KWh question

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by opochka on 05/08/2017 01:57:20:

With a smart meter fitted in your home, the electricity companies will be able to instantly jack up the electric prices remotely, overnight, and not even bother telling you about it.

They don't need a smart meter to do that, but with or without one it would be illegal.

Unlike petrol pumps you can't just drive to the next energy supplier, so by law they have to give notice of tariff changes and you have to be able to change supplier without penalty.

The impetus behind smart meters is increasing efficiency, and even though that means less money for the distributors they are more worried about the penalties and consequences of running out of generating capacity.

This is all part of an 'internet of things' policy that will see freezers switch off at peak times (unless their temperature rises too high) and run hard when electricity is in over-supply.

[martin perman 1Participant @martinperman1]

The one thing that the smart meters have done for me is let my wife see how much she waste by leaving things on standby, I can see on a day to day basis how much energy we have used and I don't have to crawl under the pantry shelf to read the meter's.

Edited By martin perman on 05/08/2017 09:28:21

[Clive IndiaParticipant @cliveindia]

Posted by martin perman on 05/08/2017 09:27:43:

The one thing that the smart meters have done for me is let my wife see how much she waste by leaving things on standby, I can see on a day to day basis how much energy we have used and I don't have to crawl under the pantry shelf to read the meters.

How very sad it should come to this.

[martin perman 1Participant @martinperman1]

Posted by Clive India on 05/08/2017 09:57:59:

Posted by martin perman on 05/08/2017 09:27:43:

The one thing that the smart meters have done for me is let my wife see how much she waste by leaving things on standby, I can see on a day to day basis how much energy we have used and I don't have to crawl under the pantry shelf to read the meters.

How very sad it should come to this.

Nothing sad about it all as it saves money on our energy bills and headaches from banging my head from reading the meter's.

Martin P

[opochkaParticipant @opochka]

it's a government promoted myth that a smart meter will save you money.
Because the government wants you to have one installed.
You will use the same amount of electricity whether you have a new meter or not.

The only way to cut down on your electricity costs, is to turn thing off or don't use them.

[martin perman 1Participant @martinperman1]

Posted by opochka on 05/08/2017 10:27:37:

it's a government promoted myth that a smart meter will save you money.
Because the government wants you to have one installed.
You will use the same amount of electricity whether you have a new meter or not.

The only way to cut down on your electricity costs, is to turn thing off or don't use them.

As already explained, my wife now see's how much the energy costs so she turn things off, I didn't say the meter saves money.

[MuzzerParticipant @muzzer]

Posted by Andrew Entwistle on 04/08/2017 21:19:17:

One feature that a smart meter provides to the supplier is the ability to disconnect the supply remotely (avoiding the need to gain access to the property). Just like with direct debits one has to trust that the institution will play by the rules, but it is possible to end up in a weak position if things go wrong e.g. following a malware attack.

Edited By Andrew Entwistle on 04/08/2017 21:23:02

Any evidence to support this assertion? As far as I've seen so far they simply measure the voltage and current. If they also had to incorporate a 200-300A contactor, that would be a different beast.

Lots of opinions and half truths as ever.

Take a look at a few manuals if you want to understand what they do rather than ignorantly opining about them.

Murray

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

There is sooo many peculiar ideas on this topic.

If you want to convert gas to leccy, get a fuel cell pack. Expensive but 65% efficient. Look up "Ceres" fuel cells or search out the relevant "Fully Charged" U-toob vid.

Grid energy from wind or PV does not have a fuel cost. Yes it is subsidised, but likely no more than the dirty fossil fuel burners where the clean-up costs are ignored. So what is the grid efficiency for renewables?

Energy efficiency meters have been around for years. Smart meters are different. Sending back readings (likely at your cost) at any time or times can/will provide the suppliers with more information than you might think – like when you turn on the kettle, per eg.

[KWILParticipant @kwil]

The word is offered a smart meter. You can decline it. I for one haver already done so and will not be connecting any appliances to the Internet.

What fun, hack all the freezers so that in the summer when everyone comes home from their holidays to discover wet freezer!

[Andrew EntwistleParticipant @andrewentwistle]

When our Honeywell AS300P smart meter was installed I asked the installer why the meter didn't just use a current transformer for metering, rather than having high current tails in and out (probably for better tamper protection). I was told by the installer that the meter incorporated a contactor that could be operated remotely via the attached AM110R communications module and that this was to be able to carry out disconnection without the expense of arranging entry into a property. The Honeywell brochure does mention an integrated contactor, so I had no reason to doubt the assertion of the installer.

Andrew.

[SamsarandaParticipant @samsaranda]

The quoted cost of installing smart meters nationwide was £195.00 on every households bills, I am sure that as with every "establishment" quoted project cost this is an underestimate and we will never be told the true cost per household. I believe Denmark has completed their smart meter installation programme ( far smaller population the UK) and the conclusion reached was that their programme had not benefitted their consumers and effectively was a waste of money.

Dave

[SamsarandaParticipant @samsaranda]

The quoted cost of installing smart meters nationwide was £195.00 on every households bills, I am sure that as with every "establishment" quoted project cost this is an underestimate and we will never be told the true cost per household. I believe Denmark has completed their smart meter installation programme ( far smaller population the UK) and the conclusion reached was that their programme had not benefitted their consumers and effectively was a waste of money.

Dave

[Andrew EntwistleParticipant @andrewentwistle]

I daren't open the smart meter, but it looks like there is plenty of room for it to enclose for example a 43 mm x 32 mm x 21 mm 120A Johnson Electric Ledex EM100 remote disconnect relay. There appears to be a new IEC standard that covers latching relays for smart meter load switching IEC62055-31. The meter was installed on behalf of Scottish Power in Manchester, but  since I changed supplier the smart functionality is no longer used and I am back to submitting readings online – what a complete waste of money, unless the meter can be firmware updated to be compatible with the new supplier in the future. 

Andrew.

 

Edited By Andrew Entwistle on 05/08/2017 13:28:41

Edited By Andrew Entwistle on 05/08/2017 13:49:59

[Andrew EntwistleParticipant @andrewentwistle]

Murray,

I find most of your postings very informative and from a similar viewpoint to my own, so I was a bit taken aback when you stated that I was guilty of ignorant opining for simply passing on information that was not opinion or hearsay. I do enjoy visiting this forum, but I have seen too often an unnecessary level of hostility towards posters. I am thick skinned enough to not let this affect my use of the forum but I don't think this is true for all prospective posters.

Andrew.

[Brian Sweeting 2Participant @briansweeting2]

Posted by Muzzer on 05/08/2017 11:16:36:

Posted by Andrew Entwistle on 04/08/2017 21:19:17:

One feature that a smart meter provides to the supplier is the ability to disconnect the supply remotely (avoiding the need to gain access to the property). Just like with direct debits one has to trust that the institution will play by the rules, but it is possible to end up in a weak position if things go wrong e.g. following a malware attack.

Edited By Andrew Entwistle on 04/08/2017 21:23:02

Any evidence to support this assertion? As far as I've seen so far they simply measure the voltage and current. If they also had to incorporate a 200-300A contactor, that would be a different beast.

Lots of opinions and half truths as ever.

Take a look at a few manuals if you want to understand what they do rather than ignorantly opining about them.

Murray

Checked out a Smart Meter manual as you requested and it states..

(Quote)

Contactor Disconnect

The main 100A contactor can be  disconnected locally or remotely by the Utility.

This can be driven directly or driven by the meter at load limiting thresholds

(endquote)

Whose half truth ?

Edited By Brian Ess on 05/08/2017 15:40:18

Edited By Brian Ess on 05/08/2017 15:41:26

[Bill DawesParticipant @billdawes]

When I heard about smart meters a while ago I was a bit puzzled as the talk suggested it was something new.

We had a smart meter fitted some years ago and I remember all the same talk about benefits and getting a common industry standard for their design.

From our point of view it made no difference, we only use power we need, give or take a bit of paranoid meter watching. Declined our latest offer for a new one, our previous one became useless as a smart meter when we left our then supplier. Still functions as a normal meter.

Bill D.

[Alan Johnson 7Participant @alanjohnson7]

You must remeber that "quality of supply" is very important. Small generators on their own do not make sinusoidal wave forms – like you get from the mains. Most suppiers are not happy to have poor quality inputs to the grid. It may not be important, but it may make insurance claims difficult – especially from your neighbours!

Regards,

Alan.

(45 years in the supply industry)

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

I must admit Murray's 300A figure had me wondering, most domestic properties are on an 80A fuse.

Neil

[Niels AbildgaardParticipant @nielsabildgaard33719]

Posted by Alan Johnson 7 on 05/08/2017 16:35:02:

You must remeber that "quality of supply" is very important. Small generators on their own do not make sinusoidal wave forms – like you get from the mains. Most suppiers are not happy to have poor quality inputs to the grid. It may not be important, but it may make insurance claims difficult – especially from your neighbours!

Regards,

Alan.

(45 years in the supply industry)

A Madame Jo from Hampshire sells solar DC kWh for silly money to grid.

Generators are closer to being 50Hz AC.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 05/08/2017 17:24:46:

I must admit Murray's 300A figure had me wondering, most domestic properties are on an 80A fuse.

Neil

My dream workshop would need a 300A supply. Perhaps Murray's got his already!

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

As I get older, I become more cynical, and no longer believe that anything the Government, Utility suppliers, or insurance companies tel me is "for my benefit" "We must tighten our belts" actually becomes "You must tighten your belt"

Slowly, I am learning not to be an early adopter. Pretty soon afterwards, the device becomes much cheaper, and the sound of gnashing teeth is heard (especially mine!)

We have an electricity consumption monitor, (gift from Daughter) but it seems to have little effect on consumption. There is a frightening minimum that is needed to keep the house and workshop running, and we save a little by turning off things when not needed, (As long as we remember!)

It may take a LONG time for a Smart meter to find a home here.

Howard

[Anonymous]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 05/08/2017 17:24:46:

I must admit Murray's 300A figure had me wondering, most domestic properties are on an 80A fuse.

I thought that the current (yeah, I know) standard for domestic properties was 100A. I've just looked in the garage and sure enough I've got three 100A fuses. My system replaced an old one of 60A.

Andrew

[John HaineParticipant @johnhaine32865]

Our non-smart electronic meter has a 100A contactor to control the economy 7 supply to storage heaters.

[Phil WhitleyParticipant @philwhitley94135]

This from smart energy GB,

Does a smart meter mean my energy can be cut off more easily?

No. You’re protected by strict regulations against your energy supplier switching off or disconnecting your gas or electricity supply. This protection remains as strong with smart meters as it is with traditional meters.

Please also note that UK energy consumption is falling, not rising, and has fallen 15% in the last decade. We do not need a new Hinkley plant, and it will not provide any EXTRA capacity, as the old plant is ready to be shut down. Coal is very little used now, by far the biggest part of the load is met by combined cycle gas turbine.which is approaching 48% efficient. One of the main problems is nuclear, which is steam turbine generation, thus only about 33% efficient, and which at best can only provide about 24% of peak load with all stations flat out, which they almost never are due to maintenance, refuelling etc, but they are the only electricity generator that gets to sell every watt they produce, thus renewable enrgy like wind is actually turned off if nuclear stations have excess capacity. It would make far more sense to use every watt we can from wind, solar and other renewables, and then top up with CCGT and use nuclear as a last resort, as it is the most expensive by far, if you also count the huge cost of decommisioning, which is also paid by the taxpayer. this "keeping the lights on" claim is a myth, we have many oil fired back up stations, which are fully fuelled and ready to go, should there be a really major power station failure, they are started once a year to check them out

As all lighting in homes shops offices and streets turns to LED there will be further huge cuts in consumption. As a rule of thumb, a CFL uses 45% less than an incandescent lamp, and an LED uses 95% less than an incandescent, which is probably the reason that EDF are getting cold feet over Hinkley, they doubt its long term profitability, even though the electricity it will produce will be sold to us three times the cost of todays power. What smart metering, combined with the internet of things is supposed to do, is enable load to be matched to generating capacity at peak times, and spare capacity that appears suddenly from sources like wind to be used instead of rejected. it is supposedly a way of increasing efficiency, and thus profit, but personally,I think it was better when it was nationalised, and there were two tariffs, domestic, and commercial, although strangely, we in the UK were the only people in Europe who charged commercial (bulk) users more than domestic.

http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/ gives you all the info in real time! ( updates every two minutes anyway!!)

Phil

[opochkaParticipant @opochka]

" Every household will, ultimately, pay for the new meter roll-out via their bills. As energy companies are quick to say, this is one reason why bills are rising. "

I KNEW they were not going to be free !

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/consumer-affairs/six-reasons-say-no-smart-meter/

.

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