I really wonder if there is a way to get across the border without paying all the duty ???

I am not in a rush so can wait for the CAD to recover against the US as long as its not years away…..

Second hand is an option and if any of you guys come across something interesting in a commutable distance….give me a shout…I would appreciate that.

@John – not so much into railway, I am more interested in static steam engines like the Stuart models….im only a young wiper snapper as well at 36! I have my dad to blame for getting me into this …

Are there any model shows lined up in Toronto area? When I was in the UK, thy were great for checking out different manufacturers stuff

Thanks

[Jeff DaymanParticipant @jeffdayman43397]

I really wonder if there is a way to get across the border without paying all the duty ???

Don't even joke about it. Border cops are very serious about their jobs. There is no LEGAL way to import items from USA without paying at least the 13% HST tax. You will find yourself a guest in the Crowbar Lodge (jail) very quickly if you try to bring in goods without perfect sale and transport paperwork and or declarations.

If you do travel to USA and stay in USA for 24 hr you can bring back $200 worth of goods duty exempt, 48 hr stay – $800 worth duty exempt.

Please PM me regarding ME vendors and where you can see some steam in Ontario. Sadly there are no large ME exhibitions in Ontario like the ones in UK. There are a few railway clubs and an ME club in Toronto.

 

Edited By Jeff Dayman on 29/07/2015 04:11:09

[clivelParticipant @clivel]

Posted by Matt Stevens 1 on 29/07/2015 02:53:15:

 

I am not in a rush so can wait for the CAD to recover against the US as long as its not years away…..

Second hand is an option and if any of you guys come across something interesting in a commutable distance….give me a shout…I would appreciate that.

It could be a long long wait if you are waiting for the CAD$ to recover, but as you are not in too much of a rush then you may want to hang on for a second hand machine instead. Although South Bend has some sort of mythical status in North America, there are a number of other US made machines that are just as good if not better e.g Logan, Sheldon, Clausing etc. also worth considering are some of the Atlas models. Although some look down on them, in reasonable condition they may still be better than a poor quality example from the Far East.

As others have mentioned, one place to look is Kijiji but you should also consider Craigslist. Out here on the West Coast (Vancouver), Craigslist offers a better selection. But that is of course relative some weeks there is nothing and other weeks there are two or three machines to choose from. The prices are also all over the place. While I was still searching for a lathe, I missed by minutes, a pristine Myford ML7 with a range of accessories including both 3 and 4 jaw chucks for only $500. Conversely I have seen someone advertising the same clapped out South Bend week after week for $2500. One just has to be patient and check Kijiji and Craigslist every day. I waited nearly 6 months before finding something suitable – a 10" Logan in reasonable condition with chucks and accessories for $700.

Clive

 

Edited By clivel on 29/07/2015 06:21:56

[IanTParticipant @iant]

Hi Matt,

Just reading some of the Canadian feedback this morning.

Well I don't live in Canada, I just visit there to see family and friends. However, some of the comments I've seen are very reminiscent of the kind of thing you will see here in UK when this question is asked.

All of my machines are pretty old and include lathes, mills and shapers. I don't have any Asian machines but I do have a lot of Asian tooling. All of my machines have problems in one area or another, some of which I've fixed and others that I just live with (at least for now). I like "old iron" (think vintage cars! ) and in some ways, working on these older machines has become a hobby in it's own right. But it certainly isn't for everyone!

So, if asked by a new comer to metal working what they should look for in the way of machine tools, I would always suggest a new machine where their budget allows.

If you want to build small stationary engines, then you do not really need a large machine to do it on and the smaller Asian lathes & mills will be more than good enough in my view. I do a lot of my work on a 2.5" lathe. A Sherline (which Lee Valley certainly used to sell in their old shop in Toronto) or a Taig might also be an option for this work – although I'd want something a little larger myself. Have a look on the Sherline/Taig/Mini-Lathe websites for examples of other peoples work..

The quality of imported tooling has improved a great deal over the years and whilst I don't know the actual 'brand' sold at Busy Bee, they all looked pretty generic Asian to me e.g. Seig-like. There may be small differences in the detail but I suspect not too much – the Chinese manufacture in large quantities and seem to 'badge engineer' in terms of paint and a few other options. They might not be Hardinge quality but they are probably much better than some of my antiques, on which I still manage to do acceptable work (although admittedly, my standards may not be that high compared to others here).

As you grow in experience (and local knowledge) you can always trade up to something else once you know your way around your machines, other local hobbyists and your general locality.

So even without being resident in Canada, my advice would always be to consider the size of machine you actually need for your work and to see if an affordable new machine of a suitable size is available locally and to view. Then go and take a look and decide if it's "good enough" to do what you need it to do now and (if so) then just go for it…

Regards,

IanT

[Matt Stevens 1Participant @mattstevens1]

All – Thanks for the enthusiastic responses which you have all replied to quickly.

@IanT – Good points. I likely would not get a 'tiny' Lathe like the Unimat stuff, I found they were just not man enough for the job and had too many limitations. The lathe I was previously used too was a 9"x20" which I felt was a nice size to work with. But for sure I can check out the manufacturers.

@Jeff – PM'ed you as requested. Thanks

Thanks for the other makes to check out…I am no expert and hence all these questions. I have to admit, I see some 'old' machines on Kijiji in Ontario like South Bend for $900 ish but they look really old! I know everyone raves about stuff like that, but I would be more comfortable with something that looks a little more modern and shiny! A tray that collects all the chippings is a nice feature too to save my basement floor getting too covered in crap

For interest, the link below looks very very similar to the Chester model I used before…..I bet it is the same machine painted differently!

**LINK**

[MuzzerParticipant @muzzer]

Yes, I should have mentioned I bought a few things on Craigslist, including my Bridgeport clone and the ubiquitous 4×6 bandsaw. It isn't really known of in the UK although it does exist here but it's actually how most second hand stuff gets sold, certainly in and around Vancouver. I bought and sold quite a few things in the end, often selling for more than I paid once I'd had my fill of them – wood turning lathe, tools, olive wood, engine crane, piano etc.

The best bargains tended to be the ones with very limited descriptions / no photos, whereas when selling them, I'd get them nice and clean, take loads of photos and spin up a nice description. If you don't ask, you don't get!

I had a work colleague who lived right next to the US border and kept a US postal address (you can rent them). He would get stuff delivered there and when he nipped over to buy fuel etc he would pick his stuff up. Car parts etc were about half price in some cases and by crossing frequently he was able to keep under the threshold for paying taxes etc. Got me some disks and pads for my Honda Pilot, saving me a decent pile of cash in the process.

Murray

[Another JohnSParticipant @anotherjohns]

Matt;

I really wonder if there is a way to get across the border without paying all the duty ???

Second hand is an option and if any of you guys come across something interesting in a commutable distance….give me a shout…I would appreciate that.

@John – not so much into railway, I am more interested in static steam engines like the Stuart models….im only a young wiper snapper as well at 36! I have my dad to blame for getting me into this …

You are allowed a certain amount if you are out of the country for some time period. Lots of people use shipping addresses across the border in the USA; I think it keeps some of the border towns afloat, with all the traffic. I do NOT know what the rules are for how much, how long away, etc, but one can always do a search. (I did bring back a lathe one year; claimed it, paid a bit of duty, added about 10% to the total, but have to look up amounts sometime)

Just east of Perth, ON, there is a used machinery dealer, Cardon Tools, that, if you look on kijiji you can find them. They scour the place for tooling, and have some interesting stuff sometimes. (Highway 7)

I mention the club aspect because networking is the way that a lot of things change hands. Your age is no problem, you might not be the youngest, by a long shot. (not that clubs are filled with youngsters, but they are not all filled with people in their 80s) Going to clubs is simply a way of talking to others; while one or two might say "you MUST build a locomotive" most of the members have varied interests, so the model engineering clubs are a collecting point of like-minded individuals.

Seriously, though, keep your eyes out on kijiji.ca, and hone in on areas closer to you. You never know….

[Jeff DaymanParticipant @jeffdayman43397]

Hi Matt, you have a PM. JD

[Richard HurdParticipant @richardhurd30694]

You can also watch the Canadian Government Surplus web site.

https://www.gcsurplus.ca/mn-eng.cfm?snc=wfsav

A Maximat V10-P Mentor went for $400 a couple months ago. I got my Maximat V10-P Mentor for free. It was going for scrap so all I had to do was put a few hundred into it to get it operational again.

I'm down in the SW part of Ontario on the North shore of Lake Erie.

Richard

[Matt Stevens 1Participant @mattstevens1]

What are peoples thoughts on this….

**LINK**

I am kindof reluctant to get an 'old' machine because a) the amount of wear and tear and b)it just doesn't feel modern enough ……but then I am young pup!

Having said the above…what are peoples impressions? It certainly looks nicely maintained

[Roderick JenkinsParticipant @roderickjenkins93242]

Looks nice from here

I'd make sure that it has a full set of change wheels – no sign of them on the pictures though it does seem to have a 4 jaw.

Rod

[Enough!Participant @enough]

Compare it to this one from another thread for just about the same price.

 

Seriously, it looks like a pretty decent deal. I might even beat you to it if I figured I could get it into my basement (and have room for it when I got it there).

Edited By Bandersnatch on 05/08/2015 18:16:51

[Jeff DaymanParticipant @jeffdayman43397]

Logan lathes are generally very good and $1000 for a good used US made lathe is very reasonable. As pointed out, if you do go see it, ask about change wheels. Some parts for Logan machines are still supported by Logan Actuator Co in the US. If you are interested, I would not hang around, call them ASAP and get over to Barrie to see it.

Before buying, check spindle bearing play, take a piece of 1" or 3/4" dia 12L14 steel with you and turn a test piece if they will let you. Check both ends of a long cut with micrometer to see if it is turning parallel. Take a 2 or 3" dia short piece of bar to do a facing test. Use a ruler across the facing cut to see if it is radiused or is flat. Look for bed/ways damage. Lots of tiny dents and dings are normal on old machines especially near the headstock but any serious gashes or cracks are not good. If the scraping marks (frosting) still shows all along the ways, that's best case. If there are wear marks through the frosting, run your fingernail along the boundary between the wear and the frosting – if theres a detectable ridge, that's heavy wear and will affect accuracy to some extent. Examine the leadscrew all along its' length while it is turning. The thread should be in perfect shape all along it. Check for backlash in the carriage feed nuts and cross feed nuts. Excessive backlash can be fixed but less backlash/free play the better. Check the tailstock barrel for excessive free play – if you can feel any while the barrel is extended that is not good. Check all chucks are free moving when open or closed. There should not be tight spots or visible free play in the jaws while opening and closing. Drill a hole with a drill in the tailstock drill chuck and listen for thrust bearing noise in the headstock. Check the condition of the wiring. Ask what oil has been used for the oiling points, and check for presence of oil all around the machine. There should be some around all moving parts, but things should not be sopping wet with oil. Grease or dried up oil on the lathe is not a good sign. (There may be grease on long-stored tooling items – that is OK) Look for rust patches under any fresh paint. Run your finger along ways and feel for grit – especially if there is a grinder for lathe tools sitting nearby. If there are woodworking machines nearby, check for sawdust. There should be NO grit or sawdust anywhere on the lathe. If there is, it is a sign of neglect, and other important things may have been neglected too. After the lathe has run for a while under load check bearings and motor for excessive heat. Nothing should be hotter than warm to the touch.

In my opinion new and shiny means nothing regarding machine tools. An old well built US or Canadian made lathe in decent condition is designed and built better and will last longer than any shiny new Chinese made machine. This is based on many years' observation in industry and with home use machines.

JD

Edited By Jeff Dayman on 05/08/2015 19:05:36

Edited By Jeff Dayman on 05/08/2015 19:08:10

[Anonymous]

I owned a Logan when I was a kid in the early 1970s. As far as I'm aware they're pretty rare in the UK. It was a very nice lathe, although to be honest I was in no position to judge due to inexperience. Unusually it had power cross feed. I paid a tenner for it to a developer who was knocking down some old buildings in the centre of Bedford and wanted it gone. I bought new half nuts in 1973 from what was then Powermatic Houdaille; I've still got the invoice. Looks like the total cost was $12.17, including shipping. If I remember correctly payment was a real pain involving international bank transfers. At the time I was working at Texas Instruments as a summer job, so I asked their finance people for advice about money transfers.

One bad thing about the Logan is that the tailstock locking via the enclosed nut is a right royal PITA.

I'd certainly be happy to have another Logan.

Andrew

[MuzzerParticipant @muzzer]

The Logan looks like a superior beast, with ball / roller bearings, power feed, double flat-vee bed, proper drive / covers etc – assuming it passes muster of course. The superRealm looks like a large Super Adept or worse. Even if it goes for the starting price, it doesn't sound like much of a bargain unless you are planning to make a load of clothes pegs with it before using it as a sea anchor. Perhaps at half the price it would do as a child's starter lathe.

Murray

[Author]

Posts