Jaguar [oh dear]

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

Hydrogen leak sounds very scary, but it is so much lighter than air that it dissipate very quickly, unlike say propane which is heavier than air and so can pool in the bottom of enclosed spaces. Narrow boats are prone to this.

The hydrogen explosions at Fukushima could have been avoided by having roof vents that fell open on loss of power. Not difficult,just needs a proper risk assessment.

[derek hall 1]

On derek hall 1 Said:

The very fact that we are still discussing the Jag advert will suggest that the advertising and marketing dept that made this ad have done a good job.

“No such thing as bad publicity”

Exactly so, but a point easily missed by folk who don’t understand advertising or why it’s vital to make a splash.  The more potential customers who know about a product, the more will be bought.  Attributes techies think important are much less relevant in a sales context.  It’s a different game, and engineers  rarely “get-it”; we don’t understand people!

Btw, I thought the marketing dept where I used to work, were a load of idiots and knew nothing about our product, and for example, spent weeks deciding on the “correct” shade of blue. I suppose it was important – to them. The product however, despite their marketing spin, was rubbish!

Yup, and it’s not necessary to understand a product to market it.  The gadget isn’t important, they’re all the same in the dark!  Many examples of over-priced and technically inferior products succeeding over less well marketed items.   Betamax was technically superior to VHS, and the world bought VHS.   What matters is identifying what appeals to potential purchasers and then presenting it in an attention grabbing way.  Colour matters, not in isolation, but ads need to stand-out in a crowd of other ads.

Like as not a Jaguar advert that satisfied Model Engineers would leave everyone else stone cold: we are not a sales target!  Best thing an engineer can do in a sales/marketing meeting is leave!  Most of the time marketing is too difficult for  professionals too.  Failed campaigns by the hundred.  Requires talent, and it’s easy to misjudge what others will tune into.

Nigel’s DERA example is a good one of a marketing problem.  The employer was trying to send the message “everything you know about this organisation is going to change, put your thinking head on”.   Nigel heard “they’re changing the name and that’s stupid”.

Much more was going on, the plan being available to anyone who chose to dig into the very boring information:

• Stage 1, government, looking at a MoD system set-up before and during WW2 to research military technologies, realised that, in peacetime, it was costing the taxpayer a bomb.  And the system was flawed in that government took most of the technical risk whilst industry enjoyed cosy safe cost-plus contracts.
• Stage 2, the cure!  MoD started a migration in which most of it’s internal research groups were given Agency status, ‘DERA’.   Not much change for workforce yet, who mostly carried on under existing Terms and Conditions.  Bigger impact on senior management and accounting – DERA was funded differently.  In effect DERA became a supplier, bidding for new work along with industry, instead of it being allocated internally.  DERA’s need to trade competitively highlighted the need for major staff and facility changes, most of which were queued for the next step.
• Stage 3, DERA was ‘sold’ as a going concern to the private sector, with staff transferred under TUPE terms, “expect redundancies, redeployment, and changed ways of working.”  Post transfer, more major change in the pipeline was signalled by changing the name to Qinetiq, a loud hint that the game was afoot.  Moving to Qinetiq created a shower of winners and losers.  Some found their talents worked better under private enterprise and a significant minority suffered severe culture shock.   In the middle, quite a few victims over succeeding years: chaps discovering they still had a job but had to move home and/or adopt new methods.  Many discovered that Qinetiq chose not to take a commercial risk on what they did, and shut down, not because their job was useless, but because Qinetiq didn’t want to make long term investments that might not pay off.

It’s a rough-tough old world and nothing is simple!

Dave

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

Having said that, preventing hydrogen leaks is a lot more difficult than say methane as the molecules are so much smaller.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

JCB seem to be able to power their machines with it OK. Extream E racecars are going over to Hydrogen next season and I expect they will be OK. The electric ones have been racing with electricity from a portable hydrogen cell for several years. Even a couple of race trucks on the Dakar had hydrogen power. All quite testing enviroments.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Oh Dear

https://apple.news/Axf_TG_YsSTmO1Yqil4iE2A

or

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/czen5y97yjzo

MichaelG.

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

Working on the future of Hydrogen as part of the day job. IMHO* the biggest issue is finding a “green” and economical source for the stuff. Electrolysis using excess energy from nuclear is one option but nuclear has it’s challenges. Storage and distribution will follow. Most of the country ran on a 50% Hydrogen / Carbon monoxide for decades (town gas).

Robert.
*This is my personal opinion and may not reflect my employers views or position an should not be attributed to them.

[Martin of WickParticipant @martinofwick]

the biggest issue is finding a “green” and economical source for the stuff. 

Well yes and no. In the context of conjunctive use of generating resources, generation cost may not be so much of a problem. Consider that for a given reliable or mode energy yield (in MWh output for a renewable energy source), the maximum instantaneous output may need to be significantly more than that reliable yield (for solar/wind/wave power). So what do you in periods of surplus generation – electrolysis would allow the  surplus to be stored as hydrogen, in theory increasing the beneficial output of the total system and reducing unit output costs (I did say in theory….).

I imagine it will always be more economical to run nuclear as a baseload, as it is today, but maybe micro nuclear may change the economics (hmm… maybee!). Remember the days when electricity was too cheap to meter, no? neither do I!

[Mark RandParticipant @markrand96270]

Can you imagine all the NIMBYs complaining about the need to (re)build ‘eye sore’ gas holders for the hydrogen in their towns? 😀

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

Of course, NIMBY can refer to two sets of people.

Those whose localities would be spoilt by the intended development.

Those, the speculators and remote planners, intending the developments far from their own homes.

[Martin of Wick]

On Martin of Wick Said:

the biggest issue is finding a “green” and economical source for the stuff. 

Well yes and no. …

Exactly what Martin says.

Think big, imagine a situation in which a large number of wind-farms are deployed to supply as much electricity as possible during peak times.   What happens to green output off-peak when nobody wants electricity for ordinary purposes?     Answer, use the off-peak electricity to electrolyse water, creating large quantities of cheap Hydrogen and Oxygen.   Oxygen is easy – either dump it into the atmosphere or liquidise it – the technology is well known.    Hydrogen is trickier because it can’t be liquidised, but it can be compressed, absorbed in solution or converted to Ammonia, and transporting Ammonia is bog standard technology.   At the other end, converting Ammonia back into Hydrogen generates a lot of heat, and after that the Hydrogen  is available too, either to generate electricity by burning it in a turbine, or in a fuel cell, or by recreating something like Town Gas.   Robert mentioned Coal Gas being a 50/50 mix of Hydrogen and Carbon Monoxide; I guess the modern version would be about 50/50 Hydrogen and Methane.   Not completely green, but providing the same energy with at least 50% less CO2.

If the plant electrolyses sea-water, a long list of other elements can extracted as by-products:  Bromine, Fluorine, Lithium, Magnesium, Calcium, Potassium,  Phosphorous, and Argon.   With the exception of Magnesium, which is already extracted from sea-water, it’s too expensive to generate the electricity by burning fossils.   But electricity becomes affordable when wind-farms or solar are running off-peak.  Solar might not be practical on a gigantic scale in the UK,  but imagine many square kilometres of panels deployed along the North African coast, and the result arriving here by ship or pipeline.   If that seems impossible, remember where oil comes from, and what’s needed to get it here and put petrol in your tank!  The scale is much the same.

It’s all do-able.   Trouble is getting it done requires money, there are plenty of vested interests, and perhaps the technology is too difficult for fossil burners to understand.  On the other hand plenty believe there’s no problem with fossil fuels, and look! ; they’re so so cheap, convenient and easy at the moment.  And even if we Boomers are wrong about doing nothing we won’t have to pick up the bill cos we’ll all be dead before the poo really hits the fan!

Dave

 

 

 

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

Dave said “Hydrogen is trickier because it can’t be liquidised,….”

Not true. It’s expensive to turn to liquid and it can’t be kept liquid under pressure. This means that you have constant boil-off of gas. It has issues but is not unmanageable.

Robert.

[Michael CallaghanParticipant @michaelcallaghan68621]

EV car sales are tanking. Dealers are pre registering them so they don’t get hammered by the extra fines for not meeting government targets. My next door neighbour purchased an EV as he is very green. Even he admitted it was a big mistake. EV,s are just a plain silly idea from start to finish.

[Robert Atkinson 2]

On Robert Atkinson 2 Said:

Dave said “Hydrogen is trickier because it can’t be liquidised,….”

Not true. It’s expensive to turn to liquid and it can’t be kept liquid under pressure. This means that you have constant boil-off of gas. It has issues but is not unmanageable.

Robert.

Yeah, got that wrong, poor old bone-head confused Hydrogen with Helium!

Though I suggested Ammonia (NH₃, boiling point -33.5°C) as a good way of transporting bulk Hydrogen, it’s not without problems!  Although it cleans itself up quickly, Ammonia is nasty poisonous stuff in concentrated form.    Whilst it’s already manufactured and moved in large quantities and accidents are rare, the thought of 100,000 tons escaping from a shipwrecked tanker gets my worry beads going.   Liquid Hydrogen is a better option.

Dave

 

[mgnbukParticipant @mgnbuk]

Just use ammonia directly as fuel  ? – ammonia fueled car developed

Nigel B.

[Michael Callaghan]

On Michael Callaghan Said:

… Even he admitted it was a big mistake. EV,s are just a plain silly idea from start to finish.

Hope not Michael!  If you’re correct, personal motoring as we know it is doomed.

Here’s a couple of alternative facts, both wrong:

• The world has an unlimited supply of oil that will last forever and always be cheap.
• Burning fossil fuels isn’t causing climate change, and who cares –  being warmer is harmless.

As both ‘facts’ are incorrect, it follows that cars powered by Internal Combustion are in deep trouble. May not obvious yet but the clock is ticking.  About 30 years before oil prices skyrocket, maybe 15 .   As EVs are the only alternative at the moment, dismissing them as silly is unwise!   Might be better to tackle why EVs aren’t for everyone.  One reason is failure to deliver the necessary infrastructure, too much dithering.

Dave

 

[Nigel Graham 2]

On Nigel Graham 2 Said:

Of course, NIMBY can refer to two sets of people.

Those whose localities would be spoilt by the intended development.

Those, the speculators and remote planners, intending the developments far from their own homes.

Damm right, there is nothing wrong about being a NIMBY!!

Tony

[bernard towersParticipant @bernardtowers37738]

Have the Aussies come up with the next step!!!

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

I’m not sure exactly what we should read into this, but it’s surely a ‘sign’ of something !!

I heard a radio advertisement whilst I was out today, and this is one of many web adverts making the offer:

https://www.glynhopkin.com/mg/offers/mg-savings/

MichaelG.

[VicParticipant @vic]

I don’t think anyone needs to worry about that Jaguars concept. I saw a video a while back explaining why some of these concept cars can’t actually be built for one reason or another. Unless that Jaguar is really massive it’s not tall enough for an adult? and the ground clearance would make it unsuitable for many roads.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Vic

From this page:

https://media.jaguar.com/news/2024/12/jaguar-unveils-type-00-unmistakable-unexpected-dramatic

… the alloy wheels are 23”

If we had the enthusiasm, you or I could scale the images

[ and Jason could probably build a model before Christmas ]

MichaelG.

[Andy StopfordParticipant @andystopford50521]

Well, I think it’s a pretty disappointing effort from Jaguar; these are what a concept car should look like:

https://www.oobject.com/category/top-12-harley-earl-designs/

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Amen to that, Andy

MichaelG.

.

P.S. __ have you read Jaguar’s tosh about the the three totems [or whatever they call them] ??

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

I have a vague ‘folk memory’ that EVs were to be the saviours of the planet

… How has that concept it turned to this ?

MichaelG.

[Nick WheelerParticipant @nickwheeler]

So Jaguar was trolling everyone with the recent advert.

The fancy new direction turns out to be a boring rehash of somebody else’s 20 year-old concept(Saab Aero-X) crashed through venetian blinds and painted pink.

Tata should put Jag out of its misery just like any humane owner of a geriatric moggy that’s clearly had a stroke.

[dc1Participant @dc1]

This is a Jaguar. I drove an XJ6 for many years. Metallic Red, 3.6 litre, sports wheels.

24 miles to the gallon. Registration I think was P.

However, believe it or not, I have seen one of these painted pink. It looked absolutely awful.

 

Photo borrowed from Ebay.

You can get a car like this for under £1,000 very easily. My one cost £1,900 probably about 2007.

 

[Author]

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