KNEW Piercing-Saw Frames

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

This month’s Horological Journal includes a brief but enthusiastic comment by Mike Flannery [Bench View] about the KNEW CONCEPTS saw frame.

**LINK**

https://www.knewconcepts.com/MK3-saws.php

I have wondered about these for a while …

… They look very nicely made, and are presumably quite stiff ; but does any forum member know how their performance/handling compares with the ‘classic’ design ?

Grateful for any thoughts.

MichaelG.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

[Bo’sunParticipant @bosun58570]

Hi Michael,

They are certainly well very made and stiffer than a conventional Coping or Fret saw. I wouldn't say they're any stiffer than a conventional Piercing saw that has a relatively small frame and hence quite stiff to start with.

The Knew saws are easier to tension and if needed, have more throat depth.

No inexpensive, so I guess you get what you pay for.

[Rod RenshawParticipant @rodrenshaw28584]

I don't have any experience of these saws but the woodworkers' supply house "Workshop Heaven" have stock of a variety of types, including a VERY expensive titanium type so they are available in UK – Usual disclaimer.

Rod

[Bo’sunParticipant @bosun58570]

I should add that the "quick tension" feature on some of the Knew saws is useful, but not a game changer.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Thanks for that, Bo’sun

Although I do have coping and fret saws, they are not often used, and I doubt I could justify the cost of the KNEW version.

It’s the piercing-saw size that has been of occasional interest … I have an excellent old one, inherited from [and possibly made by] my Father; but it does have quite a shallow throat.

Mike Flannery admits to suffering numerous blade breakages with his Eclipse saw, and [therefore ?] rejoices in the performance of the KNEW … but frankly, I’m sure mine is a much better-balanced frame than the Eclipse; so I wonder if I would really notice the improvement.

MichaelG.

.

Edit: __ I don’t know what vintage of Eclipse frame Mr Flannery has … but some of the comments here make sad reading:

https://www.cooksongold.com/Jewellery-Tools/Fixed-Saw-Frame,-Eclipse-375mm—Frame-Depth-prcode-999-734

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 30/09/2021 18:20:06

[Bo’sunParticipant @bosun58570]

I would say, if you need extra throat depth and easier tension adjustment, then consider buying one. Otherwise, stick with what you've got.

I can't vouch for them as "piercing" saws as such, but for removing the waste when cutting dovetail joints, I wouldn't be without mine.

Not had any issues with my Eclipse piercing saw, and still use it for metal cutting. Blade fitting can be a bit fiddly, but you get used to it.

Not sure if they all do it, but my Knew saw frame can swivel to get better reach when close to an edge (if that makes sense?).

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Good summary

MichaelG.

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

Never had any problems with my Eclipse frame. The ability to rotate the blade would be useful on occasions though.

Russell

[Rod RenshawParticipant @rodrenshaw28584]

I have older "Eclipse" coping and piercing saw frames and they work well enough. Like Russell I would find the ability to rotate the blade in the piercing saw frames useful sometimes. I have found that these frames show up at car boot sales quite often and can be bought for peanuts, which is useful as one can keep different sizes of blade in each frame.

The "Eclipse" name has been bought by someone who now makes them in the Far East so it's possible new saws are not so satisfactory.

Rod

[Bob StevensonParticipant @bobstevenson13909]

Several members of my clock club (EFHC) have these and swear by them,…but then, given the high cost they are not likely to say otherwise.

Personally, after having a play I decided against for the time being and I'm currently nocking up my own saw with specific features that I will need on my next clock frames. I have two Victorian piercing saws and, actually, they are just as effective as the KnewConcept frames due to having tensioning screws which most conventional piercing saws don't now have. Where the 'KC' saws score is with being able to angle the frame to the side of the work piece,..but only the most expensive models have this.

When 'KC' saws first appeared form America they actually claimed that they were specifically painted red to enhance their use!!……..Not sure that I really believe this, although 'nicer' tools certainly can give the user added confidence.

Pretty much any piercing saw is ok for cutting out wheels but when one starts on clock frames several inches long and 6mm thick you quickly find out what needs to be redesigned!

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Rod Renshaw on 30/09/2021 21:20:07:

[…]

The "Eclipse" name has been bought by someone who now makes them in the Far East so it's possible new saws are not so satisfactory.

Rod

.

Hence the edit appended to my previous post

… Perhaps “They don’t make ‘em like they used to” would be appropriate.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Bob Stevenson on 30/09/2021 21:22:29:

Several members of my clock club (EFHC) have these and swear by them,…but then, given the high cost they are not likely to say otherwise.

[…]

Pretty much any piercing saw is ok for cutting out wheels but when one starts on clock frames several inches long and 6mm thick you quickly find out what needs to be redesigned!

.

Thanks, Bob … You’ve pretty-much convinced me that I don’t need one

I would be interested to see your design though !

My biggest concern at the moment [hence my note about Eclipse] is understanding Mike Flannery’s ‘Road to Damascus’ conversion:

Cutting an anchor from 6mm Gauge Plate, he states:

“I was initially using my old Eclipse piercing saw for the job and can report back that for each 10mm of forward progress I was breaking a blade or two (or three, or four).”

… and then he bought the KNEW and all was well.

MichaelG.

[Bob StevensonParticipant @bobstevenson13909]

The 'Eclipse' piercing saw has no provision for adjusting the tension of the blade directly. When you fit the blade you hold the saw frame against the bench and your, er, gut so that it is bent slightly closed…when the screws are tightened yo release the frame which 'springs' open thus tensioning the blade,…but, you can't adjust easily….

The KC saw has a camm/lever arrangement that allows greater tension and thus a 'stiffer' blade…

When cutting steel (especially 6mm) you need all the stiffness you can get……I use my Victorian piercing saw for steel without any problems and pride myself on not breaking ANY blades….best quality blades help considerably, bye the way.

[DMBParticipant @dmb]

I have an Eclipse piercing saw, bought new about 4/5 decades ago. Has a couple of small levers to twiddle the blade around to any angle of users choice. It looks like the first one on Cooksons site and under the "you may like" section, is a picçy of a different design.I bought an el cheapo one like this from Proops' stand at the long defunct Brighton Modelworld exhibition. Used it satisfactorily.

John

[DMBParticipant @dmb]

Gauge plate = high carbon = harder + 6mm thick, would that be asking a bit too much of such small saw blades?

[Bob StevensonParticipant @bobstevenson13909]

DMB…….No, guage plate is basically like O1 and comes in soft, ready to cut state….certainly it's not like cutting brass but quite doable providing you work steadily, use good quality blade and do'nt try to force the pace. Unlike brass I find a drop of light lubricant helps…..WD40 is as good as anything.

[DMBParticipant @dmb]

Talking about clocks, the Big Ben restoration team now taking up residence in Brighton, repairing the old Q. Vic. clock in its tower at the South end of Queens Road which leads straight from main station to seafront. (South of road junction next to clock tower, road is called West st.) Apparently, the golden orb on the top rises up a spike then drops down on the hour. I've lived here 70+ years and never seen that spectacle. Ball contraption designed by Magnus Volk. Local newspaper, "Evening Argus " shows photo of clock's works with 1888 on the cast iron frame.

Edited By DMB on 30/09/2021 23:11:29

[DMBParticipant @dmb]

Thanks for the mention, Michael, just Knew it would likely be beyond what I'm prepared to pay for a saw even if it does have fancy design features and of course a matching price. Bet someone tries to flog it in UK at an exchange rate of 1:1 to catch a mug. Probably blame shipping costs etc.,etc. Remember that TV programme, Arthur with his "overheads".

[Dave WoottonParticipant @davewootton]

I bought one of these back from a trip to Canada for my then neighbour who was a silversmith, he asked me as they were unavailable in this country at the time and he has seen good reviews of them.

He was very enthusiastic about it and liked it a lot, however after a few months he went back to his old saw, when asked him about it he just said he preferred it, but couldn't explain why. Said it just felt right.

I suppose that's the thing with hand tools, sometimes they just feel right in the hand.

This was I think 2017 and the price equated to around the forty quid mark then.

Dave

[Dave WoottonParticipant @davewootton]

Further to above post SWMBO tells me it was 2019, so that must be correct!

Dave

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Dave Wootton on 01/10/2021 06:48:05:

[…]

He was very enthusiastic about it and liked it a lot, however after a few months he went back to his old saw, when asked him about it he just said he preferred it, but couldn't explain why. Said it just felt right.

[…]

.

I can certainly relate to that, Dave

My Dad’s saw feels like a natural extension to my hand.

MichaelG.

[DMBParticipant @dmb]

Women, bah, how frustrating, they're always right!

[Gary WoodingParticipant @garywooding25363]

I have 3 piercing saw frames – an Eclipse, a very old one with no name, and an early KC. The old one has a deep throat and is used only when necessary. The Eclipse was my first and only one for a number of years, but has been relegated to the job of sawing off lengths of rod or tube in the chenier cutter because the KC is so much easier to use for intricate work. It's noticeably lighter, with a better balance, and the blade tensioning method makes it far easier to cope with the problem of removing and replacing the blade when sawing out lots of separate internal sections. See photo.

The conventional way of blade tensioning is to slightly bend the frame by bracing one end against the bench and pushing the other while clamping the blade. The problem arises when having to also support the workpiece at the same time in order to stop it rotating and breaking the blade; think of a 6/0 (0.18mm thick) blade in a 0.6mm hole. The screw tensioning of the KC is sooo much easier.

[File HandleParticipant @filehandle]

I have 2 piercing saws. One very old, one much newer. Both are tensioned by adjusting the length of the frame. this means that broken blades can often be reused, albeit with a shorter blade. i much prefer the older one. If I need more depth I also have 2 fret saw frames.

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