J & S surface grinder – refurbishment

[Mark RandParticipant @markrand96270]

I had the same problem and had to do a fair bit of research before finding a solution.

The advantage of the silicone compound compared with normal greases is that there's no soap and it's completely insoluble in oils and coolants. It also sticks like snot on a blanket (technical term).

[Dave SParticipant @daves59043]

Shouldn’t need to spin a big wheel. That photo is a used 180mm wheel – It measures about 170mm diameter and the wheel head wasn’t at the bottom of its travel

removing wheel guards is a thing to only be done after careful consideration IMO

Dave

[Mark RandParticipant @markrand96270]

It wasn't the wheel guard I meant to be removed, it was the rear splash guard as J&S called it. The back of the guard that goes around the table.

[Dave SParticipant @daves59043]

Ah. Good clarification

Mine came without table guards, so I cobbled together something that mostly contains the mess.

Did read like put a big wheel on it, take of the guard if it won’t fit…

Dave

[David George 1Participant @davidgeorge1]

Whilst you are cleaning the top of the saddle I would recommend lifting the bed off as well to check the oil drains and ways as they get blocked by the crud and dust around the bed. It is easy to lift off with the help of a friend after removing the cylinder rod blocks from under the bed at each end but make sure you have a tressel or table to put the bed on first. The oil from the lubrication and any leaks drain down here and if not cleaned from time to time oil will run out the front cover round the handwheel. You can run the hydraulics with the table off to see if the cylinder seals and lubrication are ok.

David

[Chris CrewParticipant @chriscrew66644]

Gerry, I have just thought that it might be worth calling the company that took over the J&S name and asking if they still provide a gasket kit for your machine although it would be easy enough to make your own, I suppose. I remember buying a gasket kit from the real J&S at Narborough Road in Leicester and it was surprisingly cheap for a J&S product. They may just still be available given the number of these machines that abound. Other than that Jubilee machine tools (Pope's) in Derby may be able to help as they specialise in refurbishing these machines, or at least they used to. You could get a new wheel-head drive belt from there too.

[David George 1Participant @davidgeorge1]

You can also ask Andmar Machinery Services Ltd, Nuneton. They are also good on spares and helpful if you get stuck.

David

[gerry maddenParticipant @gerrymadden53711]

I haven't checked my wheelhead excursion yet but will do that later this week end and let you know. But by the sound of it I should be ok.

In the meantime I'm about to paint the valve cover.

Does any one know what these 7 1/4" holes would have been for ? Some are tapped and the alignment isn't that good..

Clearly something has been fitted at some time but not sure its important to me and at the moment all they do is let the muck in so I plan to plug them.

[David George 1Participant @davidgeorge1]

Gerry the holes in the table plate are probably for a jig to hold a dial indicator to set up job parallel to bed travel etc.

David

[gerry maddenParticipant @gerrymadden53711]

Evening all,

The refurbishment makes steady and very satisfying progress but had a minor hitch last night. I'm trying to remove the valve block cover which is the part shown in the pic below.

I have removed the 2 nuts designated 'H' plus two smaller cap screws located at the bottom left and bottom right corners of the cover. I thought that would be it, but there seems to be something else holding it pretty tightly near the bottom edge. I think this because I can lever the upper edge of the cover against the valve block and it will deflect off its mounting face by a mm or so. If I release the force the joint closes tightly. If it was just a sticking gasket I think that this would have broken the joint so there must be something else. The underside of the cover looks like this….

I have run my fingers up behind the cover but can't feel any screws holding the cover on from the other side…. but it is a bit gruesome back there so its possible I have missed something.

Just wondering if any one on here has done this job before and knows the secret to removing this part ?

One bit of good news is the company I bought the machine from contacted me out of the blue and said they had found the original users manual and a copy of the sales brochure and would I like it ?! Its great now to have a manual that fits exactly with ones machine and a few puzzlements I was left with after reading the one available on the web are all sorted now.

Gerry

[Dave SParticipant @daves59043]

It’s been a while, but I think mine was held on by 4 bolts and and a gasket, but maybe there was a couple of hidden nuts up in the back.
If your not in a hurry I can go look tomorrow.
I did have all the cross feed handle bits out of the way, but it looks like you have done that.

[gerry maddenParticipant @gerrymadden53711]

Dave, thank you for the offer. No rush, at you convenience.

G.

[Chris CrewParticipant @chriscrew66644]

Gerry, I have done this job before but it's so long ago now that I cannot remember exactly what is holding the front valve gear cover on apart from the screws you have already mentioned. Perhaps there are a couple of dowel pins to locate it accurately although nothing is shown there in my parts manual for the machine. There is a dowel which appears to be through the top of the cover but you have probably already found this. You could possibly, and very carefully, insert a small screwdriver blade in the gap you can open up and use it as a wedge to part the castings. I don't know exactly, and the risk would be all yours, but that is the sort of thing I would be looking at unless something more obvious can be detected. Other than that, is that bush on the cross-feed screw not fixed to the valve gear cover in any way? Or, does the casting just slip over it? Again, no fixing is shown in the parts diagram.

[gerry maddenParticipant @gerrymadden53711]

Chris, ….mmmm… you may be right. Perhaps it is just a couple of dowel pins on the bottom edge….They might just need a more direct pull to get the cover off them.

G

[Dave SParticipant @daves59043]

I’ve not made it out there yet, shopping hiccup means I’m at rugby training with no2 daughter.
had a poke about for photos on my phone – often take them to aid my reassembly of things.
This is the only one I have with the cover off:

I think there was something non obvious, but it’s 2 years ago… The photo does show how much of the mechanism I removed though, which may help?

With luck I’ll get back in time to have a look, will certainly try to this week.

Dave

[Dave SParticipant @daves59043]

Just checked. There is an extra bolt in the middle at the bottom.

You can see it in this pic:

It’s accessible if you wind the cross feed all the way out.

Hope this helps.

Dave

[gerry maddenParticipant @gerrymadden53711]

It does Dave, that's excellent. Thank you for your efforts. I had another 'feel' tonight but nothing was obvious in the dark so I just need to look harder now that I know its there somewhere.

G.

[Dave SParticipant @daves59043]

I seem to remember thinking along the lines of that’s a really long edge to get a good seal on, bet there’s a bolt there somewhere… Of course when the cross feed is in pieces it’s a pita to wind it out, but unless you do it’s even more impossible to get to.

Dave

[gerry maddenParticipant @gerrymadden53711]

Dave found and removed that 5th nut today! …Now I wonder how I could have missed it ! The valve cover is off along with bits of its gasket. That should be an easy one to make when the time comes.

Next job will be the spindle the after that the table. I was thinking I could lift the table using an engine crane attached to blocks in the 'T' slots. Might be a little tidier than stops. What to you think ? Anything I've missed ?

Gerry

[Dave SParticipant @daves59043]

I lifted mine with a block and tackle attached to the t slots, then strapped it out of the way.

a picture in this thread: **LINK**

Dont forget to release the ram ends from the table. I think they sit in a u slot, so just releasing the nuts allows the table to lift.

Dave

[gerry maddenParticipant @gerrymadden53711]

For those of you who are interested in the insides of the J&S 540 wheel-head spindle, then here they are after a bit of a clean-up.

50 year old grease abounded, but I think at some point the two covers had been removed and some fresh had been stuffed in. Even that looked and felt like it was at least 20 years old though! All the bearing seatings were good with no sign of creep or fretting damage. I was surprised to find the original Ransome and Marles bearings still in it. I stripped these too and was even more surprised to find them in a corrosion-free condition, especially as this unit doesn't have seals, only labyrinths.

The pulley end bearing was in almost perfect condition with just a few random metal chip indents in the raceways. There was however just a trace of wear on the raceways of the wheel-end bearing from dust ingress. However both definitely good enough to go back in for further duty and I'm quite sure they'll see me out.

Only one mistake so far – I forgot to measure the wheel-end spindle runout before I commenced the dismantling so now I don't have a target to meet or even exceed on the rebuild. Might need a little trial-and-error with ring positioning but good fun for a wet Saturday afternoon.

Just a word of caution for anyone doing the same exercise. When you pull out the free-half of the spring box arrangement from the casting, put your hand over the housing and collect the 12 springs before you do anything else. I didn't and the inevitable happened. I found 10 quick quickly, but the other two had bounced some distance and landed in one of the wife flower pots where they blended in nicely with the soil.

Gerry

[gerry maddenParticipant @gerrymadden53711]

I now have my table off and its being prepared for blasting and repaint. The ways look good, clear scapings cover the full surfaces and there is no damage or casting defects present. For the record the table weighs 55Kg.

I'm now cleaning and expecting the ram. Its all fine (apart from a obvious covered-up manufacturing error). Although the machine didn't have excessive leakage previously, I'm thinking that now its all in bits I may as well fit new seals. They are basically just simple bushes pressed into brass sleeves. as you can see below.

I would rather make something myself than buy new parts which cost around £50, but not sure about the material. I 'looks' like Tufnol, i.e. cloth impregnated, but its a little compliant, so its a kind of cloth impregnated with a hard rubber, as opposed to a phenolic. Would anyone know confidently what this material is or likely to be ?

Another puzzle is this. The spare parts manual shows gaskets between the central circular section tube and the two outer square section tubes.

The were no gaskets in mine, just spigots, and not particularly good fitting ones at that ! Could this be another build mistake perhaps ? Does anyone else have these gaskets here, and if so, are they fitted between the axial or radial surfaces of the spigots ?

Since there is no means of controlled axial clamping between these 3 ram cylinder parts its difficult to see how axial gaskets could ever be successful in this situation but what do I know

Gerry

[gerry maddenParticipant @gerrymadden53711]

Forget the question about the material for the seals. Further investigation shows that the ram seals are in fact proper 2-part hydraulic components which look like this:-

For the record the outer part has dimensions 9.5x 22.2 x 8.6 and back-up inner part 10 x 21.8 x 6.5. These should correspond to some imperial measurements of course and hopefully I should be able to find a cheap source somewhere on the net.

Gerry

[Mark RandParticipant @markrand96270]

I don't think that you'll find a cheap source of Walker Twinset seals, probably better to just bite the bullet and pay the money.

It's a shame that Hardinge/kellenberger have trashed the J&S organisation.

Edited By Mark Rand on 07/03/2022 19:33:11

[Dave SParticipant @daves59043]

Mine had gaskets as I remember having to find the gasket paper to make new ones.

Ill see if I have any photos for where they go – IIRC I didn’t pay attention, and made them for the wrong face initially…

Dave

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