Lathe chuck guards – how many folk use them?

[thaiguzziParticipant @thaiguzzi]

Back in my pro days, in my own workshops, Colchester roundhead Students & Masters, yes, both kept on – reason, used flood coolant often.

Nowadays, hobby time, '69 Boxford VSL, took the guard off 'cos it gets in the way, and i don't use flood coolant anymore.

[Brian GParticipant @briang]

Posted by not done it yet on 31/10/2019 11:29:15:

… I hope the motor (for the poster who says the work is safe when the guard is open) has a ‘no-volts’ starter to prevent a restart…

Yes it does, and I wouldn't be without one. I don't trust that a variable speed drive will remain at zero, and there isn't much indication that the machine is powered up. I also really don't want the excitement of a machine that starts after a fault, when somebody resets the emergency stop or because somebody pressed the switch after the power was turned off at the wall. At about a fiver from China or just over a tenner from a reputable UK distributor for a single-phase switch, I don't understand why anybody wouldn't want one.

Brian G

[Nigel BennettParticipant @nigelbennett69913]

My Boxford 280 has a chuck guard, which used to be interlocked to the "Run" circuit. It now just remains open, because for most of the time, especially when using a larger and hence longer 6" chuck, the job isn't covered by the guard anyway and the swarf flies off where it wants to. It's only any use when I'm cutting very near to the thinner chucks, and I sometimes drop it down then. So no, I don't use it much, and neither do I stand directly in line with things when swarf is pinging off everywhere! I also make a point of wearing safety specs. (I did have a good hunt round once, but I can't seem to find that spare pair of eyes anywhere…)

Just take care, people. Use common sense…

 

(editid four spelin)

Edited By Nigel Bennett on 31/10/2019 15:19:23

[martin perman 1Participant @martinperman1]

My CL500M had the guard removed but I do have a mag base with a large piece of Perspex fitted that travels along  on the traverse, I never stand inline with the chuck.

Martin P

Edited By martin perman on 31/10/2019 15:33:30

[David Davies 8Participant @daviddavies8]

I, like many others, have left a chuck key in once, 50 years ago, on a Colchester Student. I learned from that and now never turn my back from the lathe unless the key is out. I don't have any interlocks on my Boxford but I always run with the change wheels guarded and the DOL starter has no volts release.

Hijacking the thread slightly, what does one do about guarding a shaper, which is possibly more dangerous than the above mentioned horizontal milling machine?

Cheers

Dave

[BC ProfParticipant @bcprof]

Had to remove the chuck guard from my Warco GH600. I kept having an argument with the QC tool post when working close to the chuck . Just removed the two hex screws and left the operating rod etc in place so no need to mod the electrics .

Brian

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Posted by David Davies 8 on 31/10/2019 15:44:31:

…

Hijacking the thread slightly, what does one do about guarding a shaper, which is possibly more dangerous than the above mentioned horizontal milling machine?

…

Dave

Stand well clear?

Any machine is dangerous in the right wrong hands! I’ve seen an internet video where the very large workpiece was ‘secured’ on the shaper table with ratchet straps. Appeared to work OK, but would I copy that – NBL!!. Also vids where sandwich boxes are used for containing mains circuits with live connections all over the place (and likely no strain relief on the supply cable).

[Brian GParticipant @briang]

Posted by David Davies 8 on 31/10/2019 15:44:31:

…Hijacking the thread slightly, what does one do about guarding a shaper, which is possibly more dangerous than the above mentioned horizontal milling machine?

Cheers

Dave

An electrically interlocked cage like that used for a press comes to mind, but possibly a bit OTT for a home workshop. Personally, (and possibly wrongly) I am less nervous of a shaper than a milling machine because its rotating parts are fully enclosed. Whilst a shaper could inflict a nasty injury, a reciprocating machine probably won't pull you in like a lathe, mill or drill (or even a powerful office shredder, a colleague was nearly strangled when his tie went in with the paper).

Brian G

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

Doesn't anyone use cutting oil? Mostly that on a round bar stays put but it drips down onto the jaws and with the added centripoodle force heads for the hills. There is a stain line along the back board corresponding to the gap under the back of the guard. At the front the guard curves down so the escapees are mostly heading for the floor.

[Phil WhitleyParticipant @philwhitley94135]

All my machines are old, and have never had chuck guards and the like, but the rules are simple, hair in a snood and down the back of my t shirt, no watches or rings, no long sleeves or baggy clothes, do not put your hands anywhere near anything that is moving, and never stand in line with anything that could spit something out like swarf, bits of grinding wheel etc You would not go to a motor race and spectate on the outside of a sharp bend, so don't do the equivalent in a machine shop, in both cases, sooner or later something will come your way hard and fast!

Probably the most dangerous jobs we ever do is to file in the lathe, and possibly drilling of thin sheet materials in a pillar drill, both need to be done with the utmost care and concentration

Phil

[Stuart BridgerParticipant @stuartbridger82290]

I started my career in industry, one of an intake of eighty apprentices. While machine tool safety was heavily drummed in. The biggest focus was on road safety. We had lecture from Surrey Police before we got anywhere near a lathe and were bluntly told that after 4 years one of us would be killed on a motorcycle. They were right. So my point is it is all about understanding and minimizing risk. As home shop machinists, we are 100% responsible for our own safety and none of us wants to get injured. Appropriate guarding is part of that. By far the most dangerous piece of kit in my workshop is a chainsaw. For which I undertook formal training and wouldn't dream of using without full PPE, because I understand the risks.

[old martParticipant @oldmart]

About 3 years ago the museum had a visit from two young ladies from health and safety, who looked at the machinery and really didn't know much about any of it. They were probably more at home in shops and restaurants. I thought that something ought to be done about the lathe, which had next to nothing in the form of safety devices. I bought a cheap stop button which got glued over the ancient one, at least it is much bigger. I was talking about making a chuck guard, when Chris said that he had seen one up on the mezzanine amongst the bits and pieces of helicopter. It was exactly the right size and is now on the lathe with an industrial microswitch which I had saved from being dumped as surplus from my old firm. Having the microswitch saves me from bending down to stop the lathe, which is welcome. They never came back, all the radioactive things that this sort of museum has must have put them off.

[Nick Clarke 3Participant @nickclarke3]

Posted by David Davies 8 on 31/10/2019 15:44:31:

Hijacking the thread slightly, what does one do about guarding a shaper, which is possibly more dangerous than the above mentioned horizontal milling machine?

I don't have a shaper, but used to use one regularly at a previous club. A magnificent beast, it would take on jobs that the millers wouldn't touch – but it was too easy to listen to the rhythmic cutting and be distracted by conversations and other things happening in the workshop during a longer cut.

A hacksaw machine (mounted UNDER a bench!) was another tool that could be set working and then left to get on with it on its own with less attention than it perhaps deserved.

So to add to the take care and use common sense advice I would add pay attention!

[Robin GrahamParticipant @robingraham42208]

Thanks for replies – the consensus seems to be that one has to be pragmatic about these things and use one's common sense. I have had one near miss through taking off the chuck guard – a steel rule fell off the headstock onto the chuck, flew, and embedded itself in a piece of wood on the other side of the room. I thought, cripes, if that had hit me in the eye… But instinctive caution makes me stand toward the tailstock end when turning, so maybe it wasn't a near miss at all – just common sense working.

I've also taken off the telescopic lead screw cover on the headstock side – presumably required by H&S to sell to industry/education. But it's impossible to get to the faceplate with it on! I'll just have to make sure there are no dangly bits in the leadscrew vicinity I suppose. I might manage that.

Robin.

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

The one on my old mini lathe was a joke, so removed, and I use a sheet of polycarb on magnetic stand.

The one on the SC4 is more practical and interlocked, but easily removed with a thumbscrew if required (e.g. when using a faceplate).

I think those fitted to most lathes function to stop you leaving the chuck key in rather than stopping chips. The mag base guard is so easy to use and swap between machines as required, so it gets used.

The guard that gets used is the best type.

Neil

[Clive FosterParticipant @clivefoster55965]

+1 for Neils' magnetic mounted polycarb guard, altho' my version gets more use on the Bridgeport mill, mine is fancy with a flexible stalk. One of the cheap "sort of like Noga" indicator holders might work well too. Again more for keeping coolant under control than swarf. Even though I mostly use mist, when not working dry, a correctly placed guard picks up most of the dispersion before it enters the main shop atmosphere. What doesn't hit the guard tends to end up on the machine or behind it.

Power shapers (and hacksaws) should be driven from the side so generally no great personal issues unless you start waving a measuring stick over the job or twiddling the cut feed when its running. (The Darwin Award entry list is always open.) Swarf comes off slowly too. Clip on swarf defector at the front sending most of it down into the tray isn't a bad idea tho', otherwise swarf goes all over the floor.

My big P&W lathe has and industrial style third rod control system so I can drive it from the apron which helps keep out of the line of fire. I have a guard about the place which will get fitted, one day, on a long rod supported at both ends so I can move it to the most appropriate place when working. The S&B 1024 has a chuck guard mounted in the usual fashion which will also go on along rod one day so its of more potential use. Probably more important to fit a stamp bar along the front operating a safety switch as the machine has no clutch and the big red off button is on the headstock side so need to reach across the line of fire in emergency.

Ages ago I got one of those perspex multi-panel guard systems for the Bridgeport. Fortunately cheap 'cos I've never figured out how to set it up and still have adequate access to the job! Objectively I should sell it but I'd feel guilty!

Clive

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Do remember, folks, there is a difference between a screen and a guard. They are not necessarily meant for the same purpose. Legally, a guard either should not be able to be removed without recourse to tools or movement of guard results in immediate machine stoppage. A chuck guard does not prevent injury, or hot swarf, occurring at the tailstock end of the job.

[Robin GrahamParticipant @robingraham42208]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 03/11/2019 14:15:38:

…

I think those fitted to most lathes function to stop you leaving the chuck key in rather than stopping chips. The mag base guard is so easy to use and swap between machines as required, so it gets used.

The guard that gets used is the best type.

Neil

That makes sense Neil – I'll look into making a portable shield. But it does raise another safety question for me.

When I first got a lathe I read Tony Griffith's advice (lathes.co.uk) on safety and he says five times (in red text!)

Never, ever, leave a chuck key in a chuck.

I confess that when I go to my workshop I sometimes see that I've left the key in the (empty) lathe chuck. It's never been a problem for me because when I put the next thing in and tighten the chuck I naturally take the key out – just like when tightening the chuck on a drill. I'm not trying to challenge the wisdom of this rule, but would like to understand why it's such bad practice. I can't imagine how I, myself, would ever start the machine with the key still in – but obviously it must happen often enough to be a significant risk.

Robin.

Edited By Robin Graham on 04/11/2019 01:32:31

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

It should be noted that while (in the UK at least) you can do what you like in your own home workshop, if you are in business or an employer (even casual) you have to comply with the regulations which includes guarding.
Guards may be inconvienent at times but not as musch as missing part of a finger or worse.

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

Good practice has to be never leave a chuck key in the chuck, there is no good reason to do so. Our eagle eyed instructor had a spring loaded key for anyone caught transgressing. If anyone fears that they may be unable to stick to the rule then a nest for the key with a sensor interlocked in the start circuit could give peace of mind rather than an interlocked chuck guard which is often useless for any practical purpose and can be a hindrance, the nest is useful for finding the chuck key which is remarkably good at hiding if just put in the tray. Just because we are out of the influence of the H&S in our own workshop it does not excuse us from doing a risk assessment and taking steps to work safely. Some posters have mentioned personal issues that need to be taken into account to keep themselves safe and as none of us is immune from getting older which often comes with things that didn’t trouble us when younger then a revue of how steady we are and alert may mean we need to adjust our safe working strategy.

Mike

[RMAParticipant @rma]

My lathe came with a chuck key fitted with a spring so it's impossible to leave it in the chuck. I don't have a guard or a screen, but I have thought about making a screen/guard from clear polycarbonate but never got round to it.

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

Posted by RMA on 04/11/2019 09:19:57:

My lathe came with a chuck key fitted with a spring so it's impossible to leave it in the chuck.

Those things are all well and good as long as you have strength and flexibility in your hands and wrists. As one gets older and arthritis sets in they are as bad as child proof bottles for medicines!

Russell

[RMAParticipant @rma]

Posted by Russell Eberhardt on 04/11/2019 10:09:32:

Posted by RMA on 04/11/2019 09:19:57:

My lathe came with a chuck key fitted with a spring so it's impossible to leave it in the chuck.

Those things are all well and good as long as you have strength and flexibility in your hands and wrists. As one gets older and arthritis sets in they are as bad as child proof bottles for medicines!

Russell

Yes, I definitely agree with that and using the spring loaded one can be painful. I do have both types, but arthritis isn't the only condition I/we suffer when we get older…..short term memory is a common problem, and it's easy to forget the key is in the chuck. I guess the best solution is to take your time, and even a check list on the machine similar to the checks we do in aircraft, might not seem such a daft idea.

[derek hall 1Participant @derekhall1]

Did my apprenticeship 194 to 1978, it was drummed into me in the early years about leaving a chuck key in the lathe chuck. In addition also when using a face plate make sure that all clamps are tight and revolve the chuck or face plate first before applying power.

One apprentice forgot to tighten some clamps on the face plate and the clamp was thrown up and took a great chunk out of the workshop ceiling…

I have never left a chuck key in a chuck, work safely and don't take short cuts, most of us are working alone in our workshops and help maybe along time coming.

Regards

Del

[Robin GrahamParticipant @robingraham42208]

Thanks for comments about leaving the chuck key in. For me personally I don't think I'm going to get bitten by this because the process of removing the key after tightening has become instinctive (where I put afterwards is another matter – definitely STM issues there!). I guess that it may be more problematic in an industrial environment. But I like to try and understand these things.

Robin

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