Is Model Engineering “green”?

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

An interesting discussion.

I'm somewhat conflicted because of the large amount of resources that are going into my workshop rig-out.

I've tried to insulate and draught proof as best I can, especially as it is quite big, and so far a trial indicates it is going to prove efficient to heat, once I have insulated a final panel and completed draught proofing. On a nearly windless day, the temperature inside rises by 2-3 degrees with just me and the dehumidifier, which is only 200 watts when flat out, and that's with me occasionally opening the rather badly sealed main door.

My main bugbear is the door, which is warped and has required some ingenuity in making a 'sealable' door frame. Essentially, I'm fitting the frame to the door, rather than the other way around. I've now got some suitable strip to make a seal all round, but I've lost the torx bit for finally fitting the final screws for the repositioned hinges.. every little job leads to another little job. At the other end, I've made an insulated false wall inside the heavy-duty roller shutter. Easy to make a close-fitting door, more challenging to achieve a draught-sealed join to the steel roof. I've had to use expanding polyurethane foam, apparently modern ones are less damaging than the old ones. Sill hideous to use. I have six feet to complete once I can get into that corner! I also have a few more sections of plasterboard 'pelmet' (just 4" wide lengths) to finish sealing the other wall/ceiling joints.

95% of the walls are either wooden door or polystyrene insulation, the floor is laid with a moisture proof membrane and then insulating foam panels over the concrete. I've had to go for 'bubble wrap'-style insulation for the roof for practical reasons. It's not the most efficient solution, but a fully enclosed insulated roof was going to be impractical.

I will only be using very low-level anti-frost heating except when I am inside (there is sufficient insulation that condensation won't be a worry – the original garage was plagued by it, but it is definitely cured now). I have max-min thermometer and hygrometer set up, and I will be keeping a close eye on its performance. I'm also using a non-contact IR thermometer to track down draughts and cold spots. The one thing the 'jury' is out on is whether I should clad about four-feet in width of wall which is painted concrete block. If these end up as significant cold spots I may just cover them in 2mm polystyrene, which can be effective despite being very thin.

As for kitting out, the timber came from B&Q, partly because I know it's all to Forestry Stewardship Council standard. I'm using screwed construction for benches etc. and designing it to make as much as possible removable and reusable. A lesson learned from my previous workshop, where the new owner is benefitting from my old benches. Much of the timber that came out has been to poor to re-use and has been recycled. Notable exceptions are a very sturdy but narrow woodwork benchtop, about 1 1/2" thick and a heavy duty, but battered, eight-foot bench originally made for the workshop in my grandfather's shop by a school woodwork teacher 'in the evenings'. It still has (long since unconnected) pairs of 5A two-pin sockets at each end, once used for multiple soldering irons. With a new plywood shelf it will be used mostly for storage.

Lighting will all be LED, although I'm a bit worried that a total of 240W of LED striplights may end up more like a tanning salon than a workshop, but I can always add individual switching.

Sorry if this has wandered off the point a bit! My main aim has been to maximise energy efficiency and eliminate damp and draughts.

As for what I do in it… I have most of the materials I will need for my planned projects, and I will continue to try and maximise the re-use of materials. I will also try and continue to use my workshop to repair things rather than replace them.

Neil

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

Keith –

Not quite a "red herring" by commerce. The People's Republic of China has recently ended its birth-contol laws because it was indeed leading to population with more elderly than young, pro-rata.

++++

Are we "green"? Not in the slang sense, judging by the lively discussions elsewhere on this forum: we know the differences between heat and temperature, energy and power, and why coal is still important for producing iron not steel.

Yes we use a fair amount of electricity to make modles of which many will burn coal – though the CO2 from an afternoon's steaming must be miniscule compared to that from certain other mechanically-based hobbies.

On the other hand we use not only new machine-tools with modern electric motors, but often keep very old machine-tools going, mending rather than throwing away, and often treating them to modern motors and drives too.

If we were not in our workshops what would we be doing? Sitting in a very warm house watching TV programmes which even if our end uses little electricity, represent vast kH/h at the production end? We cannot deny that our society likes its luxuries and we are no exception, be we spending an evening at a concert or an evening milling a big lump of steel. Indeed a society that likes it luxuries to profligacy – never mind battery-driven cars to move the pollution and land-fills elsewhere;, what of all the electricity wasted in motorway service-areas with their amusment-machines and gee-gaw shops irrelevant to taking a rest from driving?

We all enjoy our leisure, but if we were really Full Members of the Greta Tornberg Fan Club would we be installing machine-shops in our homes, going to the theatre, travelling long distances on holiday, having hot showers, etc., etc.?

No we are not as "green" as perhaps Extant Rebellicose and Greater Thunderbox would like. Besides, where are we going to find slide-way oil – or hydraulic oil and insulating materials for wind-turbines – if she closes the oil-refineries? Nevertheless we are probably no worse, indeed "better", than many others – for one thing our collective penchant for "recycling" old tools and materials would put the Wombles to shame.

By all means "save the planet"… but let's keep a sense of proportion, understand what needs to be done – and consider the cultural and social costs.

I am only glad not to have bred. I hate to think what any great-grand-sprogs of mine might eventually face. A safe life climatologically perhaps, but in a very isolated, culturally and economically poor society, I fear.

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

The air in my workshop was decidedly blue (not green) on Saturday when I carefully made 2 components to exactly the wrong dimensions. Teach me to do a proper sketch beforehand rather than working it out in my head.

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi, well I don't think there are any hobbies that are totally green, but whatever you do, you could probably find a green reason why you shouldn't be doing it. Myself, I use as much reusable materials as I possible can and have a variety of off cuts of steel from my working days that would have ended up in the scrap bin. I don't have any heating in my garage so to speak, but I do have two areas which are partitioned off and are reasonably insulated, one of which still has to be finished off, but the other one has a thermostatically controlled oil radiator set to keep it at around 12C minimum but if it gets a bit to cold to work, I can just turn it up a little and then back down when I've finished, more than 70% of materials for partitioning off and putting in a ceiling in both areas has been done by reuse of wood, MDF and about 50% plasterboard and I've put LED lights in the second section and intend to change my 125 watt fluorescent strip light for LED ones soon. I'm retired so I don't have to use my car even half of the time I used too. I actually don't like things that you can't take to bits and repair and prefer proper screws / fixings rather than silly plastic tabs that very often snap off.

Regards Nick.

[DiogenesIIParticipant @diogenesii]

I can't totally seal the workshop above head-height, because the bats won't be able to get out – and I can't seal it at ground level because the shrew family and the wood-mice like to come and go – and they are my 'rat-canaries'..

I can't raise the temperature because the tortoise will wake up, however if it gets too near freezing, I'll have to bring her in, and then I might burn some wood, although woodsmoke condensing on bare machined surfaces never ends well in the long-run.

As far as the machine-tools go, as long as the air is free to circulate, the only major problem is with arriving warm-fronts which, two-or-three times a year, cause every cold surface to run with water which has to be attended to – a squirt of the inversally-derided dispersant usually does the trick, along with a wipe-down as soon as it's passed – it's okay if one is attentive and as much of my life is intertwined with the weather and it's doings, we're well-attenuated.

Stuff like rotary table, chucks etc. get an oily wipe-over before they are put away, on VCI paper in birch-ply wine boxes, or wooden cabinets, or on the rubber mats that line the drawers in the lathe cabinet..

What do we actually need, and how much do we just find convenient..

Who was it that did most of his work in a damp, dingy, former-wash-house attached to the back of his house – Walshaw? Westbury? Sparey? ..someone knows I'm sure..

[colin hawesParticipant @colinhawes85982]

Seems to me that natural pollution from volcanos and forest fires has a bit to do with excessive CO2 and the loss of trees has a lot to do with failing to reduce carbon absorption .Why didn't we hear so much of global warming in the decades of smoky domestic chimneys? Colin

[Tim StevensParticipant @timstevens64731]

Let's try for a moment to think within the box, but also to realise how big the box really is. Which box? The box marked 'Model Engineering'.

There is no rule which says it has to be anything to do with railways or steam, or coal, or petrol, or electricity. It is just as legitimate to make a model of any engineered product, or even anything which might be engineered in the future, by carving it out of wood or bone, if that is what the job requires. Good models of the Eiffel Tower (and no-one can deny that is engineered) can be made from paper and straws.

And the topic is not limited to hobby activity, either. An inventor near me wanted a miniature of a life-size idea, based around the workings of a car differential, but not using it for power transmission. The job was done and he went away happy, having paid a fair price for the work. Was it model engineering? Of course.

There will be changes in the future, but there will still be blokes in sheds making stuff.

Cheers, Tim

[File HandleParticipant @filehandle]

I have wondered if green hydrogen burners can replace coal when it is finally banned, or an electric compressor instead of steam or if steam power will go out of fashion as it is no longer remembered from ME's youth.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by colin hawes on 30/11/2021 17:19:18:

Seems to me that natural pollution from volcanos and forest fires has a bit to do with excessive CO2 and the loss of trees has a lot to do with failing to reduce carbon absorption .Why didn't we hear so much of global warming in the decades of smoky domestic chimneys? Colin

Helps to put numbers on problems. This graph shows the amount of CO2 put into the atmosphere each year by mankind since 1750.

Man-made CO2 output was relatively low during the smoking chimney era, not reaching 6 billion tonnes per year until 1950. After 1950, burning oil and coal really took off and this year humanity will dump about 36 billion tonnes of CO2 into the atmosphere. Human emissions are in addition to natural sources and it can't be said the quantity doesn't matter.

Massive increases burning fossil fuels during my lifetime, far beyond anything done before. It's not surprising there are consequences.

Dave

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 30/11/2021 18:21:27:

[…]

Helps to put numbers on problems. This graph shows the amount of CO2 put into the atmosphere each year by mankind since 1750.

.

Simple, Honest question, Dave …

Do you have any idea at what point on that graph the data start being trustworthy ?

MichaelG.

[Harry WilkesParticipant @harrywilkes58467]

Who cares Ive turned the gas down use less electric and drive less so done my bit take the workshop away may as well stop in bed !!!

H

[old martParticipant @oldmart]

Model engineering is certainly greener than having a gas guzzling V8 American car to pollute the world.

[Andy CarlsonParticipant @andycarlson18141]

I've been trying to resist… but temptation has got the better of me.

An eco variation on what must be everyone's favourite recurring forum topic…

Presumably more green points should go to those who populate their workshops with lovingly restored classic British made lathes rather than newly minted ones from the other side of the planet.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

There’s probably no actual need for restoration, Andy

MichaelG.

[Ex contributorParticipant @mgnbuk]

Can't say I have given the "green-ness" of my workshop activities a second thought & have no intention of doing so. My stopping such activities would make no appreciable difference to anything in the greater scheme of things – totally eradicating my 1/68000000 contribution to the UKs emissions would make no appreciable difference either & totally eradicating the UKs entire contribution would make for all of a 1% reduction in worldwide emissions & that would be snuffed out within a year by other countries increased output.

Additional workshop electricity consumption is negligable & most likely exceeded by the excess generated by the solar panels that I can't use that goes back into the grid. Heating (when required) is around 1/2 a litre of red diesel an hour through a 5Kw air heater – not going to get worried about that while the 20% of global emissions attributed to military activities world wide are off the COP agenda.

All my machines are "second user" & the newest is over 25 years old (barring the Chester 3-in-1 sheet metal machine which was new 20 years ago). Most of the metal in the stash is industrial offcuts or recycled from other sources (still working through my late father's stash of angle iron bed frames !) – re-using or using up "stuff" that has already been made is surely for the better ?

Nigel B.

[Tony Pratt 1Participant @tonypratt1]

Posted by Harry Wilkes on 30/11/2021 18:51:28:

Who cares Ive turned the gas down use less electric and drive less so done my bit take the workshop away may as well stop in bed !!!

H

My thoughts exactly! Anyone over 60 did their bit years ago without even realising it 😀

Tony

[Peter G. ShawParticipant @peterg-shaw75338]

I have to say that whenever I hear, or read about, self-appointed pundits telling me what to do, then my instinctive reaction is to ignore them. And when it comes to that Swedish brat, who, apparently, has three mental problems (source Wikipedia), and has skipped school (so why weren't her parents prosecuted?) and thus could be said to have no ideas on how to counteract any problems, well, words fail me.

Now let it be understood that this does not mean that I am a so-called climate change denier. What it means is that I do not trust these people. Indeed, my memory stretching back over the last 65 years or so does indeed suggest that heavy snowfall winters have considerably decreased, hence something is going on, but what?

So, are we green? Well, if it comes to managing to repair broken equipment, then perhaps we are. But at what cost? What about all the resources used in buying our equipment? Is it better to scrap the broken item or to spend (waste?) resources on buying equipment to repair it?

And what about recently when I updated my computing equipment. The old ones still worked, albeit slowly. Should I have updated it? Perhaps not.

Similar argument over home heating. Apparently following the recent storm, there are some poor souls who will not be reconnected to the electricity grid until Friday which will make over a week without electric power, and hence no heating, washing or cooking facilities. And yet we are being told that we have to changeover to electricity for everything. How many of these people will now be rethinking their heating/cooking arrangements? For example, we had a long power cut some years ago, and we are all electric. As it happens we had (and still have) a coal fire so we were ok for both heating and hot water. But cooking was a problem – we now have a 2 burner + grill camping cooker which will work off our caravan gas bottles. Do these zealots really expect me to shiver and freeze in a similar situation? Would they shiver and freeze in the same situation? I rather suspect not, indeed I rather suspect that all these "greenies" live somewhere where major storm disturbances will only slightly affect them.

Sorry folks, rant over.

Peter G. Shaw

[Tony Pratt 1Participant @tonypratt1]

We have all heard the saying 'don't put all your eggs in one basket [electricity]'

Tony

[SamsarandaParticipant @samsaranda]

Peter, your rant reminded me of the hurricane in 87, we live on the south coast so we were in the eye of the storm so to speak, had just moved into our house and everything was electric excepting our gas central heating. The storm knocked out our electrics for three days, so no heating because the gas relies on electricity for the controls, no cooking because stove was electric and of course no lights after dark. Our house fortunately had a fireplace which I soon resurrected to working status so we had limited heating, ever since that day the fireplace has always been a working one, currently has an inset woodburner which we use all winter. Cooking was achieved by a camping gas stove, a relic of our camping days, surprising how creative camping stove cooking can be. Anyway looking at green credentials I agree with most correspondents that our hobby is not very green. Looking at the long term prospects of our fragile world I fear that the recent climate conference will be as productive as previous ones have been, nothing much will change, those who run the world we live in are too scared to make unpopular changes because effectively they will be voting themselves out of a job. Will be interesting to review progress or lack of when the next climate conference takes place, they will still be wringing their hands saying the world is doomed and I bet nothing changes. Dave W

[blowlampParticipant @blowlamp]

I remember the good old days, when we only had to worry about the hole in the Ozone Layer and Acid Rain.

[derek hall 1Participant @derekhall1]

Not forgetting in the 1970's, the impending ice age…

Regards

Derek

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Peter G. Shaw on 01/12/2021 11:17:52:

I have to say that whenever I hear, or read about, self-appointed pundits telling me what to do, then my instinctive reaction is to ignore them. …

Do these zealots really expect me to shiver and freeze in a similar situation? Would they shiver and freeze in the same situation? I rather suspect not, indeed I rather suspect that all these "greenies" live somewhere where major storm disturbances will only slightly affect them.

Sorry folks, rant over.

Peter G. Shaw

So who are these 'self-appointed pundits'? In the UK, its the Royal Institute, the Chief Government Scientific Advisor, and all our major scientific universities. Hardly a bunch of swivelled eyed loons! Similar across the world; the scientific consensus is almost total whether academic, private or government funded.

Zealots is also unhelpful language! Dismissing anyone who cares about the future as a 'Greenie' or 'Tree Hugger' is plain daft in my opinion. The future isn't about individuals shivering after a power cut, it's about global disruption of weather, agriculture, trade, and pretty much everything we hold dear.

Unfortunately humans are really bad at understanding risk. We comprehend small inconveniences like local power cuts, but not the effect of truly massive change caused by raising the average temperature of the atmosphere by 2 to 4°C during this century. What's happening in Cumbria today is tiny compared with failing to manage Green issues.

Nothing lasts forever. The future is deeply uncertain due to Global Warming and diminishing resources. Problems that can't be managed by carrying on as we are at the moment. Like it or not, change is inevitable.

I'm in favour of maintaining a high standard of living by adapting to the new reality. Better to find answers than go into denial. What's the alternative? I hope it's not whinging about schoolgirls and believing all is well despite uncomfortable evidence!

Dave

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 30/11/2021 18:40:36:

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 30/11/2021 18:21:27:

[…]

Helps to put numbers on problems. This graph shows the amount of CO2 put into the atmosphere each year by mankind since 1750.

.

Simple, Honest question, Dave …

Do you have any idea at what point on that graph the data start being trustworthy ?

MichaelG.

.

Bump ^^^

MichaelG.

[File HandleParticipant @filehandle]

With more recent interest in green hydrogen perhaps not all eggs are going into the same basket, even though its [production does rely on electricity.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 01/12/2021 14:44:37:

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 30/11/2021 18:40:36:

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 30/11/2021 18:21:27:

[…]

Helps to put numbers on problems. This graph shows the amount of CO2 put into the atmosphere each year by mankind since 1750.

.

Simple, Honest question, Dave …

Do you have any idea at what point on that graph the data start being trustworthy ?

…

Well, we're talking about commercially accounted industrial production covering both coal and oil. Profit and loss, tax, imports and exports, wages, transport records, insurance were all documented more-or-less completely.

Some of this stuff is on the web. Here's an example chosen at random from the excellent Durham Mining Museum website. It's production from the East Pontop Colliery (near Newcastle), which closed in 1930, together with the number of employees.

One chilling feature of the Durham Website is that accidents were much less well documented than production. The website lists 13 fatalities for this colliery, but the list is a work in progress. It's assembled by volunteers searching through newspapers, death certificates, and family records rather than pulled from well-organised book-keeping. Unlike the immediate need to account for money, the requirement to keep proper accident records developed slowly over time.

The website also shows what the geology of most mines was, and from that information the UK reserves were pretty much fully quantified before 1900. This example is E-Pit Heaton. It shows three seams of coal, one 6" thick, one 10" and the only one worth digging out was 6 feet thick 468 feet underground. Quite a lot of the coal left in the UK lies in these thin seams, and it might always be too expensive to recover.

There are no massive coal reserves under the UK.

I agree the CO2 numbers can't be spot on, for example I don't know if they include gas from Centralia and other underground fires, or if production figures from Soviet Russia were truthful, or if every mine and well in the world was included. Nonetheless I think the picture is reasonable considering the scale is in billions of tonnes.

Dave

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