Latest ME, ELS Article

[Tony JeffreeParticipant @tonyjeffree56510]

I bought one of the Clough42 "C4228 ELS PCB Control Panel Combo Kit"s in a fit of enthusiasm having seen his videos, but it is increasingly clear that I won't ever get around to building anything with the bits. The display and the interface board are both in their original unopened antistatic bags. Seems a bit of a waste for them to gather dust, so if anyone fancies having a go, an electronic £25 note secures – contact me via the forum's messaging system.

The kit consists of:

Box it came in

Display/keyboard unit

Cutouts for the display

Buttons & hardware

C4227 board

[Tony JeffreeParticipant @tonyjeffree56510]

Boards now sold!

[Martin ConnellyParticipant @martinconnelly55370]

Ady1, I think the reason converting lathes to CNC does not get a lot of coverage is that there is such a large variety of lathes that it is hard to be definitive in how to do it. I think it is also likely that there is a lesser demand for lathe conversion than there is with milling. Converting a milling machine works on 3 axes but lathes are usually just 2 so there is a smaller gain in utility. Also a milling machine does not need a spindle encoder or speed sensor unless you go in for rigid tapping, they can do thread milling without a spindle sensor.

I do agree with John Haine though, if you are going as far as putting steppers or servos on the two lathe axes and a spindle sensor (I think the ELS uses a spindle encoder) why not go for CNC. With a used laptop, a suitable interface board and some software, which can be free, you can do all that the ELS does and so much more.

Clough42 has removed his compound slide and put in a solid tool post to improve rigidity but has now produced a video showing how he modified the compound slide mounting for better rigidity just so he could remount it to do a short taper. CNC takes care of tapers with ease so the compound slide becomes redundant.

Martin C

[simondavies3Participant @simondavies3]

For me, the differences between CNC on a mill and on a lathe are based around practical issues.

For background, I ‘converted’ the predecessor of a Cowells 90 some 40 years ago using discrete components and driven by a Sinclair ZX81 whilst working at a high tech electronics company. I swiftly learnt that that was only half the battle and that programming the CNC conversion was the significant other half (actually the remaining 95%). The lathe was converted back, used briefly and moved on to a more deserving owner. I subsequently converted my mill to CNC 15 years ago and I have used it very frequently ever since using the range of CAM solutions that have grown up in the last 20 years. My ‘go-to’ is CamBam but I think others have overtaken it by now – however, having paid for the licence and being familiar with it, I guess I won’t change for a while.

Once the mill conversion was functional (I would never say ‘complete’!), I looked at doing a lathe and eventually bought an Emco Compact5 PC, updated it to work with Mach 3 and then proceeded to do….nothing. As I discovered with my original conversion, CAM for lathes is far less available and IMO, more clunky and less user friendly. Most of the lower end ones seem to be a spin-off from a mill – CamBam being a good example.

Moreover, I found that the number of times that I wanted to turn something by CNC was limited – I don’t do that many operations that require ball ends, tapers or things that can only easily be done by CNC. So the Emco gathers dust and my trusty Chinese lathe carves up chunks of metal turning them into ever smaller pieces. It gains some upgrades to make life easier – speed control, DRO and ELS, but I don’t plan to do more in the near future – spoken as a strong CNC advocate…

Simon

[Tony JeffreeParticipant @tonyjeffree56510]

Simon

I would second what you have said – I converted my ML7 to CNC a few years ago, and I have to admit that the number of times I have used it under CNC control, other than to prove that it works, is small. I deliberately converted it in a way that makes it dual purpose – manual or CNC – and that was a very sound choice.

Regards,

Tony

[Alan Wood 4Participant @alanwood4]

I converted my Myford S7 with the Clough42 components and for those interested here is a link to my write up.

ELS Write up

[Stephen Ward 1Participant @stephenward1]

The beauty for me of a ELS conversion is that it simply provides an alternative to messing around with gearboxes and change wheels. Prior to it I rarely cut threads on my lathe because I couldn't be bothered setting it up to do them and then having to switch back to get the fine feed again.

Plus on my 254 since it's only driving the leadscrew it doesn't impact at all on manual operation which is mainly how I use the lathe.
I did consider adding a second stepper motor to the cross slide but I decided the effort of coming up with something that was easily removeable for manual work and didn't get in the way wasn't worth the limited use it would get.

The main reason I chose the Clough version is because I liked the tiny unobtrusive 'head unit'. It's just stuck on my lathe with a couple of magnets next to the tacho display. I also don't want an actual computer in my workshop so the single board solution suits me.
The open source nature also meant I could (and did) twiddle with the code.
You could do a lot more with it. The TI board he uses is overpowered for this use can easily drive more axis and the serial head unit could be swapped to use an LCD and comprehensive control panel fairly easily.
So for someone with suitable motivation it could be expanded to include all the usual taper etc stuff.

[simondavies3Participant @simondavies3]

Posted by Tony Jeffree on 13/09/2023 09:17:30:

Simon

I would second what you have said – I converted my ML7 to CNC a few years ago, and I have to admit that the number of times I have used it under CNC control, other than to prove that it works, is small. I deliberately converted it in a way that makes it dual purpose – manual or CNC – and that was a very sound choice.

Regards,

Tony

Tony, your article back in 2004 (??) was the trigger for me looking into converting my mill….!

Simon

[simondavies3Participant @simondavies3]

Posted by Stephen Ward 1 on 13/09/2023 09:33:23:

The beauty for me of a ELS conversion is that it simply provides an alternative to messing around with gearboxes and change wheels. Prior to it I rarely cut threads on my lathe because I couldn't be bothered setting it up to do them and then having to switch back to get the fine feed again.

+1…..

[Nick WheelerParticipant @nickwheeler]

Posted by Simon0362 on 13/09/2023 09:37:23:

Posted by Stephen Ward 1 on 13/09/2023 09:33:23:

The beauty for me of a ELS conversion is that it simply provides an alternative to messing around with gearboxes and change wheels. Prior to it I rarely cut threads on my lathe because I couldn't be bothered setting it up to do them and then having to switch back to get the fine feed again.

+1…..

+2

We already have spindle speed control from twisting a knob, and electronic dividing so it's about time the carriage drive, whether for feed or screw cutting, was the same.

[Tony Pratt 1Participant @tonypratt1]

I added a Clough42 ELS for the super quick feed and screw cutting changes plus metric/imperial is available with ease. I also replaced my top slide with a solid block but couldn’t get on with it so I remachined the top slide, added more gib adjustment screws, dowelled the gib and added a slide locking screw, it’s now as rigid as I need it!

Tony

[Mike BlankleyParticipant @mikeblankley]

If anyone is thinking of adding an ELS to their lathe, they could consider that sold by Maxim Kachurovskiy on Utube.

I have built one of his earlier diy designs for my minilathe and it works well.

Mike.

[Alan Wood 4Participant @alanwood4]

James at Clough42 has announced a new batch of 300 x ELS kits will be released shortly. They will first be offered to his Patreon supporters and then openly.

[John HaineParticipant @johnhaine32865]

Well just to be contrary…

I converted my lathe to CNC well over 10 years ago using Mach3 broadly inspired by Tony Jeffree. What I didn't do was leave the handwheels in place and more recently I replaced the topslide with a solid toolpost mounting. I therefore have to do ALL my turning through the CNC conversion but it's no sweat at all! The only things that I have written g-code for are some specials that can't easily be done using the Mach3 wizards, but the latter cover the vast majority of operations you are ever likely to to do on a lathe. If the wizards don't cover it I can use the MDI to input just a single gcode statement, for parting for example; or I use manual control via a game controller which has a couple of joysticks and sundry buttons. Even just for casual jobs, "just turn XX.XX mm of the diameter of this bar for YYmm" this is so much easier, just reference the lathe, choose the tool, select the wizard and you're off. I had to learn to do all this because manual control wan't an option, but I soon realised it was no loss.

Actually there is one handwheel which is the rack&pinion drive for coarse carriage positioning, but that's rarely used once the lathe is referenced.

[Tony JeffreeParticipant @tonyjeffree56510]

Maybe I should take a leaf out of your book John and give the wizards another go!

[Martin ConnellyParticipant @martinconnelly55370]

Just be aware that there is at least one Mach3 wizard that has an error. I rewrote the facing wizard because in some cases it moves the tool past the minimum X value. I think it was when going from the centre out to the edge, not too bad it you are cleaning off completely but pretty bad if you are leaving anything in the middle such as going from say X=3 to X=15. It may however chip a carbide tip if it contacts the rising side of the workpiece past X=0. I think I may have posted the new script on here already.

Martin C

PS You can use the turning wizard to do the same thing as facing from the centre out. Sometime though, when cutting plastic that results in stringy waste, the facing wizard is a better option to produce short strings instead of long ones.

Edited By Martin Connelly on 18/09/2023 18:07:03

[Phil GrantParticipant @philgrant54580]

Have you come across this old thread?

Interface PCB for the ELS project

I have had another batch of PCBs made if anyone is interested, let me know

[Roy VaughnParticipant @royvaughn26060]

A few months ago James Clough was playing with a new control panel setup with greater noise immunity.  Has anyone heard whether he plans to sell it?

[John HinkleyParticipant @johnhinkley26699]

When I fitted an ELS to my old lathe, I chose a James Clough kit and ordered it off eBay.  It worked just fine, so I intended to pursue the same route with my new mini lathe.  When I looked on eBay, he does not ship to the UK any more, so I investigated some alternatives.  I ended up buying a system from https://electronicleadscrew.eu .  It was ridiculously inexpensive at 100 euros including the spindle encoder and does all that I require at the moment, which includes adjustable on-the-fly feed rate, threading in Imperial, metric and B.A. and even semi-automatic threading to a shoulder or other hard stop.  There is a two-axis version which I see is now available for between 140 and 185 euros, depending on hardware.  This will allow, in addition to the above, taper turning, tapered threading and fully automatic threading.  For a demonstration, go to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CbDvwZx1CQQ and skip to 10.30mins in**.  In the most expensive kit are included two encoders for operation of the lathe in X- and Z-axes electronically. no need to disconnect the ELS gubbins to revert to manual operation.

John

** you can invoke translate through the sub menu if you want a description in anothe language, but the video is pretty much self-explanatory, anyway.

[John Haine]

On John Haine Said:

Sorry to keep saying the same thing but why not just add 2 steppers or servos to your lathe plus a spindle sensor and use a standard CNC controller? …

A very sensible approach – if you want to get a job done quickly, buy in off-the-shelf, because then someone else will have done the development work and the thing should be well tested and debugged.   But often as not Model Engineers want to learn and experiment, and love DIY.   I do both, often buying tools to save time, but also making them from scratch for education and interest.

My rotary table project, intended a MEW article, was aimed at learners and experimenters.   Although a practical build is described, and could be copied, the experimenter is free to modify the construction.   Rather I provide design insights: the source code is available and can be studied and modified; how the software is implemented on an Arduino is described, so anyone interested in doing similar can study the example;  ditto the way in which the Arduino is connected to a motor-controller and stepper, and how they and the power-supply were chosen.    Sharing the “how and why” of the design was my goal, because others often see improvements, and I learn from them!

In contrast, the World of Ward divider is available as a boxed finished product,  or as a collection of modules, or as a kit of parts.   The reason I never submitted my divider article to MEW was I felt Gary Limings and Steve covered most practical needs well, other than Steve doesn’t document the design, just the build.  We have different goals though: I supply explained source code for the common Arduino platform, which hobbyists can study and change, whereas Steve simply provides hexadecimal firmware for a PIC chip, as part of a well-finished commercial project that looks very straightforward to assemble, job done!

Substituting a CNC controller like grbl for an ELS or divider is another valid approach, but if I needed an ELS my gut feel is clough42 is more my cup of tea than CNC,  partly because his ELS kit saves time, and partly because I can study his code.   The latter is an acquired taste.  Don’t bother looking at the Clough code if Arduino is your thing, because James utilises a Texas Instruments Piccolo microcontroller, a device well-suited to ELS control, but not beginner friendly.

Which option is best for an individual depends on what he wants from the hobby.  Horses for courses again!

Dave

 

 

[Brian OldfordParticipant @brianoldford70365]

Please can you expand a little on patching his code. I particularly want to cut some quite fierce threads with a tool-post milling head.

[Roy VaughnParticipant @royvaughn26060]

My experience may be relevant.  The threads and feeds are defined by tables in the Clough42 software. If the need is simply for coarser threads the changes are straightforward, the code and data are well commented. I had no problem in adding some more feeds. If the pitch is very steep keep an eye out for overflow if using integer arithmetic and for stepper pulse rate limits.
In the early days I found the need for some minor mods to the code which turned out to be no problem to implement. Conditional statements and bit setting are pretty much the same whatever the curly bracket language.
Roy

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

Having had a look at the electronicleadscrew.eu website mentioned by John H I was impressed by the product. It seems well thought out and easy to use. I’ve just ordered a single axis unit with encoder for €136 (£115).
It’s a built, cased unit not a kit.  It’s not a “plug-n-play” solution, you have to add a stepper motor, driver and mountings / gears to suit your lathe. However the user interface and coode looks pretty good.
As SoD says this can be a sensible approach. I could design and build my own from scratch or even use a AC servo drive and motor I have “in-stock” This has built-in functionality to “follow” an encoder with a user defined “gear” ratio but you still have to do the math or write a user interface.
I have too many projecs already without starting another one that needs software written.
Having semi-automatic thread cutting, including metric on my 1940’s ML7 (imperial obviously) will be a big boost.
Need to select a stepper motor and driver. I have two or three Vexta 5 phase steppers and drivers in stock that look like they will do the job.
I’ll post updates….

Robert.

[Robert Atkinson 2]

On Robert Atkinson 2 Said:

Having had a look at the electronicleadscrew.eu website mentioned by John H I was impressed by the product. It seems well thought out and easy to use. […] […] I’ll post updates….

 

That should be interesting and informative, Robert

Thanks

MichaelG.

[John HinkleyParticipant @johnhinkley26699]

Robert,

The single-axis unit, as supplied, has the connectors issuing from the top of the display, which in my opinion spoils the aesthetics. This is what it looks like unmodified:

  As supplied

To improve matters, I redesigned the front cover so that the wires are, at least partially, hidden.

  Modified front

The STP file for 3D printing is available on Thingiverse, along with the other files for the installation of encoder and stepper motor etc, suitable for a 7 x 14 mini lathe, here:  Link to Thingiverse files

I should add that when I removed the original front, one of the brass threaded inserts wasn’t gripped by the plastic.

I have corresponded with the vendor, and he has approved the design and although not endorsed it has said that it is OK to publish it on Thingiverse.

John

 

 

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