Is it just me?

[jason udallParticipant @jasonudall57142]

Re.OMG….like I said quoted lifespan.
In another life work with family history ..cds and esp dvd are not recomended for archive..current recomend acid free paper and laser print…what to do with photos still no good answer…home printed fade..wet process colour fade…
Current thinking is burn copy of cd every ten years..and check read every year.
There are programmes that give quality of recording assesment which can be used to check for deterioration of the media.

I am also informed clay tablets last quite well…

[Harold Hall 1Participant @haroldhall1]

Thanks Andrew for your explanations and must admit I had not taken into consideration that a single CNC setup could carry out what would need many setups if done manually. I still feel that for the workshop owner who wishes to take the CNC route some manual experience would be preferable. In industry a newcomer to the process would surely have some more experienced programmers to guide him or her.

As to the emergency stop I suppose it is my lifetime in control systems that condition me to ask this question. I assume it is a nice large button somewhere rather than a key on the key board and stopping the motions as well as the cutter drive motor.

Whilst involved in large paper making machines and newspaper presses stop circuits were always done using relays as electronics could not be made fail safe, other than using triplicate systems, very expensive. I have seen in the magazines stop buttons feeding electronic controls being normally open. What happens, I ask, if a wire to it becomes loose or the contacts become dirty, you cannot stop the machine. In a typical newspaper press I have known there to be over 500 closed contacts in a series circuit, any failed contact or connection will then stop the machine. It is almost always better for a machine to stop, or not start, without operator action than to not stop when a stop button is pressed, especially is someone's arm is being drawn into the machine.

I agree John, there is a lot of satisfaction in producing a control program and seeing it working when the button is eventually pressed. A point I tried to make earlier relating to using CNC for the clock I made.

I think now I should fade out of the picture, nice to have been involved and thanks to all who have been reading my comments over recent years. See here **LINK** I will though continue to read the threads for another week or two.

Harold

[Anonymous]

Posted by Harold Hall 1 on 16/09/2013 09:38:25:

As to the emergency stop I suppose it is my lifetime in control systems that condition me to ask this question. I assume it is a nice large button somewhere rather than a key on the key board and stopping the motions as well as the cutter drive motor.

Yep, big red button on the control cabinet, kills power to all motors, axes and spindle. It's independent of the control software, purely electrical. Push to activate, twist to reset, exactly the same as my industrial lathe.

Andrew

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

We often see on forums people with brand new machine that won't start turning out to be the interlocks. Got the job of putting a bulb across each on my todo list.

Following on CNC and manual experience. I wonder how many CAD proficient engineering graduates nowadays know how to sharpen a pencil – without an internet connected electronic sharpener anyway. Electronics graduates who can program PLA logic devices have no idea how to etch a real circuit board, and programming graduates seldom know any machine code. I used to ask interviewees to explain how a superhet worked (few new) but now it's 'which Indian software house would you use to programme the digital filter'.

[WALLACEParticipant @wallace]

There’s bound to be a limited number of projects you can publish without repeating yourself if bound by the ‘Model Engineer Workshop’ title with the emphasis pretty much on the average lathe and mill set up.

This probably isn’t an issue to those new to the magazine but might be to those who have subscribed over many years and can remember a similar project (s) from before. Long time subscribers have also probably progressed to being reasonably competent and find the more basic articles uninteresting.
To me, the obvious solution would be to introduce new ways of working and machine tools that weren’t readily available 10 – 15 years ago, newer technology might get younger, more ‘techy savvy’ people into the hobby as well.

Something like linking a PC to a stepper motor to move the table of a milling machine perhaps ?
Just think of all the advantages !

W.

Edited By WALLACE on 16/09/2013 15:01:15

[Sub MandrelParticipant @submandrel]

There's lots of basic stuff that has (to my memory, as Ive read about 90%+ of MEW's):

Mode of action of different cutting tools.

The chemistry behind hardening and tempering.

Making your own case hardening compounds.

Surface treatments for metals, including priming and painting.

Tolerances, accuracy and precision. Getting them in proportion.

How to select and specify parts: ball bearings, bushes, drive belts, fixings etc.

Basic mechanical theory – levers, pulleys etc.

Useful mechanisms and movements.

The properties of materials – and using these to move beyond 'if it looks right it probably is right'.

How to get the best out of third party parts (laser jet/water jet/flame cut/castings etc.)

Making patterns and working with a foundry

Improve your engineering drawings

From idea to design. Tips on how to turn an idea into reality.

Helicoils

Stud removal methods

O rings and their applications

Ultrasonic cleaning

Making special purpose toolbits, including taps and dies

MMA welding – from beginner to expert

Single part articles of obsolete machines or those rarely found in an amateur workshop:

• Planer
• Jig borer
• surface grinder
• cylindrical grinder
• superfinishing hone
• Capstan lathes

Tackling various tricky or unusual car/motorbike/round the house jobs:

• Adjusting a recirculating ball steering box
• Repairing a five-lever lock
• Fixing a lawnmower

Sharpening tools other than drills and endmills

Understanding LED lighting

Workshop photography

Working sheet metal (a subject that ME and MEW assiduoslly avoid tackilng in any detail!)

Metal spinning.

I could go on, but doesn't that list make you think?

Neil

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

Harold Hall's point about readability of CDs in a few years time is valid.

1) Home burned CDs seem to degrade after a few years.

2) In ten years time will there be any machines capable of reading, let alone burning, CDs.?

(How many of us have a reader for 5.25 inch floppy discs?)

Tried buying a VHS recorder lately?

Strangely, despite what we urged to buy, magnetic tape is far longer lived than CD or DVD.

In any case even BluRay will soon be obsolete.

Since we can still read books printed much more than a century ago, maybe paper based records are the thing to keep?

With regard to those who not buy the mag for the advertising.

Dare I suggest that without the ads, there would be NO mag?

I suspect that the advertisers pay for most of the labour, material and overheads in producing and distributing the magazine.

Our subscriptions probably just make up some of the the difference between costs and profit.

It is a three way team effort, a bit like a tripod.

Publishers need people to buy the mag to keep their jobs.

Advertisers need people to read the mag, see their ad., and buy their product, to keep their jobs.

Readers need the mag to show them items of interest, commercial or amateur made, and aware of products that they might wish to buy, to pursue their hobby.

Eliminate one leg, and the whole edifice collapses.

Howard

[Grizzly bearParticipant @grizzlybear]

Hi Stub Mandrel,

I like your list, it appeals to me. A good foundation, that could be built on.

Talking of repairs, (You can tell I'm getting on) the younger people, if it fails to work, bin it. No questions asked. Got two grown up daughters, seen it in action. There are no doubt exceptions.

Regards, Bear..

PS. I'm glad the " Enter" key works, it does make life easier.

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

Sometime, as Model Eengineers, we can make a repair that is better than the original (probably not intended to last too long) version.

Everything seems built down to a cost, rather than up to a standard.

Admittedly, engines are better made and of superior materials compared to the 40s, but can't really say that of the bodywork and accessories on modern cars.

Along with Industrial Archeologists and other Preservationists, Model Engineers are a reservoir of skills that will otherwise be lost for ever.

You won't find a new engine for a broken down boat in the middle of the Atlantic, but be grateful for an Engineer who knows how to, and can, make it operational again.

[Tony JeffreeParticipant @tonyjeffree56510]

Posted by Harold Hall 1 on 09/09/2013 14:11:43:

For me, I do not see any benefit in using CNC in my workshop as almost all tasks amount to time (a few minutes to perhaps an hour) deciding how to set up the operation and doing this and then time to carry out the machining, when, in quick time, it is done.

One exception would be the crossing out the wheels on the clock I made. Also, producing the main frames and other odd shaped parts. If though I had had the facility and used it, would I have gained the same lever of satisfaction, the answer is "no way"

Harold

Harold –

Clockmaking was actually the reason I got into CNC in the first place – and hopefully at some point will again become one of the reasons that I still use CNC (been too busy playing with the machines to have any time to make the clocks), so your comments are interesting.

To me, there is no particular virtue in doing repetetive tasks, such as cutting gear teeth, crossing out wheels, cutting clock frames, by hand; it is simply tedious work that is getting in the way of the parts of the job that give me real satisfaction – the final finishing/polishing and getting the clock to run. If I can find ways of making the tedious bits go away, then all well and good; you also get the benefit of actually being able to cut wheels that have an integral number of teeth, and the right tooth count, if you go the CNC route, which is a considerable attraction to me – if I never use a manual dividing head again, it will be far too soon.

The finish you get with CNC is, in any case, a long way from the kind of finish that you would like to see on a clock – so there is plenty of scope for satisfaction gained by the use of elbow-grease to get a crisp, poliched finish that you can see your face in, there if that is what floats your boat.

CNC is just another workshop tool as far as I am concerned; I use it when the use is convenient and appropriate, and I use manual methods when they are appropriate/convenient. I have a major confession to make on that front – my CNC converted ML7 spends much more of its time doing manual operations than CNC; however, the CNC facility is there for when it is needed (cutting threads and tapers; repetition work such as matching clock pillars would be a good clockmaking use too).

Regards,

Tony

[Anonymous]

Posted by Bazyle on 16/09/2013 12:29:13:

We often see on forums people with brand new machine that won't start turning out to be the interlocks. Got the job of putting a bulb across each on my todo list.

Following on CNC and manual experience. I wonder how many CAD proficient engineering graduates nowadays know how to sharpen a pencil – without an internet connected electronic sharpener anyway. Electronics graduates who can program PLA logic devices have no idea how to etch a real circuit board, and programming graduates seldom know any machine code. I used to ask interviewees to explain how a superhet worked (few new) but now it's 'which Indian software house would you use to programme the digital filter'.

Pencil? What's one of those?

Wow, PLAs, that takes me back, haven't used one of those for 25 years plus. It's all FPGAs now, along with embedded processor cores and memory. Superhets are easy, to sort the men from the boys ask about a Wadley loop.

Andrew

[Anonymous]

Posted by WALLACE on 16/09/2013 14:59:06:

Something like linking a PC to a stepper motor to move the table of a milling machine perhaps ? Just think of all the advantages !

Now there's an idea! On second thoughts though I can't see it ever being accepted.

Andrew

[Anonymous]

Posted by Howard Lewis on 16/09/2013 16:35:56:

Admittedly, engines are better made and of superior materials compared to the 40s, but can't really say that of the bodywork and accessories on modern cars.

Oh, I don't know, at least cars don't come pre-rusted these days. And one doesn't approach each MOT in trepidation in case the sills need welding yet again.

Andrew

[Paul BarrettParticipant @paulbarrett57424]

Posted by Andrew Johnston on 16/09/2013 21:40:09:

Posted by Bazyle on 16/09/2013 12:29:13:

Pencil? What's one of those?

Hand help, portable, comunication inscriber = Pencil

[WALLACEParticipant @wallace]

I like Neil’s suggestions too !

How about asking Dave the Editor to regularly publish a list of ‘desired’ articles in the mag ? Suggestions could come from this forum or even letters so those without a pc are included.

And make it clear to liase with him first to make sure two or more people don’t write about the same thing….

W.

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

After reading about the life expectancy of discs, for storage, what is the life of a USB flash drive/memory stick? Ian S C

[Diane CarneyModerator @dianecarney30678]

Nowhere near as long a a hand-held mobile graphite communicator mark.

[Sub MandrelParticipant @submandrel]

> After reading about the life expectancy of discs, for storage, what is the life of a USB flash drive/memory stick? Ian S C

Interesting question. EEPROMS are supposed to last about 16 years, but the fact that my BBC micro still works (some fo the aftermarket software is on EEPROM). Rarely used, but being able to switch on, type 'word' and beiina working word processor within five se3conds still makes me smug

For me my storage solution is multiple external hard drives. When one gets flaky, I'll replace it. 500 GB appears more than enough fro music and photos, the rest takes up very little space.

Neil

[Carl Wilson 4Participant @carlwilson4]

Hello all,

I have just stumbled across this thread after having commented on the content of ME on another part of this site. Stub Mandrel's list of ideas for content in MEW chimes with what I said about ME. I've also had copies of MEW on an ad hoc basis and I agree with the comments written here about it. Similar to my own views on ME. Far too many long drawn out constructional articles that are padded out and of little interest to most.

ME should be retitled to something along the lines of "Large Scale Railway Modeller"; there is more to engineering than steam and railways. I have found though that there is a great deal of hard core resistance to any sort of change and a lot of it emanates from here.

Happy Hogmanay to one and all.

[Graham Waterworth 1Participant @grahamwaterworth1]

I have had it with MEW and 'CNC in the (Model Engineers' ) Workshop has been the final nail in the coffin.

Never have I read so much waffle over so many pages in so many issues as this, 10 parts so far and no sign of any worthwhile information. How can anybody justify producing two holes and an arc over 50 pages.

I have been teaching CNC setting and programming for over 25 years and from my experience this article could have been completed in a fraction of the time and space. The sample code is also long winded and flawed to match the rest of the article.

 

Edited By JasonB on 29/01/2014 07:18:28

[HowiParticipant @howi]

Regarding life expectancy of USB memory sticks (Ian s c)

think of them as a modern floppy disc!!!

when I worked in IT, if I had a pound for every one that went belly up, I would be worth a fortune.

I always advised using them as a 'transport device' only – ie moving files from one computer to another

do not work directly on files on the USB stick.

do not store important files on USB memory sticks or any memory sticks for that matter.

when they go belly up, they are more often than not, unrecoverable.

[frank brownParticipant @frankbrown22225]

Wide ranging discussion! I have never liked "Model Engineering Workshop", make me think of people who are fascinated with small scale (16mm to the foot) wooden buildings. Something like " Home engineering", or "the Amateur Machinist" would seem better.

Scope of articles, as mentioned perhaps a one page introduction to a different machine, as in VBM, VTL, shaper, slotter. . . every month with a piccy of standard model, just to increase every ones knowledge.

Another specialized monthly topic , could be single phase motors, three phase motors, motor protection, safety .. i.e. elements of electrics that will allow some one with an engineering background to be able to work on motors safely

A bit of three phase theory especially with respect to converters, types faults finding.

As for CAD/CAM, there seem to be two types of article, one is actually converting a machine to CAM, endless drawings of bits of Ali with complex hole patterns, to mount step motor X to the machine Y. Very useful if this is what you want to do, but to the rest of us a bit boring. The other is the beginners, sort of software approach, with screen shots and descriptions. I think that to learn software, you have to do it, just don't practise on some thing valuable.

Personally, I would like a partially mechanised process, so you could set depth of cut and engage a feed, safe in the knowledge that the machine would switch off in time, and not to rely on mechanical stops which would stall/break the machine. Perhaps even a "near to the end of cut" buzzer, so you can return to the machine and manually disengage the feed .

As a foot note, I do not believe that many "proper" computer controlled machines use Windows products, Siemans developed their own version because of its unreliability.

I took the ME for 7 years in the 80s and got fed up with it, because of the very high steam loco content. Like so many things in life, the MEW is not what I really want, but its the best I can get!

Frank

[Speedy Builder5Participant @speedybuilder5]

Change of direction. Have you noticed the number of times "teh" crops up instead of "the" in this forum. I can't believe that we all make that typo and have wondered if its teh spell checker ? When you look at the querty keyboard, it would be very difficult to type the 'e' before the 'h', or is there some part of the brain which makes us race ahead?

BobH

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

It's not difficult to tpye anythign befoer anything

[speelwerkParticipant @speelwerk]

As me, I think most people have had no blind typing training and just use 2 fingers. When writing with a pen I am more concentrated in spelling the words correctly, When typing I read it back and than you very easily does not notice such mistakes. More often than not when I read a already send mail I see the mistakes I made. Niko.

[Author]

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