Is it really a joke

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Frankly, your post is nonsense to me.

In simplicity, you don’t need to run everything all the time.

How much energy can a hot water cylinder hold? How long do you need to run your immersion?

How often would you do long distances in your (then electric) car? Each hour should replenish your car battery by about ‘30 miles’. Fast DC charging is available – if really needed.

Many houses can generate some energy with PV. Not always at the best time when heating is required.

Many electric heating systems use a tariff where some recharging can be carried out in the early afternoon.

I doubt you are on the same phase as your next door neighbour. That feed would obviously be good for 200A . Doubtless some near neighbours would all be on the same phase of the supply – it is inevitable.

A 100A fuse is not going to blow at exactly 100A – more likely a short term 150A might not blow it.

Concentrating on extra insulation is likely a good ploy – reducing heating needs can work wonders. Fitting PV panels and a storage battery could likely very much reduce your reliance on the grid supply.

Of course, there are averages and ranges for all statistics. Average annual private car mileage is around 8000 – that is 22 miles per day. Some houses may have two vehicles, of course.

As I see it, from your post, you don’t really want to help yourself with your future energy needs?

[Compulsive purchaserParticipant @compulsivepurchaser]

I work for a large DNO and they decreed last year that any new electric supply we now install has to be three phase to cope with extra demand on the system in the future. This is even if the existing mains / transformer is single phase, we have still have to lay new three phase cables to the property and fit a 3phase cutout.

[Andy StopfordParticipant @andystopford50521]

There was a chap from National Grid on the radio a few months ago. He said that they weren't worried about increased demands from charging electric vehicles – much of the load (managed by smart chargers/meters) would be in the small hours when other demand was low, and existing infrastructure could easily handle this.

He did say that a widespread switch from gas to electric heating would be more of a problem, and National Grid are working to increase capacity to cope with this when it comes. Improving insulation in domestic properties would presumably help to mitigate this.

[Another JohnSParticipant @anotherjohns]

Maybe the biggest joke about the article is that cars have lived past their usefulness?

This struck me when viewing a Youtube video of Vancouver, taken (about) 100 years ago on the back of a streetcar, and spliced in was views of now. 100 years ago; open streets, people walking/cycling, the odd horse and wagon.

Now? Gridlock.

100 years from now???? (the current trend can't continue unless roads are like 10 stories high)

I love my car, but I'm getting to think that the "15 minute city" has its future. (Not to mention that cars are something like the biggest killers of humans in the world)

I don't think that anyone knows what the future will be, certainly the 1950s "helicopter in every garage" and a "robot in every kitchen" has not really come to fruition!

Just my abysmal input to match the abysmal weather we have today.

[Peter G. ShawParticipant @peterg-shaw75338]

NDIY,

Agreed that I don't need to run everything at once, but, what you are forgetting is that Economy 7 switches on everything at the same time. Therefore the worst case would be an instantaneous load of about 80A. Fortunately, the washer is switched on when we remember, and we don't use our spare bedroom heater.

The immersion heater runs for, if I remember correctly, about 3/4 of an hour, so could be deferred with a delay switch of some description, but that costs money – see last paragraph.

Mileage. You have no idea about our mileage. Currently, we are averaging about 10K p.a which is actually less than the 13K p.a before Covid, however, a lot of those miles are anything up to 60m return. Plus, there are a few hills of varying steepness around here.

Solar power? Not unless I'm forced into it by government decree. And even then I would leave it as long as possible.

As already said, I'm on Economy 7, not Economy 10.

I accept that next door most likely will not be on the same phase, but what about the heating effect of taking large amounts of current albeit on two phases through the same cable. Stewart Smith 5 makes a good point about the cables.

Agreed that a 100A fuse will not fail at 100A. When I was studying these things, a goodly number of years ago, I, and others in the same course were told that the fuse should carry its rated current for ever, fail instantly at double its rated current, and fail at some indeterminate point between the two values. Now these were small fuses, 0.5A, 1.0A, 1.5A, that sort of order. Large 100A fuses may well be different, but that I do not know.

Final comment.

As I see it, from your post, you don’t really want to help yourself with your future energy needs?

True.

As someone who is 3 months off 79, and has cancer, fitting solar panels, backup/storage batteries/fancy controllers or indeed anything else of that nature, frankly is not worthwhile for me as I will never get the money back and I'm simply not prepared to spend good money on something I will not get the benefit from – unless as is currently happening to my windows, I need to have some repairs done. I don't particularly care about the next owners of this property – what they do is up to them, they can spend as many thousands as they wish – I'm not. And before you say it, yes, the house won't fetch as much. And indeed there could be problems with the EPC. So be it.

Regards,

Peter G. Shaw

[HollowpointParticipant @hollowpoint]

Interesting. But just wait until your ev is permanently connected to the internet and can be switched off by the government whenever it feels like! 🤫🤣🫣

[pgk pgkParticipant @pgkpgk17461]

Posted by Hollowpoint on 07/04/2022 22:44:39:

Interesting. But just wait until your ev is permanently connected to the internet and can be switched off by the government whenever it feels like! 🤫🤣🫣

In addition to tracking you via a chip in your pocket and listening to all your conversations and watching you at home via PC or TV and checking your front door camera or tracking you via CCTV ?

Nah, It'll never happen, folk wouldn't stand for it….

[Peter G. ShawParticipant @peterg-shaw75338]

But just wait until your ev is permanently connected to the internet and can be switched off by the government whenever it feels like! 🤫🤣🫣

Been talked about for a long number of years. Indeed, there was once a serious proposal that all new cars would be fitted with such a device from a certain date, 2019 I believe. The idea was called Intelligent Speed Adaptor and would limit the car's maximum speed to the prevailing road speed limit. Or whatever someone remote decided!

Actually, I think it might have been an EU requirement.

Peter G. Shaw

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

The 100A limit is irrelevant as only Elon Musk can afford to soak that amount on a daily basis.
The E7 turn on load is being mitigated already by smart meters that can have their turn on time remotely spread out. The system already handles the instant turn on from the old crude mechanical switches so new installations only have to have a few of the heaters fitted with a delay and heat pumps replacing gas boilers can be made to spread their load.
More intelligent devices will start to adjust their turn on and ramp up the load they present which is probably already done by car chargers Since the smart meters transmit instantaneous consumption to the little consumer display this data could be used by smart devices to control themselves appropriately.
One of the things that ought to be done is assessing gas and electricity consumption per house based on the type of property to detect people who are obviously heating excessively or have inadequate insulation. They can be further assessed with infra red cameras to identify the problem area and targeted for remedial education.

[Nick WheelerParticipant @nickwheeler]

Posted by Peter G. Shaw on 08/04/2022 10:17:52:

But just wait until your ev is permanently connected to the internet and can be switched off by the government whenever it feels like! 🤫🤣🫣

Been talked about for a long number of years. Indeed, there was once a serious proposal that all new cars would be fitted with such a device from a certain date, 2019 I believe. The idea was called Intelligent Speed Adaptor and would limit the car's maximum speed to the prevailing road speed limit. Or whatever someone remote decided!

Sometime after they fitted trackers to all the company vehicles, I got a phonecall from my boss –

Boss: Why are you doing 300mph through Sittingbourne?

Me: You said the job was urgent, and I don't pay for the diesel.

Boss: Click

Me: Pillock

[Bob Unitt 1Participant @bobunitt1]

Posted by Bazyle on 08/04/2022 10:22:16:

One of the things that ought to be done is assessing gas and electricity consumption per house based on the type of property to detect people who are obviously heating excessively or have inadequate insulation. They can be further assessed with infra red cameras to identify the problem area and targeted for remedial education.

Who's going to pay for this 'remedial education'-mandated insulation ? I'm 75, and I live in a 150 year old house that leaks heat like a sieve. I've done what I can by way of secondary glazing, draft prevention etc., but the main problem is the roof – the bedrooms are within the roof-space, so there's no attic. I'd have to have the roof stripped, specialist insulation put in between the joists, and then rebuilt. It's currently a perfectly good roof in all respects except insulation. The cost of the above work would be in the tens of thousands, money I haven't got and, being retired, I'm not going to borrow it. I won't live long enough to repay the cost of the job with reduced heating bills. Governments promise help, grants etc. but it's all the usual puffery – last grant scheme would only apply to houses with tiled roofs, but mine (like most houses round here) is slate. I know what the problem is, what I don't need is some jumped-up council official giving me 'remedial education' – give me some grant money instead !

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Hollowpoint on 07/04/2022 22:44:39:

Interesting. But just wait until your ev is permanently connected to the internet and can be switched off by the government whenever it feels like! 🤫🤣🫣

It's a legitimate concern. Not all governments are cuddly democracies who can be called to account!

However, turning an EV off isn't much different from what can already be done. If a cuddly democracy wants to stop you driving it can:

• Increase Tax until you can't afford to drive
• Ration fuel, licences, and car purchases
• Revoke your licence
• Stop repairing roads, closing them, and introducing congestion charges
• Make it too difficult to park, or make progress
• Put you under arrest at home with an ankle tag, or in jail. New offences can be created!
• Install number plate or electronic recognition systems.
• Fit cars with GPS and remote activated kill switches
• Install rising bollards and deploy stinger spikes

Disreputable governments can go much further, up to hanging offenders from the nearest tree after torturing them as an example to others.

In one way the US is well-placed to exploit renewable energy and EVs: they have plenty of sunny land for solar panels! On the downside, it's difficult to see how an EV will be good enough for the folk who live in large empty areas like Montana. But I don't see EVs as a one size fits all solution: rather they can be used in large numbers in in densely populated areas to free up IC fuel for people who can't use EVs. It's a management problem, where politics don't help.

Dave

[Dave HalfordParticipant @davehalford22513]

Posted by Bob Unitt 1 on 08/04/2022 11:03:15:

Posted by Bazyle on 08/04/2022 10:22:16:

One of the things that ought to be done is assessing gas and electricity consumption per house based on the type of property to detect people who are obviously heating excessively or have inadequate insulation. They can be further assessed with infra red cameras to identify the problem area and targeted for remedial education.

Who's going to pay for this 'remedial education'-mandated insulation ? I'm 75, and I live in a 150 year old house that leaks heat like a sieve. I've done what I can by way of secondary glazing, draft prevention etc., but the main problem is the roof – the bedrooms are within the roof-space, so there's no attic. I'd have to have the roof stripped, specialist insulation put in between the joists, and then rebuilt. It's currently a perfectly good roof in all respects except insulation. The cost of the above work would be in the tens of thousands, money I haven't got and, being retired, I'm not going to borrow it. I won't live long enough to repay the cost of the job with reduced heating bills. Governments promise help, grants etc. but it's all the usual puffery – last grant scheme would only apply to houses with tiled roofs, but mine (like most houses round here) is slate. I know what the problem is, what I don't need is some jumped-up council official giving me 'remedial education' – give me some grant money instead !

Peoples behaviour with insulation grants can be a little odd.

The first I had was free roof insulation in a 30's house when 4" was fitted.

2nd I had a top up in an 1988 house to bring the 4" up to 6"

3rd I had in the same 1988 house was additional cavity wall beads blown in on top of the existing 1" foam sheet.

None of the neighbours took up any of the offers of this free work paid for by the utilities (and tacked on everyone's bill) at either house. Too good to be true and you can't get owt for nowt???

Bob,

My Grandmother had the same roof hot, as hell in summer and frozen solid in winter.

Having had a big ceiling re plaster boarded properly when all the joint tape fell off it might be possible to fit Batts from the inside and re board and plaster. DIY apart from plastering, but not for the over 70's and pretty messy but a damn sight cheaper than having the roof off.

[Martin King 2Participant @martinking2]

Hi All,

hope this is not off thread but will the new enormous energy price hikes make fitting a Tesla Powerwall or similar

more viable in terms of payback time?

does anyone here have one or know someone who does please?

cheers Martin

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

Remember that politician soundbites about what "we" are going do by "when" are not necessarily based on either knowledge or logic. And certainly without any certain knowledge of "how"

As usual, making promises for others to keep.

Just be suitably sceptical, and think things through.

At school, one morning, our Physics master asked if we had heard the announcement on the 8 o'clock news that the sun had a temperature of 5 million degrees Centigrade?

And then, "How was it measured?"

Since then, in my view, very little can safely be taken at face value. We all have our prejudices and hobby horses.

Howard

[Bill PhinnParticipant @billphinn90025]

Posted by Bazyle on 08/04/2022 10:22:16:

One of the things that ought to be done is assessing gas and electricity consumption per house based on the type of property to detect people who are obviously heating excessively or have inadequate insulation. They can be further assessed with infra red cameras to identify the problem area and targeted for remedial education.

In addition to Bob Unitt's valid objection to that, I'd say the difficulty would be deciding fairly who is heating excessively. A house-bound elderly couple with a range of health problems are going to need their home to be warmer and for longer than a young couple next door in an identical house who are out at work all day. Would allowance be made for these and other, sometimes much finer, distinctions before the conclusion is reached that the household is "obviously heating excessively"? Even if the official policy was that such distinctions were meant to be taken into account, in practice the criteria would almost certainly be inadequate for producing fair outcomes.

Evidence that this would be the case is apparent from the way the matter of grants touched on in Bob's post is handled in practice.

A family close to me was judged eligible for both boiler and insulation grants. Four different heating companies came to assess the present boiler situation, hoping no doubt that it would be a matter of a simple combi swap. However, when they discovered that there was a 40-year-old floor-standing conventional boiler on a one-pipe system (Worcester will issue no warranty on a combi fitted to a one-pipe system) they all fled, uttering transparently insincere promises that they would be in touch soon with a start-date.

None of them ever got back in touch. So a vulnerable household, arguably in greater need of a central heating upgrade than most, was summarily abandoned by a system that was conceived in the first place expressly to provide for such vulnerable persons' needs.

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

This does show the problem that whenever anyone makes a sensible suggestion there will be a bunch of people wanting to pick holes in it with exceptional cases as thought they were the norm. The targets are precisely the people who are not ill but heat every room in the house all day when they only actually occupy one room. Huge numbers of central heating systems do not have a zone valve to shut off upstairs heating and the occupants are too dumb or lazy to at least cover the radiator with a blanket to reduce heat loss.
I too am in a chalet bungalow on an exposed hill not a cosy valley and the small woodburner has got the living room up to 16C (now 2pm) as the weather is mild. The chimney is internal so the dining room behind it has got up to 9C. The bedroom is at 8C again because it is nice weather and it gets morning sun. If it is going to be a frosty night I sometimes sleep with the window closed – surely everyone has hear of duvets by now. For 60 years we have only ever heated the living room and sometimes kitchen and just avoid lazing around in cold rooms.

So there are plenty of things people can be educated about that will reduce their heating costs, cost them nothing or very little and save them enough to make bigger improvements later on. A very small number of people are genuinely short of money for heating who should be properly supported but most are just prioritising beer, cigs, holidays, fashion, streaming video etc.

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi, well if I wish to excessively heat my home, providing that I'm paying the fuel bill, I don't see how anyone has any right to stop me. You might as well say that a long distance drive that you wish or need to make, will not be allowed because it will take you over your fuel quota. Some people do like it hot, but I am not one of them, but when my daughter and grandchildren come to see me, I normally have to notch the heating up a bit, because they feel the cold more.

Regards Nick.

[Peter G. ShawParticipant @peterg-shaw75338]

Bazyle,

I quite agree that there are people prioritising the wrong stuff, but that's their problem is it not? They will just have to learn to suck it up.

But, up to, I think about six or seven years ago, I too didn't bother too much about the cold. Unfortunately, I suffered what was described as a mild heart attack, and during the rehabilitation period a few weeks later, it was explained that one of the drugs I'm now on can cause the extremities to become/feel cold. And as already mentioned, I'm also now a cancer patient so I'm on yet another drug. Now I'm not too sure when it started, but if the room temperature in our dining room drops to 70 degrees F, I can immediately tell, and I do feel cold. I can, and do, put on an extra jumper. Sometimes I use a hot water bottle in bed. It has to be said that getting the bedroom temperature right is actually quite difficult – the storage heater can be too much, even on minimum, and I do sometimes have to open the window. I don't know for certain, but I suspect that my internal body temperature control isn't working as well as it might.

But, to use a much hackneyed, and horrible phrase, at the end of the day, I am not going to spend thousands of pounds on reducing heat loss when I almost certainly will not financially benefit from it.

Cheers,

Peter G. Shaw

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Nicholas Farr on 08/04/2022 15:23:12:

Hi, well if I wish to excessively heat my home, providing that I'm paying the fuel bill, I don't see how anyone has any right to stop me.

…

In times of shortage, governments often act to control consumption.

As a child in Malta I remember water was only available for a fixed time each day, and during Mr Heath's time UK electricity was time managed by disconnecting whole areas. He also closed down the major industrial consumers.

In happier times hosepipe bans aren't unusual.

The UK had petrol and food rationing during and long after WW2. Petrol was rationed again during the Suez Crisis, and we came close in 1973 – coupons were printed and garages told how to apply them. Fortunately wasn't necessary. The government will have had a contingency plan ready had the last fuel shortage persisted, and they did activate the system whereby certain garages only served priority services.

When these things are necessary for the greater good it will happen. The first duty of the state is to protect it's citizens. I'd rather police, fire, ambulances, food hauliers and other essential services got petrol before me because that's in the majorities best interest, and mine. Rich folk keen to exercise their privileges should remember society is only 3 square meals away from chaos, and that they'll be first up against the wall when the revolution comes!

Dave

[Bill PhinnParticipant @billphinn90025]

Posted by Bazyle on 08/04/2022 14:38:31:

This does show the problem that whenever anyone makes a sensible suggestion there will be a bunch of people wanting to pick holes in it with exceptional cases as thought they were the norm.

I'm sorry to see you misconstrued my point, which was that not just the exceptional cases but many other cases besides may well be ill served by a system that is unlikely in practice to be capable of making even gross distinctions between different households' circumstances.

Because of this I do not share your apparent conviction that no-one will find themselves unfairly targeted by the kind of policy you propose, and therefore I cannot endorse your suggestion as a sensible one.

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi Dave (SOD), yes I'm well aware of the need for rationing when needs must, but these are exceptions not the rule. i can't remember any of the rationing during WWII, but I believe there was still some in force when I was born from what my parents told me. I can remember the motor fuel rationing and still have the ration book that came with my van I bought when I was doing my mobile Disco, but the treat was over by then.

I also remember the power cuts due to industrial action and these varied at which time of the day you got them on a rotational system, but you were not limited to how much power you could use when the electricity was on. Some days when I got to work the power was off and everyone was standing around busy doing nothing and the next day it would be turned off mid morning or afternoon, where you could do work that didn't need electricity. I like most decent people will understand, accept and comply to these exceptions as I have done with the Covid 19 situation.

Regards Nick.

[Bob Unitt 1Participant @bobunitt1]

Posted by Dave Halford on 08/04/2022 12:00:08:Bob,

My Grandmother had the same roof hot, as hell in summer and frozen solid in winter.

Having had a big ceiling re plaster boarded properly when all the joint tape fell off it might be possible to fit Batts from the inside and re board and plaster. DIY apart from plastering, but not for the over 70's and pretty messy but a damn sight cheaper than having the roof off.

I've thought about that, but my ceilings are in really good condition, unlikely to fall off. A builder I discussed it with said I should be aware that filling that space could cause damp problems on the underside of the actual roof structure and joists.

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