Is it just me?

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

As in life it's all swings and roundabouts for any industry. There is a traditional "flat earth" group who follow the old ways, focussed to a great extent on locos but I believe there is still a future for the hobby within the newer technologies.

These new 3d printers are going to produce any shape of casting you want

Digital is giving us wonderful accuracy on old but capable machinery

Solar is constantly improving, not just electric solar but those water boiling vacuum tubes are up to around 75watts for a 0.5metre flourescent tube sized unit

(so steam power may well make a comeback!)

The hobby is diversifying… life trundles onwards

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

Something to consider is that while a specific article is of no interest to you today does not mean that in 1 – 10 years time you won’t have a need for xxx tool and be looking through the index for relevant articles. I certainly keep doing this.

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

One little invention can change everything, catching peoples imagination

Making the first 1cc internal combustion engines revolutionised model making for millions of people

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

The biggest problem for the hobby nowadays is the number of competing industries

You can surf a million sites on the net and build your own e-business for almost any service industry, or build your own new internet idea, or program computers in 200 different languages

You can travel 200 miles a day to visit somewhere

You can watch 1000 channels of junk TV

The choices for an intelligent industrious inquiring mind nowadays, even compared to the 1980s, because of the internet and computers, are truly mind boggling

edit

I converted all my 1980s videos to dvd then put them all on a couple of hard disks

2,000,000megabytes (2terabytes) of TV,  the equivalent to about 500DVDs and documentaries I like are now only a click away

I only watch about 30mins a day, at tea time

Edited By Ady1 on 07/09/2013 12:03:31

[John CoatesParticipant @johncoates48577]

The quality of the content of the articles in MEW is a question that keeps recurring on here.

I became interested in home engineering (lathe, mill, welding) in 2009 as a way of making adaptive spacers and brackets for my motorcycles. Where to go to begin learning was my first hurdle and I found this website and began my subscription to MEW at issue 160. I have since bought all the back issues to #1. I also bought lots of the workshop practice books.

So four year's later what's my position? The magazine feels 'thin' now with little of personal interest. The article on improving milling vices was like deja vue as I'd only recently been reading the back issues which contained the originals. When I want to know how to do something I search my MEW index and on here. On the web there's usually several articles or YouTube videos.

But you can't beat sitting in your favourite armchair with a magazine learning and being stimulated. Unfortunately for me this is my pile of back issues which were much more fatter (as opposed to 'thin&#39 with more numerous articles on a wider variety of subjects. I always feel more satisfied after reading one of those than recent ones. I know a lot of the early content was making tooling that is now so much cheaper to buy and that's maybe where the volume of content came from.

Maybe this will be my last subscription, I don't know. If I look back when it comes up and there has been nothing to interest me for the previous year that will probably be a good indicator it's time to stop.

I don't envy anyone trying to run a paper magazine in this immediate online digital age.

John

[colin hawesParticipant @colinhawes85982]

Having done CNC work,programming,setting,operating, on machining centres and robotic units, my opinion is that CNC has a very limited economic use both in time and cost for model engineering purposes and so there is an excessive emphasis on this subject in MEW. CNC is almost entirely applicable only to rapid batch production which is rarely useful for model and experimental engineering. However there is some interest in the challenge of writing G codes to perform correctly first time.The only other real use for CNC is to produce a profile that is dificult to machine conventionly and that is often due to lack of forethought at the design stage. I have no wish to own a CNC machine for the sort of models I make and I suspect most of you feel the same. So lets have more of the old time secrets and less automatiion. Thats my opinion and I shall stick with it. I do use CAD though, in my hobby. Colin.

[Anonymous]

Colin: You suspect wrong in my case. I have a 4-axis CNC mill in my workshop, and while it was relatively expensive, it is certainly a time saver. I have machined all the spokes for my traction engines on it. Simple parts yes, but I can't imagine many things more boring than standing at a manual mill winding handles to churn out repetitive parts.

I also make a lot of onsies and twosies on my CNC mill. As you correctly say odd profiles are easy on CNC; like the underside of the block on this tube with its double curvature, everything else on the block was machined on a manual mill:

The whole point of CNC is that it gives one the freedom to design and not be limited by what can be easily manually machined. A CNC mill can also be used to make parts that are impossible on the equipment normally found in a ME workshop.

Professionally I design quite a lot of parts that are CNC machined. For one off jigs I usually make the parts myself, for which the CNC mill is good. I get paid to do the design and produce a part quickly, not spend hours twiddling handles. For small batches I normally machine a prototype to check the 3D CAD model and overall assembly and then farm parts out to a 'professional' machine shop. Batch sizes are always small, 5 to 20 maximum.

In contrast to CNC both my ancient surface and cylindrical grinders are driven by flat belts.

Regards,

Andrew

[David ColwillParticipant @davidcolwill19261]

I do feel that the price for the magazine is high enough that I should be able to expect professionally written articles without having to write them myself. I am also suprised that some of the "how to use a 3 jaw chuck" type articles are not put up on this website free. If the management want to encourage newcomers to the hobby then they have enough of a back catalogue of beginners "how to" already written and paid for to keep anyone happy. The things like CNC and the other subjects that can be contentious could be dealt with in the same way. Having seen how much Authors get paid for writing, I am sure that if the editor said that he didn't feel that he could publish the article but would be willing to put it up on this site, then many would be happy with that.

I also think that this is a great site but that it is not used to its best advantage. I would very much like to see it and MEW improve. I still get my copy from my newsagent and as a result feel that I have a right to post on this forum with my various cries for help and also am delighted if I can return the favour.

[Stephen BensonParticipant @stephenbenson75261]

From reading some of the posts lately it seems to me that subscribers effectively join a club so MEW is the club magazine which is also sold in the newsagents and we must lower our expectations accordingly.

Even when I was a subscriber I did not realise this so all I can do now is apologise.

[Harold Hall 1Participant @haroldhall1]

I was pleased to read Stephen that you liked the photograph on the front cover of issue 207 as without doubt it was the most difficult photograph I have taken for the magazine, and that's saying something having now had over 2000 published. Intended for the front cover it did of course need a little more attention.

The problem was the highly polished surface of the main frame acting as a mirror and showing the far end of the photographic studio ( garage). With the camera angled down to look at the clock the portion below the dial was a reflection of the elm base and looked quite good but above the dial, looking at the other end of the garage, was very dark. After much playing around with the two flash lights I eventually realised that the above was the problem.

I decided therefore to place a sheet of MDF behind the camera which improved the situation, but it was still dark. This therefore needed a flash light directed at it also and one was set up slaved to work with the other two. With that done I was very pleased with the outcome.

That was, unfortunately, until I spotted a minor fault with the photograph, immediately after dismantling the set up. I had spent a long time on the task so it remains. This is, you will see immediately above the dial and on the extreme left a small segment which is much lighter. Obviously, I had not placed the MDF panel perfectly and the lighter portion is I think the door of the freezer.

Anyone who would like some more detail on my workshop photography methods can look here, particularly page 2. **LINK**

Harold Hall

[Andrew EvansParticipant @andrewevans67134]

I have no idea why some people get so upset about other engineers owning and using and enjoying CNC machine tools and having articles written about them. If you don't want to own one then don't buy one and if you don't want to read an article about CNC then don't read the article or buy the magazine – what's the problem?

Clearly many people find CNC useful in a home workshop so why denigrate their experience and imply that their knowledge and skills are somehow inferior to your own? That's insulting.

The carping, moaning,whining, 'it was better in my day', 'im better than you', 'the old ways are the best' type comments made by a number of people on this forum can make it depressing to read and are poles apart from the vast majority of posts that are encouraging, helpful and informative.

Stop moaning

[Gordon WassParticipant @gordonwass]

I don't get upset because some people own, use ,and write about CNC machines. I do not get upset because people like drawing in CAD and reading CAD drawings. People can do whatever they like. I do get upset ( well a little bit ) when I am called a Luddite or Flat Earther , especially by people who do not understand the terms, just because I do not.

[Stephen BensonParticipant @stephenbenson75261]

I have worked with CNC most of my adult life when I ran a engineering company making bespoke components for the electronics industry and I used CNC and Cad/Cam to deskill lots of operations so lower paid workers could perform them. This was solely in an effort to compete with foreign competition but in my workshop I want learn the skills used before CNC this requires patience and long hours at the bench but the you would have to chip the smile off my face with a chisel when it comes right.

CNC is a childs play compared to that call me a Luddite if you wish, but I know better

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

I was on a long road trip yesterday and had time to think about this a lot.

Now these are just my views on the subject, personal and not as a moderator or in any way connected to MTM.

All these remarks are based on MEW but some could apply to ME.

The hobby as a whole is dwindling, that's a fact caused by the deaths of the older generation and the younger generation having far more choice what to do with their time.

At one time there were just one main mag for the country, ME, we now have 3 which is bound to dilute the reader base.

Personally I feel the title of the mag is incorrect IF we want to generate new readers.

Model Engineers Workshop smacks that the workshop is there to support the building of models, so by rote if you don't build models the mag is not for you.

Most of my friends have workshops, decent ones as well but NONE build models, they are all there to support another hobby. We need a balanced content but if we are going to attract new users then CNC must be here to stay as it's a part of the future.

Over on CNC zone they have 312,000 members, that gives an idea of the scale of things. For many CNC has now become their hobby. However I'm not saying go full CNC but it needs to be part of the mag.

In my book the Yanks have it right calling their mag Home Shop Machinist, which as the title says anyone with a home shop.

Ok we have the usual band of advertisers in the mag and on the forum but many parts are sold by other outlets like Machine mart, Seeley etc I know MM advertise in the mags but last few times I was in one of their store I made it a point to talk to some of the punters.

Most were motor trade or hobby motor trade or similar, so far no one I have spoken to had heard of MEW and to be honest many looked down their noses when the word Model was mentioned.

When I explained what the mag was about though they were interested. This is a lost opportunity.

[Alan JacksonParticipant @alanjackson47790]

As the creator of a long article it is difficult to know what is required. Short to the point one page articles will generally become repetetive. How many bed stops etc can there be? and still be absorbing enough to interest a reader who already has one? In the earlier days articles spanned many issues ie. building a particular steam engine in the ME. Today attention spans are much lower due to the media etc. Imagine Top Gear geezers getting exited at whats below the bonnet I mean, they think – boring. How would say an older article about building a clock be received in todays envioronment? Thats the problem the devil is in the detail.

Alan

[Harold Hall 1Participant @haroldhall1]

Well said John I could not agree more. During my short time as editor of the magazine for the early issues, I introduced CAD, Computers, Electronics, Electric Motor theory and Metrication, so I know all about the "not in this magazine brigade".

The task, for the majority of readers to accept such topics, is to balance the amount of pages devoted to a topic with the number of readers sufficiently involved or interested in it. Of course, on that basis, if a new method arrived tomorrow it should not appear in the magazine as no one is using it. This is obviously not the case and the magazine should always be biassed, just sufficiently, to advance new methods.

If the magazine has got it wrong, it was two or three years back when the amount of CNC being included was sufficient for many readers to object and the after effects of this may still around.

For me, I do not see any benefit in using CNC in my workshop as almost all tasks amount to time (a few minutes to perhaps an hour) deciding how to set up the operation and doing this and then time to carry out the machining, when, in quick time, it is done.

One exception would be the crossing out the wheels on the clock I made. Also, producing the main frames and other odd shaped parts. If though I had had the facility and used it, would I have gained the same lever of satisfaction, the answer is "no way"

Having for my working life designed very complex multi motor drive control systems for the printing and paper trades I eventually had the considerably satisfaction of seeing the machines start up producing newspapers, paper or coated paper, etc. There was no satisfaction for me in the end product being produce, only having designed the complex circuits to achieve that.

If then I produced my clock using CNC and told my friends I wrote the computer program to make that I would probably have the response "Oh" but if I said I made that, as I know, the response can be "you are clever" Actually, I do not go along with that, clever people can get up in the morning and just do something, I often take weeks or month to get started.

Regarding the magazine name, I agree John. During my time as editor I often made the point but had no say in the mater. However, if an author referred to "the model engineer" (a person that is) I would very often change this to "the home workshop owner"

Similarly, to advance metrication, I would redraw some of the simpler items using metric dimension, not just changing 1" with 25.4mm but using genuine metric sizes and materials.

Perhaps John, you should do some more long trips, then we could have more of your wisdom.

Harold

[John CoatesParticipant @johncoates48577]

Personally I think there are a lot of tensions on here

– those who make models and those who don't (me)

– those who use CNC and those who don't (me)

– those who hail from God's own country (me) and those who don't

I've already expressed my opinion that the early MEWs feel fatter because they are full of short "make do and mend" articles whereas it is easier nowadays to buy that tool or little extra. The first VFD articles look antiquated to the small inverters we all use these days.

BUT I don't feel the argument currently underway is about opposing the march of technology but rather whether it is worth paying a subscription for a magazine that some feel has less relevance to the hobby or interests they enjoy. That is a decision for each individual's conscience.

I would feel more hope for the future if the model aspects were covered in "the other place" and MEW changed to be more of a home workshop magazine covering using machines of the size we have for any and all aspects of home engineering, not just model sized projects. If you look through the back issues there was a good series on all the different welding techniques (arc, MIG, oxy) which gave a good overview.

John

[Cyril BonnettParticipant @cyrilbonnett24790]

Reading through these posts I think that just about everyones views are valid in one context or another, the problem as I see it is that model engineering has gone the way of the world, years ago I could fix everything on my motorcycle and it spent very few days off the road. Today I have a motorcyle that is 12 years old and there are parts of it that I have no knowledge of and that I don't really wish to learn about, electronic ignition for starters.

Both the magazines now have a untenable task, that is accomodating the 'old school' the not so old school and the modern 'young school' of model engineers/home machinists. There lies the problem the magazines are not really any bigger in content than the Model Engineer was forty years ago, but the modern engineer likes to read about their 'bent' and specialising in such 'magic' as CNC takes away the space that used to be available to the old school. So prehaps a change within the two magazines would not go amiss, limit one magazine to more modern engineering and the other to the more traditional engineering. I like many others do not want to learn CAD or CNC but I still have loads to learn from actually hands on engineers, some that is so basic that it makes CAD or CNC look like the preparation for a mars or moon landing.

[mike mcdermidParticipant @mikemcdermid41977]

I like John ponder what is next ,Progress means your generation and mine will be a curious antiquity

Model engineering at the moment will move into the realms CNC as industry starts to move away and use more modern technology Machining lumps of metal is wasteful and needs skills there is already a massive massive discrepency as those skills dissapear (i work in one of europes most advanced manufacturing centres for this stuff and if some had their way composites and plastics are far better choices) they need to be taught ,only recently have University training colleges been set up here ,but its a bit late as over the last 20 years there have been no apprenticeships ,well in the sense of time served and such

The next generation will not learn engineering as we define it

They wont even have a use for CNC companies will buy a design from company A pay for it and print it either themselves or via company B ,

I dare say model engineers or those hobbiests of a mechanical ilk will buy the design and print it from an itunes like app store or you will become a designer for others to print your wor Its much the same as it is now when a drawing gets printed in MEW issue ??? but we wont be reading a drawing and machining it

I agree with harold to some degree but not in others i have a Hurco VMC here in the shop and for some things it takes no longer to do the cam set up on the computer program and run the Job even for very simple things , however there are some things it is just easier to do manually Its certainly no slower to , people wonder why there are old manual machines in my shop ,there seems to be this middle ground of hobby CNCs which in all honesty I frown upon as toys, sure they are computer controlled and they cut metal but thats where the similarity stops,

We are not there yet printed parts are still very poor at holding tolerance but it is coming, I dare say the generation after that will probably not 3d print an object ,a machine that arranges atoms will just materialize the product from a pallette of chemical elements, that last sentence isn't a technology my imagination just came up with, now imagine how tight a tolerance you can get with atoms

MOST importantly however ,sometimes its just nice to make things by hand the old way?,if history serves even archeologists dig up things from 100s of years ago,that people have made by with their hands, i hope its just human nature

[Harold Hall 1Participant @haroldhall1]

I have re-read the earlier comments, particularly about my articles, and feel that I should comment, something I should have done earlier, sorry for the delay. Its not that I cannot accept criticism but the are being judged against a different purpose for which they were written.

Coalburner says “3 pages on crossing out clock wheels!! – How hard can it be?” I could say he is being selfish for expecting all articles to be at his level of understanding. However I will accept that he is not aware of the wide range of abilities present in the field of the home workshop owner.

Myself, frequently answering the most basic questions regarding the pastime from those new to it. I could ask why do such people ask such questions? I do though admire their enthusiasm for a pastime for which they have not had the slightest training. These people need, as I am aware, for every t to be crossed and every i to be dotted. For them it can be very hard.

Regarding my updating of a drilling vice he says “You cannot make a silk purse from a sows ear” with which I agree but I do not see many people walking around with silk purses. Similarly, in the workshop not every one needs a Kurt for something approaching that.

For me, apart from the tilting vice which came with the mill I have never used a totally commercial vice and that's over 25 years. I do not want to get to deep into personal matters but retiring at the age of 58 with two very small pensions and the magazine of which I was becoming editor only being six issues a year so money was tight,

Then, when finding that I would need to write quite a lot of the magazine to fill it I realised that the tilting vice was far from ideal as an only vice, so modifying a drilling vice was the best way out economically. Since then, a lot of items have appeared from my workshop, all of acceptable quality, the clock on the front cover of the magazine being one of them, and have never found the vices I have limited what I produced. I accept the article was a long one but again it was written with the novice in mind.

For those who do not read the magazine and wonder what this is all about I wrote an article stating that I considered the Toolmakers style of vice had a lot to recommend it, particularly for those milling on the lathe or owing a mini mill. To follow this up, realising that the larger toolmakers vices are quite expensive, I produced the article describing how to update a drilling vice which had the same basic outline.

As the articles have been published they are now on my website and for those who do not have the magazine they can be found here **LINK** and here. **LINK**

Do look at photographs 4 and 5 which show how ludicrously small the normal vice used on a vertical slide is (5) and how a much larger and more adaptable vice could be had the toolmakers style is adopted (4).

Having made those points, my apologies to Coalburner but it was easier to stay with one person, I accept that other were saying similar.

As to the magazine as a whole I do agree that whilst I would not complain about any article the balance for that issue was poor. Why did I get 9 pages?

Sorry this is so long

Harold

[Gray62Participant @gray62]

No need to apologise Harold. I have in the past enjoyed many of your articles, I guess it was unfortunate that I picked on 2 of your contributions. The vice article did grate a little as that subject has been covered before in some detail and not that long ago.

I do agree that the balance of the magazine material is poor. I don't have CNC yet but am in the process of converting a redundant mini mill to a CNC engraving machine. CNC interests me but i should never want to see it become the major part of magazine content.

As to the title, I'm not sure how one could change it to attract a larger audience, after all it is predominantly about the workshop and not the work, maybe the emphasis on the 'model engineer' is what is wrong.

CB

[jason udallParticipant @jasonudall57142]

Mr. Hall.
Re improving drill vices.

1. As you say not every one has the money to layout for a “quality ” vice.
2 . The vice modified is probably not much more than the price of the metal in it. And a fair place to start.
3. Improving such, serves to high light the qualities of a “quality” vice. What to look for ( how that helps when we all buy at a distance I don’t know) in a purchased device.
.

So…
Did l like the article…yes
Would I do the project ..maybe. .
Would my time be worth the cost of “a proper” vice…well maybe not but do I have a better project to do..
Harold. .yours was not the fault.
The editon itself is not the fault..it comes as part of other concerns …..facebook ..archive..subs rises….it all adds up..
If you do pull up the drawbridge and leave us to it . We would be futher deminished.
.

[Harold Hall 1Participant @haroldhall1]

Thanks for your understanding Coalburner. I will confess that I had reservations regarding the article on machining the drilling vices to give a toolmakers style vice, as you say it had been done before, though mine was a lathe only project and for smallish vices.

I did of course do it as a follow up to my article detailing what I though were the toolmakers style of vice advantages. These are I consider particularly important on the smaller machines, especially when milling on the lathe.

In retrospect, perhaps I should have done a short article explaining how larger vices are available that can be updated in this way and with just a little detail, then referring back to the earlier articles for more detail. A bit late now of course.

Harold

[John CoatesParticipant @johncoates48577]

Harold

I think given previous comments about the lack of information about whether, when and how articles are going to end up in MEW you may not be in much control of how your original work ends up anyway

I have enjoyed reading and following your "Complete Course" books for lathe work and milling and your articles during your editorialship of MEW. These two books will be lent to a new member (Rick) to get him started when he comes to visit on Friday and I am sure they will be enjoyed as much as I did and he will quickly feel the euphoria of turning out some tooling that looks good and is highly functional, as I did. As you said upon standing down you had pages to fill and a magazine to get out and many of those unattributed articles were yours.

Your contribution to MEW and the wider world of home engineering is undoubted and take pride in the many hours you have given me reading the back issues of MEW or your books.

I still don't understand electrics/electronics and it all seems voodoo to me but I have managed to convert two machines to 3 phase using inverters and got my 3 phase Elliott 10M working without blowing myself up!

Thank you very sincerely for your contributions over the past 20+ years

John

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

I feel that the magazine has to be taken overall and not just over a couple or even a single issue.

OK some subjects seem simple but the mag has to go from the simple hand holding up to experienced user.

Perhaps it's a yardstick of how experienced one is when there is nothing to interest him in an edition of the mag ?

As regards CAD and CAM it does seem to be a subject where there are no grey lines, it's like Marmite, you love it or hate it

However it does have a place as will 3D printing when it gets better.

Wasn't there some famous bloke who once said "Do not ask what my country can do for me but ask what I can do for my country ? Think it was Spike Milligan ?

The same can be said for emerging technology is CAD / CAM can be classed as emerging technology.

Now this is a true story, some while ago i bought a collection of books from a model engineer who had been placed in a care home. Called round and picked these up and was having a coffee with the guy. He was in his early 80's and very with it. I asked him if it was possible to have a bit of a workshop at the home but he said it was against the rules. I asked him if he missed his workshop which he did but he admitted that the last few years were a struggle health wise.

But he'd found a way round this. He'd seen some 3D CAD pictures of some models so decided to learn CAD on his computer and to be honest he was good at it. Because he'd still got some drawings he drew up Minnie in 1" scale. He showed me the finished model and it was awesome, it even had shadows on the ground from the spokes.

He was currently 'building' a loco up the same as some friends were building. they were doing it in 7 1/4" gauge, he was doing it full size !

Sixty feet long, 42 tonnes in a little flat !

Then he went back to the Minnie and asked me did I know what the best thing about it was ? when I replied no he laughed and said "Never broke one drill or tap on the whole model ! " Dry old bugger.

So there is hope for all of us.

Today a customer brought in a drawing of a 'C' spanner, simple sketch made by drawing round the shape on a scrap of paper. he wanted 6 off.

I sat down at dinnertime and drew this up in a simple CAD program, I could have used a free one but preferred the one I'm used to. saved the drawing as a DXF file and emailed it to the laser cutters. Rang them up when I got in the shop to see if they had the file, yes and they are £2.80 each.

OK'd the job and they will be cut by tomorrow dinner. Now perhaps you don't want 6 spanners but they would have cut one or more to the point one of something quite complex.

Learning CAD is just another tool in the toolbox.

[Author]

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