Is software a tool ?

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

?

Discussions and is there a place for it as an article in MEW or ME ?

[Carl Wilson 4Participant @carlwilson4]

It is like asking if mathematics is a tool. Yes it is. They both are. I think there is more than a passing place for software here and in the magazines.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

I suppose you coul dterm your PC as a machine such as a lathe or mill and the software a piece of tooling that is needed to get a finished product.

As to where it goes would really depend on the software on its application. A programme to create code for a CNC would be more suited to MEW, a drawing programme being used for designing models would possibly be better off in ME.

J

[Carl Wilson 4Participant @carlwilson4]

Yes I'd agree. I can understand though that it is difficult to be inclusive in a monthly or bi monthly publication that has to try to cover such a wide array of topics in a subject area. Especially when software related topics can sometimes not be the most interesting in terms of general reading.

I have an interest in electronics and microcontrollers as well as my workshop, but CNC doesn't really appeal to me – at the moment. I derive more pleasure (and it has to be admitted, sometimes frustration!) from using my manual machines and exercising what little skill I have.

When it comes to software and CNC topics, there is a wealth of information on the net. So much so that it is difficult to know where to begin. What magazines are very good at, in my opinion, is offering that "gap in the hedge" into a new world of what may be slightly bewildering ideas. After such an introduction one can then use provided references to study further via the net.

Someone else here has already said that some of the more in depth topics such as CNC, software, 3D modelling/printing etc could be dealt with in a "Special". I think that is a good idea, especially if the articles contain references to more in depth information on the net.

[David JuppParticipant @davidjupp51506]

Having submitted a potential article (not used) on 3D CAD, I'd offer a few comments.

Detailed articles on 'how to use' this or that piece of software tend to by their nature need a lot of space to be useful and will be of little interest to those who don't have (or intend to have) the software in question. I can see that such articles might not be justified very often, or would be better placed in a 'special'.

Articles tackling the benefits and/or problems of a broad type of software might be of wider interest.

Short articles reviewing relevant software could be very helpful (though subjective). Articles describing how software has been used to tackle an engineering task otherwise outside the capabilities of the author, or to give a better or faster outcome could potentially be interesting even to those with no intention of ever using such software.

Bob Warfield over at CNC Cookbook argues that 'Digital Tooling' is every bit as important as physical tooling in the workshop.

It is important to remember that software is relevant to much more than CNC machines or 3D printing. Small, well produced programs or apps for specific workshop or design tasks are just as relevant as complex, expensive software suites.

[Carl Wilson 4Participant @carlwilson4]

Yes I'd broadly agree with what you say. As well as covering software packages that have helped overcome a specific problem, there are also lots of useful little calculators out there. I have one that gives various bits of design relevant information relating to nominal bore pipe, for example. It would be a good idea to publicise this type of thing, that is to say small executables that are useful in the workshop.

I think that the world of model engineering is on the verge of the revolution that has occurred in full size practice. I'm talking about the emergence of what may be termed "Mechatronics". The enhancement of mechanical systems by electronics and software. There is very little of the old specialisation anymore and most engineering proffessionals find themselves working across disciplines.

I may need to start taking an electronics related publication again alongside ME and EiM; it will be interesting to see if overlap starts to develop in the future and to what extent.

[Michael HornerParticipant @michaelhorner54327]

The E-dictionary says yes!

In my day job I use a progam called TSTOOLS. This can read sensor outputs calibrate said sensors, load firmware into the modules that make up the machine, etc. So helps me determin what is wrong with a machine and hence fix it, sometimes It has no relavance to MEW or ME.

As someone has mentioned apps that calculate say trig functions are a useful tool for HWE but I doubt you would want to know how the software worked just were to get it from.

Cheers Michael

[Carl Wilson 4Participant @carlwilson4]

Yes, I'd agree that the name of the app or program that achieves the nifty little trick and where it can be found is more important than how it does it in most cases. I'd venture to suggest that all who post here know how to work out trig functions etc. We just want to do it quickly and conveniently.

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Thank you, I'll give it a little more thought.

Incidentally although what I was thinking of has a use in CNC it's not predominantly CNC related as a lot of the outcome from the program can be used on manual machines.

[MICHAEL WILLIAMSParticipant @michaelwilliams41215]

The computer is the tool . The software is what makes it do useful things .

In CNC it’s actually three stages :

Software drives computer and computer drives machine

Same as man and lathe – Brain drives hands and hands drive machine .

Taking the meant sense of the posting however software is a valuable ‘tool’ for many purposes in engineering – not just for CNC but in fact for many mundane purposes where it just saves time in working things out .

Problem is software has to be created for its purpose . There are two levels of this :

The properly prepared programme for general use – well written and tested .

The rapidly written ad hoc programme written quickly and used for something important at the time but then forgotten .

Writing either type of programme properly requires skill and discipline .

I am very very wary of programmes coming from random downloads and of APPS – who knows whether they are first class and accurate or just crap ???

MikeW

Edited By MICHAEL WILLIAMS on 12/01/2014 11:02:26

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

I suppose I would describe software as an electronic form of clockwork (think Babbage difference engine)

Very fast and potentially very useful and it can be constructed with an almost infinite variation of cog arrangements

There are different types of cogs/levers (opcodes) which perform different functions

aaa aad aam aas
adc add and bound
bsf bsr bswap bt
btc btr bts call
cbw cdq clc cld
cli cmc cmp cmpsb
cmpsd cmpsw cmpxchg cpuid
cwd cwde daa das
dec div enter hlt
idiv imul in inc
insb insd insw int etc etc

Putting them together properly builds a digital machine(electronic clockwork) which can do work

Edited By Ady1 on 12/01/2014 11:22:46

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Ady,

Think you need a new keyboard, try to get an English one and not a Welsh one……………

[Anonymous]

Actually I think they're assembler opcodes, but surely no-one programs in assembler these days?

Mathematics is absolutely fundamental to engineering and is definitely a tool, whether it be done by hand or software. So in that sense software too is a tool. I'd draw a rough distinction between two types of engineering software. First is what I would call the mathematical type. In this I include things like FEA, CFD, thermal analysis and electromagnetic solvers. In these packages the software is basically implementing mathematical analysis that would be tedious or impractical to do by hand. Care is needed in using these packages; garbage in, garbage out can be only too true. The second type of package is what I would call implementation software. In this category I would include 2D and 3D CAD and packages like schematic capture and PCB layout. These packages tend to automate tasks that were previously done by hand, but do not necessarily involve significant mathematical analysis. From a practical point of view the distinction between the two types of package is often blurred, and some packages do both. For instance a PCB layout package that will provide a finite element solution to Maxwell's equations to analyse the performance of a particular track or partial layout.

Software is definitely an essential engineering tool. Whether it has a place in ME or MEW is another matter. I'd agree with David Jupp in his analysis. Detailed articles on how to use a particular package are not a good use of space in a magazine, but more generic overviews could be useful. I expect that software in ME and MEW will happen anyway, even if by osmosis as more and more people write articles where software has been used to draw the item, analyse it, program it or whatever.

I think the same would go for mathematics in ME and MEW, I wouldn't expect to see pages and pages of complex integrals, but some equations can be useful, especially on the engineering side.

Here's a partial quote by Lord Kelvin:

"I often say that when you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meagre and unsatisfactory kind"

Regards,

Andrew

[Michael HornerParticipant @michaelhorner54327]

Hi Mike W

"The computer is the tool . The software is what makes it do useful things ."

So what kind of tool is a computer without out software/firmware – Paper weight / Toaster. Door stop

It's a bit like a ratchet without a socket as separate things there not much good but together very useful tool!

From my above anology the software is a tool also.

Cheers Michael

[John HaineParticipant @johnhaine32865]

I am making a small lathe and wanted to turn a couple of stepped pulleys on my CNC'd Myford. I quite quickly generated a spreadsheet that did all the calculations to move the tool to cut the Vee grooves; and also produced the G-code directly that just needed to be pasted into a text file to drive Mach 3. Previously I've used a similar approach to generate the G-code to turn a BT30 taper for my little cnc mill spindle. So yes, the spreadsheet is just a tool that you can use to do lots of repetitive calculations and then insert the results into G-code statements.

In my day job I'm using spreadsheets all the time as an engineering tool for doing complex electrical circuit calculations. The great advantage of doing it with a spreadsheet rather than a CAE package is the understanding you get from setting the sheet up, combined with the ability to do all the boring sums without making mistakes.

Most people using a spreadsheet think Microsoft Excel and get put off by the cost, but an almost equivalent package is part of Libre Office (previously known as Open Office) and you can download it for free. And you can open Excel files in Libre Calc, and LibreCalc files in Excel.

I can imagine that some readers would be put off by articles in MEW describing how to use Excel though. If only this site had an area for posting or hosting other file types than photos that could be a way of making such articles available, but I guess that's too much to hope for. No matter, other sites do allow this so people can still find them, in the end they will vote with their clicks/swipes.

[speelwerkParticipant @speelwerk]

For me software is not a tool, a tool hurts physical if you use it the wrong way, for instance if your fingers are hit hammer. Niko.

[Sub MandrelParticipant @submandrel]

> I have an interest in electronics and microcontrollers as well as my workshop, but CNC doesn't really appeal to me – at the moment. I derive more pleasure (and it has to be admitted, sometimes frustration!) from using my manual machines and exercising what little skill I have.

Interesting comment Carl – I feel exactly the same way! that said, as my models get more complex necessity is making me search around for a 3D CAD drawing package I get on with, and I'm sure CNC will get it's teeth into me in time.

That said I think software has a place in the magazines, especially MEW, but no long programme listings, which should be downloadable.

Neil

[Anonymous]

Posted by speelwerk on 12/01/2014 13:03:21:

For me software is not a tool, a tool hurts physical if you use it the wrong way, for instance if your fingers are hit hammer. Niko.

Believe me it hurts when the stupid software doesn't do what you want, or the computer crashes, and you end up thumping something.

Andrew

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

A – gain [ best Forest Gump voice ] this isn't about CNC as such as I fully agree with folk getting bored by long lines of code that to may is just gobbledy gook.

I also feel that some articles that made it into the mag should not have done so given the limitations.

One was the 3D drawing package that turned out to not be capable of generating 2D workshop drawings, when a similar package could have done.

Another was a conversion of the guys machine to CNC which got very very over complicated just so he could use an obscure controller. Appealed to him but dare say no one else.

CAD is a mine field. full stop.

It's no good doing articles on a certain system because it will only appeal to a few using that system and anyone else who's on CAD will resist change because they are familiar with what they are on. Write a generic text and it's that open ended it's also useless.

Now if there were only one CAD system it would be a different matter, the appeal would be aimed at more readers but it won't happen given there are literally thousands out there.

[John McNamaraParticipant @johnmcnamara74883]

Hi All
Is software a tool?
A bit of preamble

I remember when I first heard the some of the acronyms and shorthand terms used to describe how a computer works, "Software" often combined in the same sentence with the word "hardware". Hmmm what are they on? Then as if to really mess up my thinking there was system software, assembly language, and strange dialects like Algol, Basic, Pascal or Fortran. among dozens of others. apparently all happy to reside with the operating system software. Grrrr Bah humbug….. And what is a driver? Anyhow it took me ages to work out. This was around 1978. I guess today many would understand the above at least in principal.

About that time I was in luck, a friend had picked up a TRS80 a (Tandy TRS 80 level 2) and having played with it lost interest. As per the following link: **LINK**

It was only the keyboard the disk unit and monitor were too expensive I had to make do with an audio cassette recorder to store and retrieve programs, an art in itself. It had an interface and a little gismo that made it work with an old TV set. I remember the first time I turned it on to be greeted with a sign on message and a dos prompt.

Now the fun started, how to make it go? It did not seem to do anything. No Windows just that annoying flashing cursor. The unit had a built in basic interpreter complete with line numbers and Goto statements, the number of instructions was small but there was enough memory (16K) to write real programs. Please don't laugh.

This machine was the best computing training I could have ever received. I bought a book and trained myself to program. at the start I was just like this bloke: **LINK**

He is having a couple of attempts at trying to write the mandatory "Hello world" before he succeeds. You often find it at the start of beginners books. sort of a rite of passage. It brings back memories.

After a few months I finally got the hang of it and started to write useful tools that I could use in business doing product costing and the like, that I by then could print on a second hand dot matrix printer; it was so loud I dared not print late at night because it would wake the house. I now use Microsoft Access VBA maintaining a database I wrote a while back, surprisingly you do not forget its a bit like riding a bike.

Basic is still built into Microsoft office as VBA (Visual basic for applications) or as a stand alone program called visual basic express, completely free from Microsoft. With It you can write extremely powerful programs. They also offer several other languages C# for example. For the record purist programmers prefer C, good for them. Basic is fine for me and a lot easier for beginners to learn with its English like statements.

But now I better at least start to steer this thread back to the topic at hand. Is software a tool? Yes to me it is. OK not everyone will like to learn a programming language, The next level up to me is using a spreadsheet. I use Excel however there are free spreadsheets **LINK**is that are just as good

Spreadsheets are quite easy to learn, even if you do not used the VBA language previously mentioned that is built in but completely hidden unless you decide to open it. You should learn how to use the cell formulas there are plenty of beginners books that will make it easy.

So far I have only talked about programs and spreadsheets you make yourself. By now there must be many millions of professionally written applications for example Word processors and CAD programs you can use. They are all do a specific set of tasks. yes they are tools you choose them on the basis of a particular job to be done.

Communication via the internet must be the most useful tool of all, no other device can connect so many people in so many myriad ways. research that previously would take months is a few clicks away, then there are the social benefits of connecting people in many countries.

CNC is a bit of a special case using a PC to drive a machine is a different paradigm, in this case you are using it as a machine controller, often making changes to the operating system (Mach 3 does this), EMC installs Linux, or runs it from a CD it does nut run from Windows. You are repurposing the machine, in effect giving it up to a new use.

The CAD design software CAM (Computer aided manufacturing) programs normally reside on a separate PC as they may slow down or interrupt a PC dedicated to machine control, particularly if the CNC software is running.
Yes It is a great tool.

Regards
john

Edited By John McNamara on 12/01/2014 14:09:42

[Steve WithnellParticipant @stevewithnell34426]

Software is a tool. And in any common usage of the word!

Excel is one of the best tools in my workshop.

Does anyone programme in assembler any more? I don't know. The most curious programming project I was involved in was writing a Fortran compiler in Fortran. The driver being we could not generate working assembler code fast enough for a particular project.

Steve

[Sub MandrelParticipant @submandrel]

> Does anyone programme in assembler any more?

There's a few of us here! I know Les has been using assembler on his digital scale interface, and I think Andrew has done a bit.

 

Surely a Fortan compiler is simple? It just outputs "SYNTAX ERR0R" regardless of whatever you put into it.

Neil

Edited By Stub Mandrel on 12/01/2014 17:21:52

[Carl Wilson 4Participant @carlwilson4]

A lot of interesting replies and some great food for thought. I too had a Tandy TRS80 and one of the first things I did with it was turn a motor on and off…my parents were mortified, having spent a fortune on this curious beast that their son was then sticking old bits of wire into the back of…

The definition of a tool as something that does you harm if you misuse it is a good one! I think that most of the errors made in engineering or indeed other fields can be attributed to using the wrong tool or using the tool wrong. Time for my own bit of preamble.

Computers and software considered in isolation are tools I think. That said, they are much like a lathe chuck sitting on the bench, which does not truly come into its own until fixed to the lathe spindle. Once the computer has software running on it it becomes the most formidable tool of all. Dr. Alan Turing, widely regarded as the father of digital computing and the software approach, wrote these words in 1948:-

"We do not need to have an infinity of different machines doing different jobs. A single one will suffice. The engineering problem of producing various machines for various jobs is replaced by the office work of 'programming' the universal machine to do these jobs."

Turing's term for computer at this time was "universal machine". During this period a computer was more commonly known as a mathematician, often a girl, employed to carry out long and tedious calculations.

The computer as we know it has gone on to become the universal machine of Turing's dream. This universal machine can be loaded with all sorts of software to do all manner of jobs. And many of them are of interest to us as engineers.

Back in the real world again, I would agree that big expensive CAD packages like Autocad or Solid Works aren't really fertile grounds for magazine articles. The same goes for CNC conversions, up to a point. If someone is building a system that uses, say, a PIC microcontroller as the brains, then the hex code for this could be downloaded fairly easily from this site. There is no need for long lists of code. Many of the electronics magazines feature PICs and downloadable code is the norm. And yes, assembler is still used for these devices, in some cases.

As I mentioned earlier there is a lot of useful engineering software out there for free download. The vast majority of it comes from reputable sites and sources, often equipment manufacturers. The core mathematical principle used in the algorithm is usually given, so you can see how it "does what it does".

I have already given the example of a little executable I use that gives nominal bore pipe data. I am interested in building liquid fuelled rocket engines (I take the ME because I have a fiendish plot to put a traction engine into low earth orbit) and I have an excellent programme called Rocket Propulsion Analysis (RPA). This enables me to input a fuel and oxidiser combination and nozzle parameters to get ideal and estimated specific impulse, mixture ratio, estimated efficiency and even the hot gas constituent species. All stuff that I can calculate but which takes time.

I appreciate the examples I've given are a bit specialist but there are many others out there that are far more generic. It would be nice to hear about them in the mag and maybe have a small review, even half a page. Of course there is likely to be software developed by individual subscribers that might be of use to others and this too could be shared.

As an aside, I have a Drummond treadle lathe coming my way in a few weeks time that needs some TLC. Now if I can just strap it across the front of an armchair….

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Posted by Carl Wilson 4 on 12/01/2014 17:34:20I take the ME because I have a fiendish plot to put a traction engine into low earth orbit)

Make that a Choo choo and I'm in…………………..

[Author]

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