James Carson Models

[SamsarandaParticipant @samsaranda]

I am researching for a friend who has inherited a number of steam models from his Grandfather, his grandfather worked for a model making and engineering firm called James Carson they were based in Cricklewood and grandfather was a foreman there. He left the company in 1913 and moved to Coventry and then worked for Armstrong Siddeley, he was quite an accomplished engineer and spent the rest of his working life in the Coventry area, about this time it is understood that James Carson were taken over by Basset Lowke who were created in 1899 in Northampton, it is unclear what happened to the models in James Carson’s catalogue, did Basset Lowke keep them in their portfolio, does anyone have knowledge of any of their products after this period, my colleague would be interested to know.

The engines that I have photos of were received as basket cases and my colleague put them together using the pictures in their catalogue as a guide, the major parts are there but some of the fasteners are missing, these are mainly 1/8 and 7/64 Whitworth. The engines are a single cylinder marine, a double cylinder compound marine and a hefty three cylinder marine, for which I have no photos, the engineering of them is as you would expect first class from the pre First World War era.

The single cylinder marine engine has the supporting structure fabricated from aluminium which has a weld incorporated in it, I would have thought that was pretty unusual for the early 20th century.

We would be interested in any comments that anyone can make concerning James Carson’s products and also if anyone has any of their models. Apologies for the quality of the photos , I am not very accomplished in photography .

I have a photocopied James Carson catalogue, the quality is not good but it is readable on most pages. Dave W

[SamsarandaParticipant @samsaranda]

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

You have presumably found this page already, but I thought it worth linking for general info.

**LINK**

https://www.scunthorpesme.com/the-great-bear/story/

MichaelG.

[SamsarandaParticipant @samsaranda]

Michael

Many thanks for your reply to the James Carson appeal, I wasn’t aware of the link that you sent me and my colleague will no doubt be very pleased to read it, there is every possibility that as his Grandfather was foreman at James Carson , who were engaged to build the Great Bear for Bassett Lowke, that he had a hand in its construction. Dave W

[Andy BoothmanParticipant @andyboothman66804]

Via another forum, I have been in contact with the owner of these models and provided the scan of the catalogue mentioned above.

That B-L took over Carson's business is not really true. Carson voluntarily put the business into administration and B-L apparently purchased some of the assets; how this was effected I have not so far been able to find out. I have found no evidence that B-L took on any of Carson's staff or machinery (the latter being unlikely as Carson quickly returned to his previous trade in machine tools after the demise of his model-making firm).

Carson used aluminium castings in his locos an carriages(in gauges 1, 2 & 3), so its use in his stationary engines is not surprising. How he came to do so – perhaps through his former links with the cycle and motorcycle trade? I would welcome comments from members here who are familiar with cycles and motorcycles c.1910-12 to know how much aluminium was in use of them.

Unlike the loco designs, most of the stationary engine designs in the BL- 1934 catalogue are from Stuart – so if B-L did take on the Carson designs, they didn't last very long.

Armstrong Siddeley was not formed until 1919, so it would have been to Siddeley Deasy that Carson's foreman went – which was one of Carson's former customers before he started the model business.

Andy

[egaParticipant @ega]

Posted by Andy Boothman on 10/08/2023 21:53:26:…

Carson used aluminium castings in his locos an carriages(in gauges 1, 2 & 3), so its use in his stationary engines is not surprising. How he came to do so – perhaps through his former links with the cycle and motorcycle trade? I would welcome comments from members here who are familiar with cycles and motorcycles c.1910-12 to know how much aluminium was in use of them.

…

In his classic work Bicycles and Tricycles (1896) Archibald Sharp says:

"It remains to be seen whether a strong alloy, containing a large percentage of aluminium, and therefore light, can be discovered. Such an alloy may possibly be of value in cycle making."

However, by way of an exception:

" The hubs of Sharp's tangent wheel may, with advantage, be made of aluminium, since the pull of the spokes has not to be transmitted by flanges."

In 1927 Buckminster Fuller was considering the use of aluminium for housing and was told by the Aluminum Corporation of America that "we don't use aluminum in buildings. It is used only in percolators, pots, ashtrays and souvenirs."

Five years later the first heat treated aluminium alloys became available.

[Andy BoothmanParticipant @andyboothman66804]

Thanks, ega.

You've prompted yet another 'rabbit hole' to go down for my researches into James Carson, around his use of ali. Another similar one is the materials he used for his flash steam boilers, one of which has recently been recommissioned and found to be 100% steam tight and safe after more than 100 years since it was made!

On the people side, the foreman, mentioned above is the first employee (other than James Crebbin) whose name is now known for sure. I have identified 2 others from the 1911 census who were possible employees.

Reginald Monk, occupation 'Model Engineers apprentice'. He was 19 and was living with his family about 2.5 miles from Carson's works. All of the family were born in Birmingham, from where Carson had relocated his business in 1910. His father, Walter, was a gun fitter.

John Purdy, occupation 'Model Steam Engine Maker (Worker)'. He was 24, local to Hampstead, was recently married and lived about 1.5 miles from Carson's premises.

It would be great to find a relative of these gentlemen to confirm if they were Carson employees.

Andy

[Bob WorsleyParticipant @bobworsley31976]

Assuming it is the same firm but LBSC had lots of good words to describe the Carson steam engines. I only have odd copies from 1920's and 30's but the Carson engines come up quite frequently.

[SamsarandaParticipant @samsaranda]

Andy, Ega and Bob, many thanks for your responses about James Carson, it is all helping to build a picture.

Dave W

[Andy BoothmanParticipant @andyboothman66804]

Bob,

Yes, it is the same firm, and yes LBSC did write several articles with good things to say about Carson's models through into the 40's & 50's. The catalogue scan mentioned above is of the copy owned by LBSC and has several of his notes in it. Some of Jim Crebbin's articles over a similar period also give us some insightful snippets of information. This was all relating to the locomotive models.

Other than ME reports of Carsons lists / catalogues in the period 1905-1912 mentioning stationary engines, I'm yet to see any other mention of them (although I have not yet been through all of the ME articles that mention Carson beyond the 1920s).

Back to aluminium castings – there was an foundry established very close to Carson's Birmingham premises – **LINK** – so there was local expertise in its use.

[David Viewing 1Participant @davidviewing1]

I’m sorry to come late to this topic having only just found it.

I own several Carson model locos and consider them by far the best of the pre-WW1 era.

Best known are the ‘Experiment’ 4-6-0’s, produced in Gauges 1,2 and 3 with many surviving. The gauge 1 version was made with Smithies boiler and also in the esoteric flash steam version. Here’s a picture of my flash steam example, still running in the 21st century:

This loco is unrestored and wears it’s original paint on the cast aluminium upperworks and runs on the original flash tube though sadly the boiler has been stripped of asbestos and no longer “glows red” through the firedoor as described by Jim Crebbin.

The Gauge 3 version is the more populous and it seems many of these were supplied in kit form by Bassett Lowke after the (Great) war because unfinished examples turn up from time to time.

To me the best of the Carsons were in Gauge 2 and here’s my ‘Precursor’ which is to me the best of the bunch. This one had been heavily damaged and had to be painted although traces of the original paintwork survive under the modern vinyl wrap on cab and tender sides. Here it is, wearing a fictional number and the name ‘Carson’ in honour of it’s creator:

It can be seen seen running this March with a rake of heavy wooden Gauge 2 coaches built to Greenly’s design:

David

 

[Charles LamontParticipant @charleslamont71117]

On the early use of aluminium, I once spent quite some time working on a 1902 veteran car which had aluminium crankcase and gearbox castings.

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