Issue 4444

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Posted by Cyril Bonnett

My real argument is that not many have the means to work on these machines or the tools to lift or move them during construction let alone afford them.My real argument is that not many have the means to work on these machines or the tools to lift or move them during construction let alone afford them.

I suspect that there are not many ‘model’ engineers that have the ability or equipment to construct these models given the size, weight and costs involved. Out sourcing the work at huge cost is as I said chequebook engineering.

I can't speak for large scale locos as they are not my thing but as I said 90% of people building road steam do have the means to make and transport these machines so not exactly "not many"

Lets take machines, you can buy an imported or secondhand 12" swing lathe and decent capacity mill for the same price as a little Myford lathe so I can't see an issue there.

Yes the materials will cost more but not always, you raised a point about lazer cut parts, having spoken with a few builders of 6" engines it actually can be cheaper to by items lazer cut than buying the raw material from a steel stockholder. That is going direct to a lazer cutters not buying through the ME trade.

Also look at the advice that is generally given to anyone who says they want to build a traction engine "anything smaller than 3" is no good on a rally field, preferably 4" plus especially if you want to go on the road runs.

There are also a lot of people who want to get the engine built quickly and get out on the rally field so will buy in parts of sub out work beyond their capacity. Its a fact that there is disposable income out there and a good proportion of these builders are say late 40s to 50s so not being able to spend their retirement in the shed only have limited time to build the engines so the odd shortcut helps and they don't have to worry about eaking out their pension.

Given these current trends I don't see much chance of us getting another new small TE (2" or under) published in the mag any time soon as it would not make much commercial sense for a supplier to hold castings that are not in demand. One only has to look at what new TEs have come onto the market in say the last 10 years – Little Samson 3", 4" and 6" versions, 3" Wallis, 6" Gold Medal Tractor and possibly a 6" Garret. Though obviously there is nothing to stop anyone using these designs and reducing them to 2" or 1 1/2", most could be fabricated and just the odd pattern to get a few pieces cast.

J

Edited By JasonB on 01/07/2013 16:50:32

[BaldricParticipant @baldric]

Personally I have a pile of magazines to read going back several months so I am commenting on what is was in the magazines at the begining of the year.
I do like a wide mixture of subjects despite only building steam items or tools to build said items, the other articles can and do prompt interest and alternative methods of working. I am building a 3" steam wagon so for me road steam articles, of any scale, are interesting as I get to see how other people have done things. I don't actually think that there are that many steam road articles. I also work on full size steam railway and find that machining tecniques from ME can apply in larger scales so occaional articles on full size practice may be good as well. I am not to keen on the reprints of old articles as I am not sure if some of the methods are still deemed safe, in particular with respect to boilers, if the article had these items highlighted they would be better in my view.
I do buy ME and MEW, I am not sure where some articles should be, articles about machines could be in either as could tecniques, ideally I would only buy 1 and it would have both but I guess that is not what is deemed best.

Baldric

[Diane CarneyModerator @dianecarney30678]

Just to reiterate briefly what Jason has said – larger scale is without a doubt the 'growing' sector of the hobby. It is also where the younger people are – and how often do we hear that we have to attract the younger folk? I would argue that there is room in M.E. for 'cheque book engineering' although that is a rather derogatory expression. Why would we exclude a model maker who has created a master piece of engineering – to scale – just becasue he/she had to outsource the machining of the very biggest parts? There could be so many interesting techniques, solutions to problems and ways of tackling an item that might be as useful to inch scale builders as 9 inch scale builders.

I would also say that as far as this magazine is concerned it will always cover as many disciplines as people are prepared to write about. Steam engines, tooling, clocks, aero engines, T/Es, gearboxes, munitions, musical instruments, cartwheels. The list is actually endless. The majority of writers, however, are writing about a smaller range of subjects – or so it would seem at the moment.
If there is a subject you would ike to read about but can't/ dont wish to write about, then please try to encourage those who can/will write to do so.

If I were a model engineer I would make a model of a letterpress printing machine. Has anyone ever done that?

Diane

[Gone AwayParticipant @goneaway]

Posted by JasonB on 01/07/2013 16:50:00:

Lets take machines, you can buy an imported or secondhand 12" swing lathe and decent capacity mill for the same price as a little Myford lathe so I can't see an issue there.

If basic machine cost were the only consideration I don't think there would be an problem in that case. But cost is only one issue and not, perhaps the most significant. The logistics of installing a 12" lathe in the workshop are a whole different ball game from a Myford-7 even for those with an outdoor, accessible workshop.

In my case, my workshop is in my basement and I had enough trouble, and needed a fair bit of (amateur) help, getting my ML7 down. I wouldn't attempt it with anything as large as a 12" …… even assuming it's feasible (probably not) and even with professional – and probably expensive – help).

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Oh I don't know, the traction engine boys are quite resorceful. How else would you get a 54" dia final drive gear into the dining room to work on it

[Diane CarneyModerator @dianecarney30678]

Brilliant!!!

[ScottParticipant @scott]

Single person presumably??

As for the magazine I think Diane is doing rather a good job of trying to create a balanced publication. Time moves on, as do techniques and people's interests. Locos aren't my thing either but I usually read the articles in case I can learn something. Just my tuppence worth.

[Anonymous]

Posted by Cyril Bonnett on 01/07/2013 12:59:41:

But I still think that machines/vehicles that can weigh over a ton or more and run on public roads are just smaller replicas of the original item, they are not models in true sense that Model Engineer has promoted over the last century.

Here's a definition from my dictionary:

model: a representation, usually on a smaller scale, of a device, structure etc.

Note that the definition doesn't even say always on a smaller scale. So what, in the true sense, is a model, quarter scale, tenth scale or less? And presumably clocks shouldn't be in Model Engineer, as they are inevitably full size?

I suspect that those who denigrate others for 'cheque book engineering' still use laser or water cut parts, don't make their own pressure gauges or injectors, and buy standard nuts and bolts.

Regards,

Andrew

[Another JohnSParticipant @anotherjohns]

Posted by Diane Carney on 01/07/2013 17:51:41:

Just to reiterate briefly what Jason has said – larger scale is without a doubt the 'growing' sector of the hobby. It is also where the younger people are – and how often do we hear that we have to attract the younger folk? ….

Diane; I would not be too sure about larger scale being the growing sector of the hobby.

Two cases in point

– elevated tracks (3-1/2, 4-3/4) is where the action seems to be at some clubs over in the north-eastern USA, eastern Canada, at least. Montreal, when I was there, had locomotives on their elevated, and the ground level is in weeds; (*)

– talked to two local 7-1/4 builder-club members today who said their next locomotive would be (respectively) 3-1/2 and gauge 1. That is a not-insignificant slice of our local club builders.

The pendulum swings both ways….

Another JohnS, firmly believing that small can be beautiful, too.

Note: (*) I'm sure that there are people using the ground level track, but at my last rainy visit there a few days ago, 8 locomotives ready for steaming on the elevated, 0 on the ground; an interesting observation, if not statistically relevant. One of the young kids was well on his way on a 3-1/2" gauge locomotive, too.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

John I did say "I could not speak for locos", Diane's comment is about road steam as was mine.

Edited By JasonB on 02/07/2013 07:51:04

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

A note about ' cheque book engineering '

 

Andrew mentions above about making ones own bolts etc which could also spin off to mining ones own iron ore is we go back far enough and want to be pedantic.

 

However fast forward to today and there just isn't the time about given what trappings we have round us that needs attention. Only a couple of decades ago the average home shop engineer would have spent most nights doing what he / she got up to whether it be models, restoring vintage bikes / cars etc.

 

Today they are lucky to get a couple.

 

Companies have now sprung up like Polly Models who supply a kit of parts to built a very useable loco with no machinery and a minimum of hand tools and a paint brush.

At one time if you had arrived at a track with one of these you would have been a laughing stock because you didn't build it but things have changed and these kits are now well respected in fact I'm told they even have Polly running days at some tracks ?

 

For some it's about making the project, for others it's about using / running the project.

 

Because we have different aims check book engineering is not a derogatory comment. If it was there would be no need for any shows other than to let people in for free just to look at models also exhibited for free.

Lets fact it why do you need any trade stands if you are not buying anything ?

Edited By John Stevenson on 02/07/2013 09:32:00

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi, I agree with Andrew about laser or water cut frames, nuts bolts and even castings. Its all "cheque book" or as often the term used in industry "farming out".

I think as long as you declare work that you have not done yourself, any display can be said to be built by oneself if a reasonable amount of work has been put into it.

Regards Nick.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Andrew Johnston on 01/07/2013 22:36:07

Here's a definition from my dictionary:

model: a representation, usually on a smaller scale, of a device, structure etc.

Note that the definition doesn't even say always on a smaller scale. So what, in the true sense, is a model, quarter scale, tenth scale or less?

.

Some of the more interesting and useful models are on a scale greater than 1:1

MichaelG.

[Diane CarneyModerator @dianecarney30678]

Posted by John Stevenson on 02/07/2013 09:31:47:

A note about ' cheque book engineering '

At one time if you had arrived at a track with one of these you would have been a laughing stock because you didn't build it …

And presumably all the model locomotives built in the first half of the 20th Century would have been scrapped if there were no sons and heirs…. there being no 'market' for them …. ??

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

I've just seen a nice link to the MSRVS rally that was last weekend, I think the size of the engines there seem to tie in with what I said about where the road steam part of the hobby is at.

Enjoy (slide show is best)

[Sub MandrelParticipant @submandrel]

I think there is an issue which needs to be borne in mind – cost.

Bigger = more expensive, and though it's good news for an advertiser if they sell a big lathe or a set of castings for a 4" traction engine or a 7 1/2" loco, only a proportion of model engineers can afford such things. I'd love to make a Traction engine, but a 2" would be plenty for me and a major investment. Even buying a cheap set of castings can be a big thing for model engineers with a family & other demands on funds (e.g. me!)

My 3 1/2" gauge shunter cost about £100 in materials and everything else was already in the workshop or scrounged – the only hard to source bit would be the motor, but you could bodge any 12V motor to fit. I even used a biscuit tin to make the top of the bonnet because I ran out of brass!

The castings for Norden are going to be £50 + p&p and I'm really pleased they will be in the reach of most modellers. Blackgates are happy with the modest price as their philosophy is that sastified customers who get value for money will come back – a philosophy shared by many ME suppliers who give even small customers good service.

Another issue is the value of quick-fire projects. It's easy to get bogged down in a big project or a poorly doggy. Inspiration in the form of a simple, satisfying project can help keep the enthusiasm up. Making my version of Gray's lathe apron dial really perked me up at a time when I felt I was unable to move anything forwards.

I think it's really important that ME and MEW continue to have good selection of articles on models big and small, long series and short articles, from scrap and make-do to ones needing specialist castings or parts.

Variety is the spice of life – nothing kills any hobby activity faster than being too predictable and lacking in new interest.

Neil

[Anonymous]

I've found some of the comments in this thread rather dispiriting and vaguely insulting.

I'm building two 4" traction engines, and have a workshop commensurate with that. Yes, the engines are expensive, and heavy, and the machinery is largish, but not necessarily expensive. I've just dug out the invoice for my horizontal mill; £145 plus £165 for delivery, plus VAT of course. Normally I move machinery myself but the mill weighs 3500lbs, so not very practical. That's a lot of iron for the money!

There seems to be an undercurrent that this sort of activity shouldn't be allowed in ME/MEW because it costs money. Surely that's up to the individuals concerned; everybody has made their life choices and should live with the consequences, good and bad, without feeling the need to denigrate others.

Posted by Stub Mandrel on 02/07/2013 20:13:59:

I think it's really important that ME and MEW continue to have good selection of articles on models big and small, long series and short articles, from scrap and make-do to ones needing specialist castings or parts.

Onto the partial quote from Stub; I agree. As has been commented it takes a lot of time and effort to write an article. I have written a couple of articles for MEW in the past, and have one currently with the editor for consideration, although when, or if, it'll appear I don't know. I had some ideas for several other articles, but since they involve accessories that may not be found in all workshops, I'm not sure it's worth putting the effort into them.

Regards,

Andrew

Edited By Andrew Johnston on 02/07/2013 22:48:40

[Another JohnSParticipant @anotherjohns]

Posted by JasonB on 02/07/2013 07:50:37:

John I did say "I could not speak for locos", Diane's comment is about road steam as was mine.

Edited By JasonB on 02/07/2013 07:51:04

Fair enough – apologies for mis-understanding the context.

A friend here has a 3" scale Case, beautiful model, and I can see making 3" or 4" or so traction engines.

(off topic, kind of) I think locomotives are different in that you can have a lot of fun with a small one on an elevated track; while a little traction engine would leave me scratching my head.

(also maybe off topic, kind of) Of course, the railway loading gauge in Britain is constrained; the "light pacific" that I cut my teeth on while ideal for branch line service in Canada, is basically the same size as Mallard. (not as fast, though!)

Another JohnS.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Just touching back on the cost subject again. Although a traction engine may seem to cost a lot you do need to take into account the amount of time it will take you to make.

My 2" Fowler probably took 3-4 years to make and cost a few thousand pounds in materials and castings. I'm currently making a hit and miss engine that will likely take me 3-4 months to make and the casting kit is £650 plus barstock.

Worse case lets say 3 casting kits a year over three years thats £6000 plus so the traction engine was the cheaper option.

J

[Sub MandrelParticipant @submandrel]

Don't get me wrong Andrew, I don't begrudge those who have the resources investing in more expensive projects – believe me I'd do the same if I could. As you have (apparently) agreed my main point is such articles need to be complemented by 'affordable' projects.

Neil

[Author]

Posts