Just installed a super 7

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

I have always found the advice that tooling is a good way to learn odd. What is the difference between learning by make tools or learning by making a basic barstock engine? Or even as in the recent thread learning buy making a few spacers and washers for the persons main interest of motor bikes, or any other related hobby where the machine is a tool and is wanted to allow them to further their main hobby interest?

In all cases if you muck up it is just a new bit of barstock that is needed for a second attempt. I would not advise to start learning on an expensive casting, etc but the bit of barstockd oe snot know if it is going to become a tool, model or anything else.

We have seen the demise of the availability of the workshop tool castings as it is cheaper to buy a ready made version from the fare east so there is little cost saving to be made by making your own these days. Those coming into the home machining hobby may still be working and have family commitments so time is limited and they would rather be using the machine for what they want than making tools.

[JasonB]

On JasonB Said:

If running under power is is safer to not use any form of handle or key to prevent rotation. Simply grip in your hand an when the cutter bottoms out or you reach the point where you want the thread to stop let it spin – No risk of a crash and nothing spinning round to hit your hand. As for speed I usually run a lot faster than a Myfor’s backgear. Often run in reverse to back the die off the work but may not be a good idea on a Myford.

Both shop bought holders as I’d rather be making models than tools

Very nice. Does it work as well for larger dies, such as 5/16″ or 8mm? And with straight fluted taps rather than the spiral taps?

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Yes but getting to the limits of grip depending on the actual pitch & material being cut. Thread length can’t be too long due to swarf build up when tapping with a traditional straight flute tap.

[JasonB]

On JasonB Said:

Those coming into the home machining hobby may still be working and have family commitments so time is limited and they would rather be using the machine for what they want than making tools.

Difficult though you may find it to understand, some of us enjoy making tools as an end in itself. For one thing, the parts are generally, almost by definition, a handy size compared to the often fiddly bits of a model.

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Charles, yes indeed. Making tools and tooling seems to have become a bit of hobby in itself for me, and very a very satisfying one too.

Jason, that said, where do you buy those hand-held tailstock tap and die holders and what is the official terminology to search for?

[Ches Green UKParticipant @chesgreenuk]

I was thinking the same as Hopper, Jason….those tap and die holders look well made, as does the small chuck.

I do already have similar devices but they are fairly cheaply made and suffer from quite a bit of slop.

Ches

[KEITH BEAUMONTParticipant @keithbeaumont45476]

I think the advice to make a few tools as an introduction to turning is historical. Most  lads entering an Engineering apprenticeship”back in the day”, spent the first year making a few tools. A skilled man was expected to provide his own small tools, usually, and this was the start.

I was given Sparey’s  “The Amatuers Lathe”  when it was first published as a Chrismas presant and could not start to make some of the tools soon enough. I still use the Die Stock holder regulally. I also wanted to make engines and followed up by making an S 50. I can well remember the adrenalin “rush” when I took it to work to put compressed air in to it and it actually ran first time!

Keith.

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

For a newcomer, making tools is a good means of gaining experience and confidence, and becoming faniliar with the Machine.

Better to make mistakes on a bit of bar that was destined to be a Tap Wrench, than a casting from a kit. That could be an expensive mistake!

And, the simple tools made, such as Tap Wrench, Tap or Die Holders, Centre Height Gauge, Mandrel Handle, will all be useful in the future.

And, as Hopper says, a satifying activity, since something useful, capable of being used to make other things, results.

Howard

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Charles, I never said there was anything wrong with people wanting to make tools. Just why a tool is a better learning item than anything else made from bar.

Howard You still did not get my point a tool can be made from barstock so no risk to an expensive casting. Basic (and more complex) models can also be made from barstock. There is no difference if you muck it up or make it as required, it is still a bit of bar at then end of the day so why is a tool a better subject?

Hopper/Ches The tailstock die holder I have had for many years, possibly from Chronos, had it for at least 30 years. I did make another holder for it a few years ago to take 20 an d25mm OD dies as it was 13/16 and 1″ originally.

The tailstock tap holder also doubles are a die holder, as the holders/chucks are interchangable. Very nicely machined, if you pull the handle off the MT shank it gives a nice “Pop” so certainly not slack. It was given to me by Ketan to assess as he wa sthinking of taking them on. There were a couple of downsides so it wa sdecided not to stock them. I think I have seen them since, will see what I can find.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

That did not take long, warco look to have them and also on amazon etc for the likes of Hopper who is not in the UK

[Ches Green UKParticipant @chesgreenuk]

Thanks Jason.

They do look better finished than my set, that I use on my Sieg SC2 lathe. Now can I justify the cost of replacing that functional but less better made set…decisions.

Ches

Ref: Warco – Lathe Tailstock Tap & Die Holder Set – 2MT
https://www.warco.co.uk/threading-tools/303404-lathe-tailstock-tap-die-holder-set.html

 

[Swarf MakerParticipant @swarfmaker85383]

Ah yes!  The WARCO set size 2MT with an integral 3MT arbor!  I know there are two different sets, but a lack of proof reading seems to be the way of things these days.  Witness BBC online news for the really annoying errors.

[Ches Green UKParticipant @chesgreenuk]

an integral 3MT arbor!

Good spot 🙂

Ches

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Well it seems the SMEE have the same thoughts as me. An engine as a beginners project! They are also using up-to-date CAD drawings which are to a larger size so less small fiddly bits and all from barstock. They have also opted to use a metric design, again something I have been saying will suit many new to home machining.

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

Jason,

A misunderstanding!

We seem to be agreeing, without realising it!

I was not suggesting making simple tools from castings, rather that by making tools, from barstock, any error might scrap a bit of mild steel, rather than an expensive casting from a kit for an engine or loco.

Then, with a bit of experience, and confidence, a beginner can start work on a simple engine, such as an oscillator, before progressing to somethging more sophisticated.

Howard

[JasonB]

On JasonB Said:

That did not take long, warco look to have them and also on amazon etc for the likes of Hopper who is not in the UK

Thanks Jason.

I have a homemade tailstock die holder so might use their idea of a keyless drill chuck and make a tap holder to fit it. More tools to make! 🙂

[Swarf Maker]

On Swarf Maker Said:

… but a lack of proof reading seems to be the way of things these days.  Witness BBC online news for the really annoying errors.

Ahem. Proofreading is one word.

Just sayin’. 🙂

 

[Hopper]

On Hopper Said:

On JasonB Said:

That did not take long, warco look to have them and also on amazon etc for the likes of Hopper who is not in the UK

Thanks Jason.

I have a homemade tailstock die holder so might use their idea of a keyless drill chuck and make a tap holder to fit it. More tools to make! 🙂

Having had a close(ish) look, whilst those chucks are keyless, I don’t thing they are keyless drill chucks, they have square cut-outs in the two jaws to fit the square ends of taps, much like a carpenters traditional brace.
Many, though not all, “engineering” keyless drill chucks loosen when turned anticlockwise, which causes a problem when reversing to break swarf, or withdraw the tap.
Some manufacturers make precision engineering reversible chucks, but they are often quite expensive.
The cheaper ones fitted to cordless drills might fit the bill OK
Another possibility is a ¼”or 3/8″ square drive, and a set of sockets specifically designed to take taps, wich need to be flat ended, rather than pointed, so the inbuilt magnets grab OK.

Bill

[Neil LickfoldParticipant @neillickfold44316]

Buying free cutting steels and free cutting Aluminium like the 2011 free cutting aluminium is a good way to start.

Getting some cutting oils will also help and a paper towels to keep any coolant and fine chips out of the bed is also a good thing. Lubricate the lathe often, will make it last a lifetime.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Yes the ones that come with the tailstock holder are two jaw with a V in the jaw so the tap can’t spin. May be possible to butcher a cheap T handle type tap wrench. Or use an ER and fit it with tapping collets which have a square hole in the end.

I’ve not found that a keyless chuck undoes itself when powering a tap back out. Old vodeo from when it was queried before. M10 x 1.5 through 16mm black bar. Just one of ARC’s chucks with a spiral flute so no need to break swarf.

Hopper I tried M8 x 1.25 yesterday, straight flute OK with a 10mm deep x 6.7mm through hole in steel. I just about managed the same thread on 8mm nominal bar but would not want to do it often. That was without opening up the split die or reducing the bar’s diameter. Luckily I seldom need much above M5 in metric coarse but the 1.0mm and 0.75mm pitch metric sizes do get used in larger diameters.

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

I think the point about making small workshop tools as beginners projects is not about the learning as much as producing something that is immediately useful to the beginners workshop which generally lacks all the bits and pieces that are needed and which generally accumulate after a few years. Jason is correct in as far as you can learn just as well what ever you are making but I suspect anyone setting out to build an engine  will invariably wind up side tracking to make tooling to complete the engine even if it’s just hold down clamps. It’s also true that the more useful tooling you have the easier and faster it is to complete projects. The downside is that it is also easy to get totally sidetracked into making tooling, something I am guilty of on a fairly big way. Ideally you find a mix which suits you and both enhances your workshop and your skills whilst also not stopping you from actually producing something other than a better equipped workshop.

I will end with one comment regarding models. If you decide to say build a loco go for the one you want however ambitious and not a ‘beginners loco’ that you don’t.

regards Martin

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