Lathe tool recommendations?

[UncouthJParticipant @uncouthj]

Hi folks.

I'm in the market for some new tooling.

What's the best value sets available and where from?

I'm looking for a set of pre-ground HSS and a set of carbides. Preferably including boring and basic thread cutters…

Thanks

[UncouthJParticipant @uncouthj]

[Thor 🇳🇴Participant @thor]

I have a set of HSS tools from ARC that has served me well for many years, they also do carbide insert tools.

Thor

[David George 1Participant @davidgeorge1]

Another plus for the ARC set for beginners but have you got a grinder to sharpen tools on. As you use the tools they will become blunt and some of the carbide tooling needs grinding before it can be used. You also may have to grind special shapes for some parts and it is most useful to be able to make your own from a solid piece of High Speed Steel. Buy as good a grinder as you can afford as the cheap ones have poor grinding wheel location and tool rests are abysmal to say the least. You would have to have a green grit wheel to sharpen carbide on if you go that way.

David

[Anonymous]

Personally I wouldn't buy sets. Buy HSS blanks and grind your own tools. For carbide I use CCMT inserts for 80% of my centre lathe turning. My repetition lathe was designed to use 5/16" square HSS blanks so that is what I use. I suspect the Logan won't allow the best to be got from carbide.

For threading I use full form inserts, except for specials where I grind a HSS blank.

Andrew

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Self-taught beginners benefit from sets because, starting out, they don't know what they need yet! Sets are good way of learning the ropes. Although some of the tools will be rarely used, you're paying to learn, not for hardware. Sets aren't so useful when you know what you need. But always compare prices: don't assume buying individual tools is always cheaper: sets can be better value even if some of the contents are never used.

I find questions like ' What's the best value sets available and where from' difficult to answer. It assumes too much about a complicated market! Very broadly though:

• Buying cheap at exhibitions, in pub car-parks, and from the internet is risky. Plenty of genuine bargains mixed with manufacturing rejects, too cheap, and counterfeits. Consumer protection is weak buying from private sellers, fly-by-night companies, and from abroad. Most of my internet purchases have been fine, but I'm ready to take the hit when it goes wrong. If you don't mind a gamble, buying this way can be good fun.
• Buying mid-range tooling from established UK outlets is much safer because consumer protection applies and many suppliers do the decent thing without fuss. The decent thing boils down to replacing duds, or money back: there is no guarantee mid-range tools will meet your expectations! Unfortunately the extra protection costs money, which deeply upsets all Model Engineers! However, it's my preferred method of buying tools and tooling. I mostly use ArcEuro, Warco and Tracy Tools, but RDG and several others have all been satisfactory. Just avoid too cheap!
• When money is no object, top-end gear can be sourced from industrial suppliers; well-made to a specification, quality assured, reliable, hard wearing and ready to go out of the box. Most new hobbyists arrive on the scene expecting to invest in the best tools available and disappear in a puff of smoke when they see the prices. Or an ambulance! This grade of tooling is aimed at industry working against the clock to make money, where the profits cover procurements costs. The economics are completely different from hobby engineering. It can be worth Model Engineers buying the best, but the truth is we rarely need it. Second-hand is a good source, but condition is everything – worn out tools are worn out, however good they were when new.

I mostly use carbide inserts with HSS as backup. Apart from home-ground form tools. my most used HSS tools came from this set, which I got years ago from Arc Euro. All used in anger apart from the 55degree threading tool. I broke the parting tool, and prefer something sturdier.

The range of inserts available is bewildering: Arc Euro sell a subset which happen to be a good match to hobby needs.

I don't recommend brazed carbide lathe sets resembling these:

They often arrive unsharpened and have to be touched up with the green grinding wheel mentioned by David George before use: bit much for a beginner I reckon. Must be useful for something, but to my mind they fall awkwardly between two stools. In my workshop they lack the massive convenience of carbide inserts and the tolerant virtues of HSS.

Dave

[John HinkleyParticipant @johnhinkley26699]

Although I mostly use insert tooling, I also bought a selection box of hss as shown in Dave's post, above. If you go the hss route and get a grinder as well, even if you find you don't use them all, they could be reground into 'specials' not to mention the eight "free" blanks on the back ends.

John

 

Edited By John Hinkley on 06/07/2022 11:31:45

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

I'd buy or make a tangential tool holder. It will do 90% of your work and is dead easy to sharpen.

[UncouthJParticipant @uncouthj]

Posted by duncan webster on 06/07/2022 14:09:29:

I'd buy or make a tangential tool holder. It will do 90% of your work and is dead easy to sharpen.

Always in the market for a new YouTube rabbit hole, cheers!

Edited By UncouthJ on 06/07/2022 15:30:21

[UncouthJParticipant @uncouthj]

Posted by Andrew Johnston on 06/07/2022 09:49:45:

I suspect the Logan won't allow the best to be got from carbide

I actually hadn't considered that, that's a very good shout thanks! Although I will want a new set for my CJ18 at some point.

[UncouthJParticipant @uncouthj]

I didn't know that about the brazed carbides either so that's useful intel, thanks!

The main issue here is that I was spoiled in my only machining job, in that we had an old boy who's sole purpose in life was spending his days grinding the absolute most perfect tools for any particular job, often even with subtle differences for each individual machine. The guy was a bloody savant! The flip side being, I simply never learned this most fundamental trade skill.

So basically I'm after a half decent set of pre-grounds to check my work against on the decent amount of HSS blanks I inherited. Obviously going to have to get to know the Logan properly and work out any intricacies it prefers.

Thanks for all the input folks!

[Anonymous]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 06/07/2022 11:13:52:

…Must be useful for something, but to my mind they fall awkwardly between two stools.

Before the advent of inserts brazed carbide was recommended for iron castings to get under the skin, complete with sand, and to get through chilled area. i've got a few industrial ones from way back but haven't used them for decades. Carbide inserts work well, even for tough and hard materials. Plus the castings for my engines seem to be old school as they have never had any hard spots.

Andrew

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

I use the brazed carbide knife tools with radius ends to put a nice internal fillet on things so they get used reasonably often. At the time I made my Minnie 90% of that was done with brazed tools from MESAS and they are the same ones I'm using 30+ years later with a few additions.

As Andrew says also stand up to crusty castings far better than HSS

New ones can be touched up on a diamond lap as the basic shape is there, just need to crispen up the edge so a green wheel is not needed from the off.

Edited By JasonB on 06/07/2022 16:29:46

[Mick B1Participant @mickb1]

Posted by Andrew Johnston on 06/07/2022 09:49:45:

Personally I wouldn't buy sets. Buy HSS blanks and grind your own tools. For carbide I use CCMT inserts for 80% of my centre lathe turning. My repetition lathe was designed to use 5/16" square HSS blanks so that is what I use. I suspect the Logan won't allow the best to be got from carbide.

For threading I use full form inserts, except for specials where I grind a HSS blank.

Andrew

That's what I do, except I use carbide inserts only when there's a lot of metal to shift. I prefer to cut slow and light when I can.

There's no need for an expensive bench grinder. I use cheapies, dress the wheel for a smooth run as soon as I get it home, and replace the whole thing when the wheels wear down to about 5". I think I'm on my third cheap grinder in about 40 years.

[UncouthJParticipant @uncouthj]

Tbh, I don't mind throwing a bit of money at a half decent bench grinder. I've had a couple of cheap ones and I found the torque drop incredibly irritating.

[Chris MateParticipant @chrismate31303]

Cutters with inserts:Difference I noticed:

10mm set:
I bought a set of indexable 10mm cutters. When I checked and you lined them up all the tips are the same height, including tread cutter and parting/grooving tool. This means if you place any one in the toolholder the height is the same.
As a result I made a smaller fixed toolpost for this set to get nearer to small parts, all always on centre.

12mm set:
I also bought a 12MM set with insert cutters. This set was not all the same height, so I have to keep on adjusting the height if I insert another one in same holder.

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

If you are a newbie, I would avoid carbides until more experience was under your belt.

I do use Carbide tips for certain jobs, roughing, boring or hardened steel.

To get the best out of Carbide requires a different technique from HSS, and not all machines (elderly designs ) can run at the speeds and feeds required for optimum performance.

Carbide will chip much more easily than HSS if knocked (In my experience, particularly brazed carbides, but maybe that just me. ) Chatter seems to chip carbide more easily than HSS.

HSS should allow you to learn how to grind tools, always a useful skill (One day you might need a "special". You are unlikely to be ably to grind a carbide to a non standard shape. Might be difficult with even with the necessary diamond wheel., even.won't

For most other work, like may others, I use a Tangential Turning Tool (Have made a number, for 1/8 and 5/16 toolbits,and finally bought an Eccentric Engineering one, using 1/4 HSS toolbits )

Easy to sharpen, one face to grind using a jig. Used almost all the time. Will take off anything between 0.0005" to 0.050" a side.

It has taken me 4 years to wear out the original toolbit! (Started about 1.5" long )

Compare the cost of a 1/4" toolbit with one carbide tip.

Carbide has it uses in a hobby shop, allowing hardened steel to be machined (Did some today )

But a hobby shop is not on piecework where metal must be moved as quickly as possible.

0.050" a side.

Others will differ, son the choice is yours

HTH

Howard

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

Chris:

Could you modify the 12mm tool shanks, or establish a set of dedicated packing for each, so you don't need keep re-adjusting the height?

.

I find I use both HSS and carbide indexable tools more or less equally, and to be honest I rarely find the carbide tips the "better" option. It is only one aspect of gaining good-quality metalwork. Their big advantage perhaps in our workshops is that when the tool blunts part-way through, it can be replaced without needing to re-set the tool itself. (In industrial production work for which these things are intended, tool wear and tip life is part of the planning and costing.)

Whilst we advise beginners against the trap of using any old pre-loved steel going, I do use it, but am aware of its limitations and the possibility of having to experiment a bit to obtain decent results.

For example, some 18-ish mm diameter, former cable-drum tie-rods proved horrible stuff to machine with a carbide tip, but a steel tool obtained a fair finish certainly adequate for the particular purpose. That was not a fault of the tip per se; but very likely of the wrong tip for that particular (unknown) grade of steel.

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

In my experience, the angles quoted for grinding a HSS tool are not THAT exacting. In a hobby shop the angle can vary by a few degrees without ruining things.

Possibly a tool meant to be ground to 10 degrees will function quite well a few degrees either side of the nominal. I would tend be wary of grinding too great a top rake on any tool, for fear of inviting dig ins or chatter.

Excessive clearances will weaken the tool cutting edge, and shorten life between regrinds.

The clearance angles are there to prevent the tool rubbing and to produce a sharp edge so that pressure between tool and work is maximised. That is why a blunt tool does not cut well, or at all. It MIGHT burnish, though

Obviously a blunt tool, or one mounted off centre will not, literally, cut the mustard, let alone steel.

But this does not apply to drills Drills are best ground, like milling cutters by the four facet method. With this method, correctly carried out, the drill will cut easily and accurately.. But for this you need, at least a jig, preferably some form of cutter grinder, to maintain alignment.

Howard

Edited By Howard Lewis on 07/07/2022 16:10:27

[Chris MateParticipant @chrismate31303]

Nigel Graham 2: If I buy another 3x toolholders for my quick change toolpost(Got x at moment), it would be less of a problem, however I have to buy too much stuff for the mill so that must wait. I may consider modifying them seeing I got the mill. I use the 10mm set also with the quick change toolpost when space is not a problem.

[UncouthJParticipant @uncouthj]

Well… I decided to go for the ARC set in 10mm as well as a boring bar set. Nabbed a nice little vice that looks ideal for a little bread and butter money vertical milling project I'm planning. Really want to get the lathe rebuild finished but this heat is just too much…

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

Thread drift

A vice for milling needs to be strong and rigid. Mostly, turning is a continuous cutting action, where milling is an interrupted cut, which tends to produce a hammer effect.

As in any cutting process, if the workpiece, or cutter can flex appreciably, accuracy and finish will suffer.

So I hope that you didn't buy a vice intended for drilling.

Howard

[UncouthJParticipant @uncouthj]

no, not that wet behind the ears, thankfully. its the self centering milling vice that ARC had on clearance. It looks absolutely ideal for my purposes. should help me get the most out of the limited milling travel available, and hopefully be good for rigidity.

[Anonymous]

A question I would have asked, is why was it in a clearance sale?

None of my machine vices have a swivel base. I've swivelled the vice to machine a part once in the last 20 years. So I'd take the swivelling base off; it just uses up height and reduces rigidity.

There are some (very expensive) self-centring vices available Self-centring Vices with accuracy figures. I'm not sure cheaper variants would have good repeatability.

A problem with self-centring vices is that one loses a fixed reference as both jaws move, and could twist, rather than one jaw being fixed.

Andrew

[UncouthJParticipant @uncouthj]

The job I've got in mind will need the rotation. Intention is to index the part from the centre and the previous cut. But yes for straight up milling I will remove the base. If I need a vice with a fixed jaw down the road I'll get one, but this one is good for the job and the budget…

[Author]

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