KX1 CNC Mill Clearance Offer

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

I'm sure there are some subjects that could be covered that would not need to even include G-code.

I have a thread on another forum about my KX3 and some of the posts there have been very interesting and it would be good to see articles on some of the newer methods and toolpaths that CAM can generate. For example one person who does very good work with his CNC machines poo pooed the time I said my CAM had suggested to machine a part which it did with no trouble. One of the other members posted a file with an adaptive tool path that gave high metal removal rates for him to try and he said he had never seen metal removed so fast. So always things to learn

[Ian Johnson 1Participant @ianjohnson1]

So! this KX1 / KX3 clearance offer. Has anyone bought one yet?

I would love to buy another KX1 but haven't got the space!

As for CNC versus manual, I enjoy doing both in my little workshop. Maybe it's because I was machining in industry when the first wave of proper CNC machines appeared in the early eighties in our workshop. TI Matrix CNC lathes and a huge Kearns Richards CNC HBM. All mixed in with NC and manual machines.

The next wave of model engineers will be using additive manufacturing techniques, laser cutting, CNC with multiple axis, sliding heads, robots and more! Our hobby is rapidly evolving, and I think it's got a bright future.

Ian

[Anonymous]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 19/03/2019 11:54:42:

I can see why CNC might not be welcome in Model Engineer, but surely it has a place in Model Engineering Workshop? As the latter focuses on tools and techniques it should be covering modern as well as established techniques.

Carbide inserts, 3D-printing, CNC, CAD, SVG, microcontrollers, DRO, VFD, Superglue, Stepper Motors, Metric, PPE, Brushless, Diamonds, bring it on!

Agreed, although personally I'd leave politics out of it.

Andrew

PPE = Philosophy, Politics & Economics – an almost obligatory Oxford degree for wannabe prime ministers.

[martin perman 1Participant @martinperman1]

Posted by Andrew Johnston on 19/03/2019 14:01:39:

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 19/03/2019 11:54:42:

I can see why CNC might not be welcome in Model Engineer, but surely it has a place in Model Engineering Workshop? As the latter focuses on tools and techniques it should be covering modern as well as established techniques.

Carbide inserts, 3D-printing, CNC, CAD, SVG, microcontrollers, DRO, VFD, Superglue, Stepper Motors, Metric, PPE, Brushless, Diamonds, bring it on!

Agreed, although personally I'd leave politics out of it.

Andrew

PPE = Philosophy, Politics & Economics – an almost obligatory Oxford degree for wannabe prime ministers.

Gentlemen,

I'm not poo pooing any of the above, I've just spent the last 40 years of my working life installing, commissioning, training and servicing machining centres, Robots, Automation, Injection moulding machines and machine tools all using PLC's, CNC etc they are all fantastic machines and can spit out repetative pieces by the thousand day in and day out but nobody is ever going to get me to understand why a home model engineer would ever want one to make one item, they were designed to make repetive items quicker and easier than several toolmakers could with lathes, mills, grinders and foundry's etc.

The enjoyment I get is to make something from nothing with the basics, you go into a jobbing shop today with CNC mills and lathes and you will find a couple of guys in front of computers writing out the programmes and dry running them and then they give the disc to the operator who loads the programme and presses the green button and minds the machine doesnt run out of material, wheres the fun in that.

Martin P

[Another JohnSParticipant @anotherjohns]

Martin;

"you go into a jobbing shop today"

Most certainly, any jobbing shop is repetitive slogging. (at least from what I've come to understand)

Where I worked (NOT as a machinist; but the machinists did stuff for MY work) the guys there made one-offs on CNC mills. No manual mills. They were artisans in what they did. It was called the "model shop".

They used CNC as a tool to enable better precision and less scrapping of complex parts, and allowing redesign without issue. They were making scientific and military prototypes, so nothing (especially from us!) was cast in stone. Some of the Virtual Reality stuff I did (now in our Canadian Science and Tech museum) was CNC'd to make it look less "agricultural". In this case, they made duplicates, as one set was for a traveling road show (Europe, half way across the pacific, etc).

They could not believe that I did not have CNC at home in my shop; I, too, originally thought CNC was for blasting through material making thousands of parts, until these guys educated me.

So, I use CNC now, and I'm not going back!

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by martin perman on 19/03/2019 17:35:49:

I'm not poo pooing any of the above, I've just spent the last 40 years of my working life installing, commissioning, training and servicing machining centres, Robots, Automation, Injection moulding machines and machine tools all using PLC's, CNC etc they are all fantastic machines and can spit out repetative pieces by the thousand day in and day out but nobody is ever going to get me to understand why a home model engineer would ever want one to make one item, they were designed to make repetive items quicker and easier than several toolmakers could with lathes, mills, grinders and foundry's etc.

The KX1 came with a demonstration piece, possibly meant to be the front cover of a turbine or aero engine? Something I could never produce manually.

When I get the machine running its job will be making complex shapes that I can't do easily or at all by hand.

Neil

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Much the same here, I won't be giving up my manual machines but hope to use the KX3 to do things that I otherwise can't or that would be extreamly difficult and/or time consuming such as..

Flywheels with curly, tapered and oval section spokes

Parts that would need many setups on a rotary table, I have shown earlier a part that can now be made in 10mins that took me a weekend to do manually

Shaped mouldings around things like engine base plates, a lot of work to build up the profiles that would originally have been cast.

Making parts in materials that I can't easily join together such as aluminium and cast iron, this will allow the correct finish on bare parts that would have looked wrong if I fabricated from steel or brass which are easily soldered also no solder lines on soldered parts

Lettering on parts that would have originally have been cast. Wouldn't it be nice to replicate that broken or missing casting from one of your stationary engines?

Plenty more possibilities that this has opened up for me, maybe as I'm not in the engineering trade I don't have anything to get away from.

[Anonymous]

So far I've used all three milling machines (two manual and one CNC) to make my press tooling for forming my traction engine rear wheel strakes. Oh, and the manual lathe as well.

I use CNC for a variety of reasons:

Parts I design myself where time is money and if I can use CNC to profile or pocket strange shapes i don't need to make multiple parts and then fabricate

Multiple parts where I'm too idle to use the manual mill – like the spokes for my traction engine wheels – and not just the outline but a zig-zag hole pattern for the rivets as per full size, which would be a real pain to do manually, even with a DRO

Onesies and twosies like the wing valves for my traction engine water pump or the internal spokes on my hollow pistons that would be very time consuming to do manually

Parts that are impossible to make on manual machines – like proper bevel gears

For me the parts are the important thing, not the machining. So I'll use whatever mix of machines gets me the part quickest, and that includes CNC milling.

Andrew

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by martin perman on 19/03/2019 17:35:49:

…

The enjoyment I get is to make something from nothing with the basics, you go into a jobbing shop today with CNC mills and lathes and you will find a couple of guys in front of computers writing out the programmes and dry running them and then they give the disc to the operator who loads the programme and presses the green button and minds the machine doesnt run out of material, wheres the fun in that.

Martin P

I enjoy basics too, but be careful what you wish for. The tools we use are all historically recent arrivals, considered dangerous innovations in their day and a threat to the livelihoods of time-served craftsmen.

Maudsley's lathe with lead-screws and precision held cutting tools isn't that ancient – about 1800. Twist drills 1861. Electric motors on lathes appeared in the 1930s and weren't common in home workshops before 1950. Previously big lathes were line driven by belts powered by a steam engine, or a water wheel, and small ones by a treadle or treadmill. Electric light in workshops after 1880, with fluorescent lamps appearing in 1930. NC appeared in the 1940s, CNC about 1960.

Really going back to basics would mean making your own iron and hand chiselling it. Wonderful to watch old techniques in a museum, but I'm reluctant to ignore any tool or technique that saves bother especially if it's interesting. It's not as if reading MEW commits us to taking an exam, phew!

Dave

[John HaineParticipant @johnhaine32865]

Just to add to the list of things CNC can do that are impossible by hand….

• Making a modified Synchronome clock pallet that faithfully follows the profile that Frank Hope-Jones describes mathematically in his classic book Electrical Timekeeping but is next to impossible to make by hand.
• Making an equi-angular spiral cam to allow a stepper motor to generate linear motion depending on the number of steps.
• The Gearotic software to generate true involute gears.
• Making gear cutters of any module and number of teeth and true involute on a CNC lathe.
• Making true cycloidal cheeks for a pendulum suspension (if you really wanted to).
• ……

Apart from enabling one to make shapes impossible by traditional methods it's also an interesting process in its own right – not to say exciting as the rotating cutter heads for your pristine machine table!

[Andrew EvansParticipant @andrewevans67134]

Andrew – your PPE / politics gag seems to have escaped without comment. Probably just as well. Andy

[Andrew EvansParticipant @andrewevans67134]

Jason, Neil – how are you finding your new machines for accuracy? Have you had to do much in the way of adjustments? Andy

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

I have not had much chance to play with mine and I think Neil has done even less.

I did do a 20mm x 20mm square hole and that measured 19.99 x 19.98, that is with it still stood on the pallet with no adjustments to gibs, leveling or tram and no backlash compensation in Mach3. Cutter could also be cutting slightly under.

[Former MemberParticipant @formermember32069]

[This posting has been removed]

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

No finish cut, more details of cut at the top of this page, Andrew saw the part at the weekend and said the finish was good so it can't be half bad.

[Former MemberParticipant @formermember32069]

[This posting has been removed]

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by JasonB on 20/03/2019 09:09:45:

I have not had much chance to play with mine and I think Neil has done even less.

Getting mine in the workshop nearly finished me…

Since then the need to work for a living has prevented me putting in the needed time. I also need to source a suitably basic PC!

Neil

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

I managed to finish off the stand yesterday so popped down to one of the local hire shops early this morning and picked up their engine crane.

A bit of faffing about to get the straps short enough which required moving the mill and pallet onto the crane legs which was easy enough using the crane to just take the weight and letting it swing on and then plugging in to move the table forwards to get a better balance and up it went. I could not get quite close enough as the crane legs were hitting the cabinet base but with a bit of lifting and shoving by me while my old Dad eased the crane down had it slid back in place. Crane is back at the hire shop so only a £23 charge which was money well spent.

All ready to play with now.

Edited By JasonB on 22/03/2019 10:21:10

Edited By JasonB on 22/03/2019 10:22:13

[Ron LadenParticipant @ronladen17547]

Well done Jason, looks like a good little spot for it there. Is it in your woodworking shop, I think you mentioned thats where it would have to live. I bet you have a number of engine parts all lined up for it already.

[blowlampParticipant @blowlamp]

Is the stand going to be braced?

Once the milling table starts jigging about with rapid X & Y moves, things can move about a bit if not rigid enough.

Martin.

[Old SchoolParticipant @oldschool]

My KX1 was delivered yesterday and a couple of weeks ago I bought a Aldi 3D printer, I am going to be on a steep learning curve.

When I know what I am doing one of the first jobs is going to be removing the metal from the inside of pistons it's not s fun job to do on a manual machine in batches of ten.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Ron, yes its in the woodwork shop, used to have a radial arm saw there but can't remember the last time I used it so decided that could go. few things in the pipeline that I'd like to use the CNC for.

Martin, I don't think its going to move about, if it did it would need to rip the cabinet on the right and worktop on the left off the wall as it is tied into those as well as the wall behind it. Probably more rigid than the metal cabinets that they make to put them on as they have no bracing at the front.

Old School, keep us posted of how you get on with yours.

[Anonymous]

This is the stand I made for my CNC mill from 50×50 ERW steel tube, complete with coolant tank and fitting for a pump:

I even did a calculation to check the buckling load of the uprights.

Andrew

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Nothing so scientific here, I know I could stand on the end of one of those short CLS legs so that's more than 25% of the mill's weight, Fixings to back wall cabinet and worktop legs will also take some of the weight.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

My workshop is such an unholy mess I can't criticise anyone but on the subject of buckling, it looks rather easy to accidentally kick one of those legs out:

My list of H&S infringements includes not owning a Fire Extinguisher…

Dave

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 22/03/2019 13:54:12

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