“Kiv” or Kiev?

[Phil StevensonParticipant @philstevenson54758]

I've tried and failed to find out when and why the BBC (and others probably) decide to stop calling the beleaguered city Kee-eff and moved to Kiv. No apparent change to Moscow, Warsaw, Vienna and a thousand others. Any enlightened ideas?

[Phil StevensonParticipant @philstevenson54758]

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

Because the Russians call it 'Kiev', and the Ukrainians call it 'Kiv'. For the time being at least it is still a Ukrainian city, and hopefully it will remain that way

[Tony Pratt 1Participant @tonypratt1]

Don't we call it Kiev as in 'chicken Kiev'? The BBC [and others] seem to have a habit of trying to be more culturally acceptable if that is the correct phase? Two more examples are their pronunciation of Muslim & Taliban.Can't really comment any further as I am a white, European, privileged male, so my views/opinions don't count.

Tony

[Adrian R2Participant @adrianr2]

Because the people who live in it asked that it be referred to using their pronounciation, several years ago, but it's only recent circumstances that have caused us to pay attention – nuff said.

**LINK**

[CalumParticipant @calumgalleitch87969]

Posted by Tony Pratt 1 on 31/03/2022 13:39:52:

my views/opinions don't count.

Tony, it is not that your views do not count, it is just that yours are not the *only* views that count. Moreover, taking the time to understand the world as other people see it is an enjoyable activity in its own right.

[Bill Davies 2Participant @billdavies2]

On videos, I hear native Ukrainians pronounce it "Ki-yeev", but not stressed, so it might sound like Keev. On Phil's initial point, I did hear a Western presenter say Warsaw, then say "Var-sa-va", presumably the native pronunciation. Interestingly, there seem to be US journalists and presenters using "Mosc-oh" and not the Americal "cow". Still, nowhere near native "Muskva".

The Russian pronunciation seems to be taken as an insult by Ukrainians. I also note that placenames ending in "-iw" seem to be pronounced by Ukrainians as a "w" and not as "v". Given the size of the country and its history, I guess the may be marked variations around the country. And for the desire to take the country under Russian domination, we have to (partly) blame the (now named) Kyivan Rus, or at least Russian's view of their origins.

Oh, and I get annoyed when Putin becomes Pyootin. But that's me.

Bill

[Mick B1Participant @mickb1]

Posted by Tony Pratt 1 on 31/03/2022 13:39:52:

Don't we call it Kiev as in 'chicken Kiev'? The BBC [and others] seem to have a habit of trying to be more culturally acceptable if that is the correct phase? Two more examples are their pronunciation of Muslim & Taliban.Can't really comment any further as I am a white, European, privileged male, so my views/opinions don't count.

Tony

Well, I think some supermarkets have decided to rename the relevant prepared meals as 'Chicken Kyiv'.

I wonder whether sheet music and recordings of Moussorgsky's 'Pictures At An Exhibition' will have the piece previously known as 'The Great Gate Of Kiev' correspondingly renamed? Bit more difficult, that one, 'cos the composer was a Russian, so why shouldn't he name it in his own language?

Renaming of cities seems to've been quite a common thing, especially to give more accurate rendition in the inhabitants' language – is Beijing a better rendition than Peking? Cologne or Köln started life as Colonia Agrippina under the Romans – whose language puts that better? Perhaps that depends on whatever the Latin pronunciation was.

 

Edited By Mick B1 on 31/03/2022 14:32:44

[Roger BestParticipant @rogerbest89007]

Chicken Kiev was invented when Russia ruled what is now Ukraine, hence the Russian name.

I am happy its being changed in the same way as I am happy that Ayers Rock has had its name restored to Uluru, some people have a greater right to name something and we should respect that our historic, anglicised name is decidedly second best.

[Peter Ellis 5Participant @peterellis5]

Lvov is another one. Having been Lithuanian, Austrian, Polish, Russian and Ukrainian, it is hardly surprising.

Cheers

Peter

[Tony Pratt 1Participant @tonypratt1]

Posted by Calum Galleitch on 31/03/2022 14:17:21:

Posted by Tony Pratt 1 on 31/03/2022 13:39:52:

my views/opinions don't count.

Tony, it is not that your views do not count, it is just that yours are not the *only* views that count. Moreover, taking the time to understand the world as other people see it is an enjoyable activity in its own right.

I will have to disagree with that one Callum

Tony

[Phil StevensonParticipant @philstevenson54758]

Well, lots of interesting points! First and foremost I'm assuming there is universal support for Ukraine's right to self determination and if the relatively minor matter of how to pronounce the name of their capital city gives even a modicum of succour, then that's fine by me.

If I object to anything it is to the BBC's selective wokeness. Thanks Adrian to the link to the Grauniad article – first time I've seen that message in writing but it would appear that pronouncing it "Keev" isn't quite right either. Russians say "Kee-eff", Ukrainians say "Kee-iv"; two consonants but a subtle difference in the last vowel which I would guess will escape most Westerners. I started exploring the derivation of Chicken Kiev (sic) and quickly gave up when I mixed up my Novo-Mikhailovskaya kotleta with my kotłeta de-voljaj po-kyjivśky . I had always thought it was name after a dish cooked for Napoleon when he was havung his dust-up with Russia; how wrong was I!

In the light of what poor civilians are suffering right now, this all seems rather petty. My thoughts are with them.

Anyone want to join a movement to ask the French to stop saying Edimbourg and start saying Edinbruh?

Edited By Phil Stevenson on 31/03/2022 15:35:30

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Nothing new in place names changing over time, or being pronounced differently, or oddly.

Beaulieu – pronounced Bewlee
Bicester – pronounced Bister
Llanelli – pronounced Th-lan-ethlee
Bristol – originally Bristow, locals call it Brissel
Bombay – MumbaI
Cork – Cobh
Paris – pronounced Paree by the French
London – my friend says he's from Saff Lunnon
Hawick – pronounced 'Hoick'
Edinburgh – pronounced Edinbruh, not 'Eden Borough'
Mount Everest is named after the surveyor Colonel Everest, but his surname is pronounced 'Eve Rest'
Bath, Somerset – no-one knows: Baf, Bawth, Barf
Leominster – pronounced Lemster
Thailand – Siam
Istanbul – Constantinople
Aachen – Aix-la-Chapelle
The Hague – pronounced 's‑Gravenhage by the Dutch, who are the only people in the world who can say it correctly.
Ruislip – pronounced Ri-slip
Magdalen College – pronounced Maudlin

The list is endless.

Dave

[Phil StevensonParticipant @philstevenson54758]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 31/03/2022 15:38:38:

Cork – Cobh

The Hague – pronounced 's‑Gravenhage by the Dutch, who are the only people in the world who can say it correctly.

The list is endless.

Dave

Endless indeed and maybe a signal not to feel too slighted if somebody well-intentioned gets it wrong.

Forgive me but as a Paddy of sorts I have to point out that the town of Cobh and the city of Cork are two different places. Cobh (formerly known as Queenstown) is in the County of Cork and is probably best known as the last landing point of the Titanic.

God help us alll if the Dutch get shirty about pronunciation of place names and expect us to name places "properly". Fortunately they are among the most relaxed polyglots around.

[Rik ShawParticipant @rikshaw]

" The list is endless "

Around here we have :

Flitwick – pronounced Flitik

Cogenhoe pronounced Cookner

But my two favourites are English christian names – Featherstonhaugh and Cholmondeley pronounced Fanshaw and Chumley respectively.

Rik

[Anthony KnightsParticipant @anthonyknights16741]

Rik. you forgot Happisburg (Haisborough) and Whymondham (Windham).

[roy entwistleParticipant @royentwistle24699]

Rik how about Slaithwaite ( Slowit ) or Barnoldswick ( Barlick ) or Alnwick ( Anick )

[Jon LawesParticipant @jonlawes51698]

Posted by Tony Pratt 1 on 31/03/2022 15:14:17:

Posted by Calum Galleitch on 31/03/2022 14:17:21:

Posted by Tony Pratt 1 on 31/03/2022 13:39:52:

my views/opinions don't count.

Tony, it is not that your views do not count, it is just that yours are not the *only* views that count. Moreover, taking the time to understand the world as other people see it is an enjoyable activity in its own right.

I will have to disagree with that one Callum

Tony

I'm with Callum. Your opinions do count, but yours have equal value to the other views, and some are struggling to adapt to that.

[GeorgineerParticipant @georgineer]

Posted by Mick B1 on 31/03/2022 14:30:43:

I wonder whether sheet music and recordings of Moussorgsky's 'Pictures At An Exhibition' will have the piece previously known as 'The Great Gate Of Kiev' correspondingly renamed?

If President Poo-tin (which I am told is also the Russian word for bed-pan) does to Kyiv what he has done to Mariupol and a large swathe of Syria, what it's called will be of academic interest only.

George

[Paul RhodesParticipant @paulrhodes20292]

All a bit Angela Ripponish………” guerilla” etc. Not forgetting the pastiche by Not The Nine O’Clock News.

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

Posted by Tony Pratt 1 on 31/03/2022 15:14:17:

Posted by Calum Galleitch on 31/03/2022 14:17:21:

Posted by Tony Pratt 1 on 31/03/2022 13:39:52:

my views/opinions don't count.

Tony, it is not that your views do not count, it is just that yours are not the *only* views that count. Moreover, taking the time to understand the world as other people see it is an enjoyable activity in its own right.

I will have to disagree with that one Callum

Tony

so what don't you agree with?

1. that your views count
2. that other people's views count
3. trying to understand the world as other people see it is an enjoyable activity in its own right.

[bernard towersParticipant @bernardtowers37738]

wymondham only has one h in it

 

Edited By bernard towers on 31/03/2022 21:56:27

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

Reading 'Reading' in Reading on a signpost I got rather lost.

One of the ones that has annoyed me for a long time is pronouncing the children's book hero Don Quixote as Keeotay rather misses the educational connection with the word quixotic.

[Jon LawesParticipant @jonlawes51698]

Posted by Bazyle on 31/03/2022 22:16:10:

One of the ones that has annoyed me for a long time is pronouncing the children's book hero Don Quixote as Keeotay rather misses the educational connection with the word quixotic.

But wouldn't deliberately saying it wrong to fit our narrative be worse? Especially as the original is three or four hundred years old and predates any childrens variant of it by a few centuries.

[Nick WheelerParticipant @nickwheeler]

Posted by Anthony Knights on 31/03/2022 17:50:26:

Rik. you forgot Happisburg (Haisborough) and Whymondham (Windham).

Trottiscliffe (Trosley)

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