Is it just me?

[Sub MandrelParticipant @submandrel]

Stylewise, I prefer a combination of

• Most of the detail but not assuming a complete beginner.
• Interspersed inclusions of interesting off topic material (Keith Wilson, LBSC)

But, I would add that a lot of the appeal is reading things in different voices.

the one thing that does make me skip are descriptions of machining operations that are highly repetetive or include lots of dimensions that can all be garnered from the drawings. You don't need to say use a 1/4" reamer to make a 1/4" hole for a 1/4" shaft…

Goold description explains the whys and wherefores whle passing on useful tips and interesting information(e.g. "don't drill to close to final size so a reamer has enough material to cut and doesn't rub" or "smooth power with no surges was essential in a cotton mill, hence the massive flywheel on this model&quot.

It is the extra 'chit chat' and differnet perspectives that give interest – otherwise there would only need to be one article on each component or maching operation, ever.

A good example of what happens if there are too few 'voices' are the 'World of Model Engineering' specials, which pretty much followed a standard formula, most of each annual issue was the same aouthor saying the same things about the same topics. Probably what was needed when aimed at attracting new people to the hobby, but not a good idea to read them all in sequence!

Neil

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

This makes VERY depressing reading.

Am I the ONLY grumpy old man who HASN'T cancelled his subscription?

Like all the others here, not EVERY thing, in EVERY issue attracts me.

I can see the advantages that CNC provides, but do not feel that I need them.

Similarly, I am not anxious to make a Stepperhead lathe, (lack of need, cash, perceived skill, and courage), although it is obviously a marvellously versatile machine, and would be a joy to own and use.

Having a Mill/Drill (Wish that I had the space for a knee type Universal Mill!) I spent little time on the articles about making a vertical slide.

My hobby tends to be making tools, for a particular purpose, but accept that not many others are of a like mind.

Perhaps, I am a general Engineer rather than a REAL Model Engineer, but that does not prevent me being in awe of the work produced by others, with their locos, i.c engines, clocks or traction engines. (now who have I left out?). Their skill, patience and innovation stagger me, although I can only WISH to equal them.

Sometimes, looking through a back issue, there is an article which sends me out into the workshop, because "That might come in handy", or "Wonder if I could make one of those?"

So, I do not dismiss or denigrate someones else's work and views, just because they are not the same as mine.

I just let and let live, and enjoy my hobby without carping about others. Making swarf and an end product gives much more pleasure; even more, if actually works as intended!

Remember the old adage " Before criticising another man; walk a mile in his shoes".

Come on fellas, there must be better things to discuss in the Forum than how dischuffed we all are with everything and everyone around us.

Howard

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Howard

What a marvellous concise post.

All I can say is that if you walk a mile in all the whingers shoes on here you will be at Aberdeen with a very good selection of shoes.

John S.

[Anonymous]

Posted by Howard Lewis on 14/09/2013 19:04:47:

Am I the ONLY grumpy old man who HASN'T cancelled his subscription?

Probably. I take both ME and MEW, and haven't cancelled either subscription; but I'm not old and (mostly) not grumpy.

Andrew

[WALLACEParticipant @wallace]

Strangely enough, I appear to have done the opposite and canceled my subscription to ME and carried on with MEW !
Sure, there are some articles of more interest than others but if it is well written (and most are) then there’s usually something new to learn.
I actually thought ‘great – two from Harold’ in the last edition as I find anything by him absoltely clear on the technique and pitfalls of machining an item which even if I do not want to make, can certainly be applied to other items I do.
However – to the winging -I do think the magazine has suffered a bit from ‘over commercialisation’ recently, certainly there are more adverts in between the features than the earlier ones and the product reviews and, I hate to say it, the editor’s page have tuned into little more than further advertisements which seems a shame. ME seems to me to suffer from padding – reviews of traction engine ralies from many months ago I can do without – and others that seem to go on for ever – usually ‘to be continued in issue 378235 to be published in 4 years time’. I hate to think how many decades the propossed universal grinder series will take before completion.
WRT to CNC I can’t help wondering if similar moans were heard when Maudsley (?) introduced the first screw cutting lathe
It must have taken all the skill and fun out of hand chasing a thread, never mind that it was a lot more accurate. I really can’t see a great deal of difference between chosing a set of change wheels or writting lines of G code _ both are using technology of albeit vastly varying degrees of complexity to give another weapon in the arsenal of machine tools used to coerce that lump of metal into the finished item. Personally, I can’t wait to bolt on the stepper motors and watch the mill move all by itself (although arguably it does that already with the power feed… ..) so the more on CNC the better !

WALLACE.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by WALLACE on 15/09/2013 06:09:17:

I really can't see a great deal of difference between chosing a set of change wheels or writting lines of G code _

WALLACE.

.

Very well put, Sir !!

MichaelG.

[jason udallParticipant @jasonudall57142]

As I have said before. Much of the griping is coincedent with subs rises .archive access changes…facebook ….
The actual content wasn’t the issue for me (or wasn’t without reading the archive and
suffering by comparison).. but taken together…I get a bad feeling about it all.
Sorry to appear whiney but there you go.

As to cnc etc… no problem at all with almost any topic/technique covered but again maybe not too many in a edition or row..we all seem aware that content comes from contribution but order things appear is editing…just like a best of or 100years of steam..maybe a special? ..if it sells then there you are..

[Gordon WassParticipant @gordonwass]

It's not all about moaning and content. Money is getting scarce for some, and of all the things that could be cut magazine subs. are a first choice, for me anyway. I will miss them, but would miss beer more. Grumpy ? me a Yorkshireman living in Aberdeenshire.

[Andrew EvansParticipant @andrewevans67134]

Reading all these opinions about ME and MEW and having a think about what people are doing it begs the question:

Is a traditional printed magazine still the best medium for the sort of content that ME and MEW should be publishing?

its clear that we have a huge range of interests – can a single printed magazine cover that variety in any sort of depth? Is the end result a massive compromise that satisfies no-one ?

some of us are experts and want expert level content, some of us are beginners and need "getting started" tutorials

some of us have no interest in CNC, others have a complete CNC workshop

Some people are mad about locos, others traction engines, hot air engines, tool making while many others need the engineering skills for other hobbies like bike restoration or need the skills as part of their business.

Is a web site only version the way forward? Allow people to publish the articles they want without a heavy editorial process. Allow readers to read what they want without the other content getting in the way. Forums replace 'scribe a line' , advertising still happens but is targeted to the user. I am not talking about the current digital version that is simply a copy of the magazine but a total reinvention of the format to bring it bang up to date and inspire a whole new generation of home shop engineers.

[jason udallParticipant @jasonudall57142]

Andrew…this very forum. . And many of individual users websites.

[JoParticipant @jo]

Posted by Andrew Evans on 15/09/2013 10:41:05:

Is a web site only version the way forward? Allow people to publish the articles they want without a heavy editorial process. Allow readers to read what they want without the other content getting in the way. Forums replace 'scribe a line' , advertising still happens but is targeted to the user. I am not talking about the current digital version that is simply a copy of the magazine but a total reinvention of the format to bring it bang up to date and inspire a whole new generation of home shop engineers.

I tend to disagree yes forums like this one do replace "scribe a line" but other forums do full blown articales and builds of both models and tools, with the advantage that you can interact with the author. And whlist there are commercial forums with horrible adverts all over the place (HMEM), there are still a great many private ones (MECH, MEM, MadModder) which don't. I think what is out of date is charging for acess to on line content.

Jo

[NJHParticipant @njh]

Posted by WALLACE on 15/09/2013 06:09:17:

I really can't see a great deal of difference between chosing a set of change wheels or writting lines of G code _

WALLACE.

.

    |Very well put, Sir !!

    |MichaelG.

Michael

Well I suppose that would depend on whether or not you have access to CNC equipment! If not it's about as useful as a recipe for a roast dinner ( followed by baked Alaska maybe ) , without an oven !

N

Edited By NJH on 15/09/2013 11:09:11

[MICHAEL WILLIAMSParticipant @michaelwilliams41215]

Web ring – all personal websites and a hub site for indexes , news and searches .

MikeW

[MICHAEL WILLIAMSParticipant @michaelwilliams41215]

//

Edited By MICHAEL WILLIAMS on 15/09/2013 11:59:27

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

ME is unique in printed form in still being useful and sought after 40 years after printing because of the documented build articles. Everyone assumes someone else will archive the electronic data. but it doesn't happen. 5 minutes after MyTime Media go bankrupt this site and all it's information will disappear for ever.

Just recently BT pulled the plug on all their Customers stored photos – even though it had been an integral part of their advertising. They provided a new service at a hidden cost of about £12pa but did not transfer peoples archive. Yahooo mail puls the plug on little used email accounts. Geocities vapourised with phenomenal amounts of data a few years ago. And so on.

Since 1980 the cost of a small lathe has dropped to about 1/10th. The cover price of ME is about the same in real terms (40p 1979, 320p now) . Has the savings from technical advances in printing been used up in better quality printing? But there are 3 times the number of titles now to dilute sales and advertising revenue.

[peter walton 1Participant @peterwalton1]

Sometimes I just wonder what people are expecting in a magzine.

Are they expecting to learn something new and exciting every time, they will always then be disapointed.

For myself I read the magazine always with a'pinch of salt' in that I may not realy be interested in the subject but subconsciously will have stored snippets of information which hopefully will surface when needed.

As to CNC, I like to read items on this subject as I am still learning about the subject, I have even CNC'd my small mill, not that I have done all that much with it. I still have to conquor the art of material holding( good subject fot the mag) as I find that my knowledge is lacking in this respect as the amount of trashed jobs will testify.

Perhaps its time for the detractors to offer their services and actuall y produce some articles they would like.

Peter

[jason udallParticipant @jasonudall57142]

What are people expecting…

???
Well I don’t buy it for the advertising or the soft absorbant paper

[Harold Hall 1Participant @haroldhall1]

Andrew's suggestion that a digital only magazine is interesting and could revolutionise contributing with no need to go through an editor, or ask approval. However, how long would they be available as there are many reasons why they may not. As Bazyle says, the details could easily disappear with the failure of the company holding it at the time. Paper copies are still available of the magazine published some 100 years ago and with careful storage would be in another 100. OK, they would unlikely be very relevant but would be interesting historically.

At a much lower level I often wonder what will eventually happen to my website, and with that in mind have considered offering it on a DVD but then who will be able to use DVD in say 20 years time, people will probably say, what is a DVD. I am though reluctant to make the offer as the site is still being developed but then it may become too late.

I find Peter's comments regarding CNC interesting as I have always considered that it would be difficult, but not impossible, if not dangerous, to use a CNC without learning the basics manually. With a manual machine you can stop winding the handle immediately should a problem arise, or even better still, just before it gets out of hand. Does a CNC control system have an emergency stop button.

With regard to your suggestion for an article on workpiece holding I have done a number but if I did another it would probably be considered as unnecessary repetition. All is not lost though as you can see the article on my website here **LINK**

Also, my latest addition may be of help. I have started a gallery of machine setups and the first is setups using the angle plate. See here for this **LINK**

Incidentally, how soon is too soon for a repeat article. My article on updating a drilling vice which had a large part in starting this thread was in issue 110 (2005) and was actually part of a series on milling on the lathe. Its purpose, primarily, to illustrate just what could be achieved if only a lathe were available.

Harold

[jason udallParticipant @jasonudall57142]

Harold..dvd
…already “obsolete”…worse still 10 years not 100 and I would expect the file format to be superceded. .
Wonder if mag.currently printed on acidfree archive paper and light stable inks….I would expect the 100 year old ME to outlast current prints

[Gone AwayParticipant @goneaway]

Posted by Harold Hall 1 on 15/09/2013 17:17:19:

At a much lower level I often wonder what will eventually happen to my website, and with that in mind have considered offering it on a DVD but then who will be able to use DVD in say 20 years time, people will probably say, what is a DVD.

Even those that do know may not be able to read their copies – burnt DVDs and CDs are not particularly archival.

[jason udallParticipant @jasonudall57142]

When recordable cd first came to market kodak quoted 70years for gold cd’s

[Anonymous]

I've had paid for CDROMs go totally unreadable after a few years.The seller didn't seem very concerned, but did offer to sell me the data again; so I don't use him anymore.

The problem with transferring the magazines to the internet, is that the publisher is trying to make money, so they would have to charge for access. Personally I wouldn't pay. If I pay for the paper magazine I can refer to it any time I want. If I've paid for internet access it can disappear, not be available, change because the management team has changed, and so is ephemeral.

Harold: CNC machines have an emergency stop button, the same as manual machines. As far as I'm aware industry doesn't normally bother with manual experience before starting on CNC. I'm also a member of 'CNCZone', and I get the impression that in the US it is fairly common for hobbyists to start straight off with CNC, rather than bother with manual machines. I would say that workholding and sequencing of operations on a CNC mill is subtly different to that on a manual mill, and can require rather more thought beforehand if one is not going to have to use several separate machining sequences.

Regards,

Andrew

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Don't care how many ideas are bandied about if you get 20 people in a room and ask for ideas you will get twenty different replies.

It's human nature that we are different. For some it's the journey and others its the reward.

CNC is a subject all of it's own and you will even get 20 people who agree about using CNC not agreeing how to do a certain job. Often working out how to do a job can be far more rewarding that doing it on manual machines when it all comes off right.

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi, while reading John's post, it reminds me of then number of times, especaily in my previous job, I've heard someone say; "well I wouldn't have done it like that" to which I reply "well you didn't do it, I did" that normally shut them up.

Regards Nick.

[Gone AwayParticipant @goneaway]

Posted by jason udall on 15/09/2013 19:09:14:
When recordable cd first came to market kodak quoted 70years for gold cd's

…. based on accelerated testing (at least I don't think they were testing since the 1920's ) which has been largely discredited since.

Current predictions are an eye-opener

[Author]

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