late 19th C engine by John Clague & sons of Ramsey

[Frances IoMParticipant @francesiom58905]

Some 30years ago there was a photo of a 2 cylinder engine produced by John Clague & sons who were founders in Ramsey IoM from 1865 to WW1 – the engine which it is thought was designed to fit in the cabin of small inshore fishing vessels (about 6 man crew) known as Nickeys to drive a winch to haul in the nets after a night’s fishing for herring.
The illustration (poor + damaged) is of one about 3 feet in the base mounted in the cellar of their shop.
Was this based on any other design from the last qtr of 19th Century or unique for its intended role.

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

Interesting design.

Steam, I take it? Are the cylinders oscillating? The large circular bosses carrying what appear to the inlets, from the valve on their pipe, suggest that.

If so it’s not a unique concept but somewhat similar to the Diagonal Oscillating engines of some early paddle-steamers.

It could indeed be the engine for a winch, or more likely capstan, mounted on the deck above it. The difference being that a marine capstan has a vertical axis, and here connected by a reduction-gear whose pinion is illustrated.

The big plate on top may have formed a combined connection between the two machines and the boat’s deck framing. The vertical rod with crude square nut looks more likely something to do with whatever this engine was doing in the cellar.

Note the small, centrally-mounted pump, driven by an eccentric. That could have returned the condensate from this engine’s own condenser, to the main hot-well.

I can’t make out properly what the fitting next to the stop-valve is. It may be a small displacement lubricator but it would seem too small for normal service, so might be some replacement.

The stop-valve there, in the form it is, could only have been an isolator on board, as the main control would need be close to the capstan. Most likely the valve would have been controlled via a spindle on deck, and perhaps that went through the hole occupied by that rod; either on an angle or fitted with universal-joints. Doing that would remove the need for an extra hole through the deck, some distance from the main mountings.

I wonder what it was doing in the cellar? Driving a line-shaft perhaps?

[Frances IoMParticipant @francesiom58905]

no def a winch as these had been added to reduce the manpower needed to haul in the nets (herring nets were large and at that period catches very heavy) – the manual winch relied on the roll of the boat to give some slack in the cable to the net which was then taken up by the ratchet on the winch – must admit I wondered how the engine was controlled – thought possibly a dog clutch up on deck – the nets were hauled at break of dawn – fishing was July to August period so dawn was early.  Often it seems one of the crew was a boy there to do the cooking etc – possibly also generating the steam used only for this I think, as the boats were sailing vessels.

I’ll try to dig out the referenced paper when the Manx Museum reopens on Weds which might give a few more details – the photo was in a short article as an update to the unpublished report held at museum giving the history of the foundry company. I don’t think any of the motors have survived.

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

The inverted V or double diagonal engine layout was not unique to them. Was a not uncommon layout for various marine applications. Sidewheeler paddle boats used a bigger version, probably because it put the crankshaft up at the level where the paddle wheels needed to be centred but kept the cylinder weight down low in the hull.

But it looks like possibly their own take on the known basic design.It seems like small steam engines in that era were like bicycles and the early motorbikes and even cars, local engineering works were not afraid to make their own version based on what they knew or what they saw others doing etc.

Pump could also be a boiler feedwater pump.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

As Hopper says the “double Diagonal” layout was quite common. Usually fixed cylinders with cross head guides running along the diagonals. There are a few publishe dmodel designs that you could make us eof when you come to build your version both barstock or from castings.

 

 

Also done on their sides

[bernard towersParticipant @bernardtowers37738]

they were quite ingenious with their winches this one is fron a norfolk maker and beautifully modelled

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

A net winch would have had a horizontal drum so could be driven straight off the crankshaft. No need for a clutch, much like a capstan if the tension is put onto the tail end of a few winds of rope around the drum it will grip and wind in the rope.

 

The circular pipe flanges look to be on valve chests and the larger cylinders the other side of the frame.

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

That is the difference between a winch and capstan: the former has a parallel drum and keeps the rope, the latter has a choke-hold profile but normally passes the rope on!

That is fine for an anchor rope that can be fed into a locker or neatly coiled on a clear deck, but piling the rope on deck could be obstructive and dangerous when handling a fishing-net.

Either can be mounted horizontally but a winch cannot normally be used vertically as the rope will try to fall to the lower end and create a horrible “bird’s-nest” .

.

I had suggested indirect drive because Frances describes this engine it as probably mounted below-decks, which would make sense on a cramped fishing-boat, and it has that vertical shaft… Though looking at your and other posts, that shaft might be a red herring due it being photographed in a building, apparently in use for something unseen. The bevel gears and shaft might then be some addition for that purpose.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

The one in the photo is not the setup for the boat. May have been the same with a vertical shaft or they may have just used the same engine and taken the drive off differently

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Whether this is for a winch or a capstan must remain a mystery because this photo is just of the engine, and there’s no evidence eithe way.   I vote for Frances, though, because she knows from wider context that the engine was fitted to fishing boats to haul nets in.

Main point, this isn’t an engine set-up to work in a cellar, it’s an engine under assembly or repair in a workshop, that might well have been in a cellar.   Victorian workshops were often basic in any available space!

Many clues in the photo, and I’ve labelled the more obvious.  The engine is portably mounted on a wooden sled, E, not fixed to the floor.   There’s a bench with vice and toolbox at C, and a wooden horse at D.  The steam pipe isn’t connected to anything.

Two features look temporary to me:

• The flimsy vertical rod at B may only be temporarily marking the position of the winch drive gear.  The winch is a separate item fixed to the deck, maybe not part of the engine, though the rod marks a good place to put a lower winch bearing..  The winch gear would normally engage with pinion A, and deck level would be just below pinion ‘A’.
• I’m suspicious of the dovetailed piston rod at ‘F’.   I suspect it’s a jig used to set the valve gear, before the working rod is fitted later.  It’s shaped very different from the rod on the right, which is normal.

Interesting to see two 19th Century CAD display screens far right on the workbench, ho ho!  My guess is they’re ash-pans.

Dave

 

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

I see it a bit differently to Dave

The two chambers that we can see with the round pipe flanges are the valve chests. From these we have the round valve rods (VR) with clevises on the end and then the flat Eccentric rods (ER) which are the same each side.

Below the eccentric rods we can see on of each pair of Cross Head bar type Guides (G) which the cross head (CH) runs in.

Dark area below the frame on the right is probably the piston rod (P) which leads to the circular shape that I have ringed which is the actual cylinder.

 

Similar bar type cross head guides can be seen here

[Frances IoM]

On 7 July 2024 at 10:20 Frances IoM

 – the engine which it is thought was designed to fit in the cabin of small inshore fishing vessels (about 6 man crew) known as Nickeys to drive a winch to haul in the nets after a night’s fishing for herring.

[…]

I have no idea whether this will help anyone with visualisation, but:

https://classicsailor.com/2018/05/manx-nickeys-smylies-boats/

 

MichaelG.

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Edit:__ see also on this page:

https://kasulu.org/tag/nobby/

 

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