Lathe Tool Inserts

[Captain BigglesParticipant @captainbiggles]

I bought Amadeal's kit of 9 12mm indexable carbide lathe tools back at the Bristol show and I'd now like to buy some replacement tips. After quite some digging around online I've worked out that the insert codes are as follows:

SCMT09T304

WCMT09T304

JCL15-120E (for threading)

CK3 (for parting)

Can anyone recommend a good, online (ideally) source of the above, preferably with a range of material options as I typically cut cast iron, steel, brass & aluminium (in that order).

Cheers,

Joel

[Captain BigglesParticipant @captainbiggles]

Where can I buy replacement ones?

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

The problem with some of these imported sets is they don't use the more common types of insert so your choice is quite limited

J&L Have several options on the SCMT and a small range of WCMT use their virtual cataloge. Cutwell have some SCMT.

As for the parting & threading tools then I have used Shars in the US who seem to list them, just watch the postage, best to e-mail for a quote rather than what the computer generates.

You may also have luck with CTC in Hong Kong.

 

J

Edited By JasonB on 22/11/2012 15:06:37

[Sub MandrelParticipant @submandrel]

>9,000 results for SCMT09T304 on Google – some of those must be suppliers?

Neil

[Captain BigglesParticipant @captainbiggles]

Cheers for the sarcastic reply Stub. How about the 239 replies for the JCL15-120E of which none appear to be suppliers (in the UK) or likewise the 506 for the CK3 parting tool?

Jason – thank you for the very useful answer, and you've rather confirmed my fears about the Chinese import tooling (why is it so hard to find anything other than cheap Chinese imported tooling at shows these days though?). Sadly none of those suppliers you suggested stocked (on their website at least) all 4 types of tool, are any of the above likely to be able to get all of them in (at a reasonable price)? Someone at work suggested Cromwells – anyone got any experience of using them?

Not only are there a bewildering array of different shapes & sizes (something I've just about got to the bottom of) but there are so many different materials too. Is there such a thing as a "good all rounder"? As I said above it's mainly cast iron, stell, brass and aluminium that I work in.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Are you sure the WCMT are not WCMX in which case Shars sell all 4 types. You could also get the inserts from Amadeal as they sell them. though only in a mixed box by the looks of it

Looking at the cost (£52 for 9No 1/2" tools) of these sets and the photo of the inserts I'd be inclined to forget the hard to obtain holders and just keep the few you can get inserts for then buy individual holders and suitable inserts as you need them

The other suppliers are unlikely to do or be able to get the parting and threading insets as they are such odd inserts. They will only carry what there is a demand for from industy and lilewise the known brands will only make what there is a demand for, the smaller the demand the less material specific options they will cater fore.

Maybe a bit of research prior to a show to see what you want and what cutters are available would help in the future. Greenwood generally sell a better quality tool at teh shows they attend and I've not had problems with teh Glanze ones I've bought from shows, both make suse popular shape & spec inserts.

 

 

Cromwells have a few SCMT listed

Edited By JasonB on 23/11/2012 10:41:16

[Mustafa B. AddayParticipant @mustafab-adday34743]

Wonder why someone buys a set of tools at an exhibition without asking for the replacement inserts.

Different kind of folks strolling on our earth…

Mustafa

[TerrydParticipant @terryd72465]

Hi Joel,

depending on you circumstances and applications (you haven't said what you are doing with your lathe – business or hobby?) why do you have to use carbide tooling? HSS is perfectly satisfactory and takes just a short time to learn how to grind it to produce perfectly serviceable tooling which is good for all the materials you mention with a simple variation of top rake. I must admit for the vast majority of my work I get perfectly good results with one set of HSS tooling.

As a hobby, I find that carbide tooling is expensive compared with HSS as I can regrind the latter easily and resharpen with little effort or exotic grinding wheels. That is not a problem in industry where tooling costs may be only about 3% of the costs. For the cost of one holder and a couple of tips you can buy plenty of HSS and (probably, a cheapish bench grinder).

Some people swear by carbide but for me HSS is a perfectly good option, as it has been for best part of a century. There is no need to keep a stock of tips or find you have chipped your last good one just as the stores have closed for the weekend and then wait a few days for the post.

My own opinions,

Best regards

Terry

 

Edited By Terryd on 23/11/2012 10:52:37

[Tony JeffreeParticipant @tonyjeffree56510]

Posted by Captain Biggles on 22/11/2012 14:40:47:

I bought Amadeal's kit of 9 12mm indexable carbide lathe tools back at the Bristol show and I'd now like to buy some replacement tips. After quite some digging around online I've worked out that the insert codes are as follows:

SCMT09T304

WCMT09T304

JCL15-120E (for threading)

CK3 (for parting)

Can anyone recommend a good, online (ideally) source of the above, preferably with a range of material options as I typically cut cast iron, steel, brass & aluminium (in that order).

Ebay has been a good source of carbide inserts for me in the past – SCMT09T304 brings up several options.

Regards,

Tony

[PekkaNFParticipant @pekkanf]

I like to use carbide inserts, because it is possible to buy brand/quality inserts and holders. Carbide can be used without cooling and grindings.

Then again, I almos gave up after I bought bad inserts and holders.

I'm having real trouble locating even semi decent HSS blanks. I have found one supplier that does, but then corbide insers are more economical to me.

Although I agree, that if I need something nonstandard, then grinding from HSS is way to go.

I stick mostly on following tip geometries:

CCMT6 (SCLC R/L for external turning, SCLCR for internal turning 8 to 16 mm shanks)

SCMT9 (SSSCR Roughing)

GTN2 parting off, I had some Sandvik inserts, they were really good, still have 10 pcs of Iscar inserts, but tehy are not equally good.

And Mesa tools stuff for threading and grooving:

http://www.mesatool.com/products/threading-tools/

I still retain some right/left hand cheap CCMT09 holders, but now I buy quality inserts for them,

I trashed the first/cheap nonstandard threadin, parting-off, and internal turning holders they looked like tools, but were just imitation. Some of the inserts grumbled when they touched the workpiece first time – and they cost 60% of the real thing! If the seller can't give you grade and parameters, changes are that they are not known!

Pekka

[TerrydParticipant @terryd72465]

Hi Pekka,

I have yet to buy any bad HSS. I grind the basic shape and then usually just need to touch up occasionalluy with a slipstone. I find that they last absolutely ages betwen grindings. I hardly ever use coolant but as I am just a hoobyist now, fast material removall is not a problem.

Best regards

Terryy

[Martin WParticipant @martinw]

Hi

Like Terry and others I tend to use HSS tools and grind or hone them when they loose their edge. Recently I made a fairly crude copy of the tangential tool system which manages to produce a good finish and can be used for most turning jobs.

That said a good time ago I bought a set of 10mm carbide insert tools and after a few calamitous first attempts, bits of insert flying off and rough finishes, now tend to use them for particular jobs. While these are TCMT 1102xx series I got all the tips I needed from Ebay at very reasonable prices. Now having got accustomed to the foibles carbide inserts I don't damage them and seem to have a surplus, till the next catastrophe, of branded inserts.

My take on this is to use HSS tools and grind to shape and save the carbide inserts for those special jobs. Unbranded inserts I have found to be of very variable quality and they can't be relied upon to produce a consistent finish.

Martin

[ian cableParticipant @iancable23486]

god this is good to watch {don't mean to blasphem gents} the other thread on stainless is the same issue yes, there are loads of different inserts but how many model engineers know the different types of metal to be able to buy the correct tip or tips so its lucks chance.I am certainly not knocking those that purchase inserts im all for them ,but I think for a novice with usually smaller capacity machines they need an easier and cheaper start ,so what can be easier than learning to grind a decent tool with hss and gain an enormous amount of expierience towards making their machine cut in the correct way .theres no quick way to learn a skill ian c

[John CoatesParticipant @johncoates48577]

Posted by ian cable on 23/02/2014 21:02:06:

,but I think for a novice with usually smaller capacity machines they need an easier and cheaper start ,so what can be easier than learning to grind a decent tool with hss

well speaking as a novice what did I see when I picked up my first learner book, the "Lathework: a complete course" book by Harold Hall, but insert tooling, so that's what I thought I had to use

sometimes the experienced people on here forget what it was like to be a newbie, we didn't all have apprenticeships with someone to guide us, we have to use books to get started

[ian cableParticipant @iancable23486]

nothing against Harold Hall but now you can learn more from these fellas experiences have fun ian c

[Captain BigglesParticipant @captainbiggles]

Speaking with all the clarity of a beginner…

Having bought a lathe/mill, vices, collets, mounting blocks, bolts, milling bits etc, the beginner is then faced with a simple decision. Either buy some square bits of HSS and yet more equipment in the form of a grinding wheel & work out the hard way how to grind a bit (often with only books / internet to advise) or buy some tipped tools where all that work has been done for them.

It is hardly surprising therefore that a beginner would pick the tipped tools is it?

Sure, if I was doing an apprenticeship and an old hand could show me how to grind then I'd be all ears, but left to your own devices when there are so many other skills to learn I don't think a beginner should be chastised for picking those other skills to learn first.

Joel – Romford MEC Newcomer of the Year 2014!

[EmgeeParticipant @emgee]

For the newbie needing some guidance on HSS tool grinding there are some very good videos on Youtube, watch out though because some are not so good, check the comments and number of views.

Emgee

[JAParticipant @ja]

I may be an old cynic but if I was new to model engineering and having read all the stuff written about tool grinding I would be using inserts.

I only did three months workshop training during my apprenticeship but I do remember turning. On the first afternoon we were taught how to centre a round mild steel bar in a four jaw chuck and then turn it round. On the second morning we were shown how to grind a knife tool, then had to grind such a tool and turn the bar round again.

What I am saying is that grinding a simple lathe tool is not difficult. You don't have to get an exact rake angle of 30 degrees, 25 or 35 will work quite satisfactorily for mild steel. Likewise for the side rakes. Books and films will not grind a tool for you – follow one set of instructions and have a go. You should have a useable tool in under 15 minutes. Start with a knife tool, the universal turning tool, and keep the tool cool by frequently putting it in water. Nothing ventured – nothing gained.

JA

[ian cableParticipant @iancable23486]

I agree JA, Im sorry if captain biggles was offended but you will have to buy one more piece of essential equipment in the form of some sort of grinder/ linisher eventualy, and please don't jump to the conclusion that every one that offers advice is time served .Many people on this and other forums are from totally unrelated back grounds and there comments remarks and advice come from there own experiences in the hope that it makes newbes life a lot easier and more enjoyable and It does nt matter how much you know you never stop learning cos theres always something new ian c

[Captain BigglesParticipant @captainbiggles]

No offence is taken, and yes, I'm sure I will get around to buying a linisher/grinder at some point. But I have to say there is definitely an air of moral superiority dished out by those who grind their own over those who made the decision at the outset to postpone the purchase of yet another piece of equipment when an out-of-the-box alternative solution exists which enables the beginner to hone (ha ha) their skills in other areas of this fascinating hobby.

[ian cableParticipant @iancable23486]

I think its just sometimes personel preference and experience,also the type of machines and probably for the majority cost, many are in retirement or have children, to buy tips are quite expensive and once warn or damage is in the bin ,where as hss can be reground at no cost other than the initial outlay.At some point probably sooner than later you will have to grind up special tools for a purpose even on an easy job where a standard tool wont do {and drill bits}.I don't mean to put you off by any sense ,only that this is such a broad subject and at the end of it ,it will be up to you what you prefer it might even be both ian c

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

For inserts , and holders, try J.B. Cutting Tools.

The Cottages

Hundall lane

Dronfield

SHEFFIELD

S18 4BP

01246 – 4128110

Jenny@JBCuttingtools.com.

As a customer, I have always found Jenny to be most helpful.

I used to have problems making telephone contact, having to leave a message on the answerphone.

Last time that I spoke to her, she said that the E mail was now up and running.

JB attend most of the shows, the next one, of which I know, will be at Spalding, 26/27th April, and then Harrogate in May. So if you can get there you can discuss your needs, face to face.

Also look at Chronos, Warco, Chester, or other major suppliers, as possible sources of inserts.

Howard

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