Is a tool & cutter grinder worth having?

[John HaineParticipant @johnhaine32865]

One item of wisdom from the late and great Sir John was that often for amateurs the flutes of end mills never really get worn as most of the load is on the teeth, so it's mainly necessary to grind the end teeth, if necessary far enough to get back to sharp flutes as well. That's what the EMG12 does. Unless you really want to sharpen the flutes something like Harold Hall's grinding jig or the Acute system do the job just fine. And they do lathe tools etc as well. I guess in an industrial toolroom they would get a wide range of tools to sharpen which why the Clarkson's et al are complicated with lots of attachments.

I have a Quorn that my father made and I have adapted for R8 collets, but seldom gets used and usually not for milling cutters! I also made an Acute which is much more user-friendly; by I have to confess that I tend to just buy new cutters and put the blunt ones in a box labelled "to sharpen". I guess the main attachment I need for my grinders is a round tuit.

[John ReeseParticipant @johnreese12848]

Besides the switch to insert tooling there is another reason manual T&C grinders are readily available. Most tool grinding facilities have switched to CNC grinders.

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

My Worden doesn't see a lot of use, but it is a useful tool to have. Drills cut so much better and more accurately after sharpening on it, ditto for lathe tools and slitting saws.If you have the space, and cash for one, it will do jobs better than you can freehand.

In some instances, it may even be possible to use as a a small surface grinder.

Howard

[mark costello 1Participant @markcostello1]

You MAY find out You use it for many more things than originally thought. Grab it and if it does not work out then Call Me (across the pond) I will find a use for it.

[garyashParticipant @garyash]

hi all, as the Edward Blake machines got a mention here I wondered if anyone has instructions as I have fitted the ‘nodding’ head on to my Astra Elite AR5. Did one special cutter ok, but it was guesswork so instructions could be useful.

Thanks

Gary

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

A tool-&-cutter grinder is worth it if you carry out a lot of milling. Disliking waste and careful with my money I don’t regard milling-cutters are disposable, use-once-and-throw-away, items; and indexable tooling cheap for industry is costly for amateur use!

I splashed out on a Hemingway Kits “Worden” T&C Grinder – I don’t need use it very often but am glad I built it. This will not sharpen flutes but is effective on end-edges.

It will also trim lathe tools to accurate profiles though to preserve its wheel I use that only when really necessary and after rough shaping on an off-hand grinder, such as for screw-cutting tools – and tend anyway to use insert tools for that. I have no idea if it has saved me money yet, but over time it probably will.

It’s a little bit of a faff to use because its indexing is very basic, and won’t cope with three-flute tools, but that’s not a serious problem.

 

I recalls someone on this Forum really baffled by how to set a lathe tool on the ‘Worden’. I explained it as carefully as I could but I don’t think he grasped it!

 

I am also part-way through completing a “Stent” (from drawings and castings supplied by Blackgates), but I’d not paid much for it. It was sold at a low price, or even given to me, a long time ago by a former club member who’d gone all-insert.

[bernard towersParticipant @bernardtowers37738]

I made a stent some 30 plus years ago and wouldn’t be without it. It gets used for drill sharpening/lathe tool grinding end/slot mill grinding/ graver grinding and I have a small perm magnet for the bed for little surface grinding jobs. I also have a motorised Petal headstock that fits the bed where I grind Amal TT carb needles. So you can see they can be quite versatile its really up to you!!

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

Many years ago I bought a Worden Cutter grinder kit, and made it up, because “It seemed a good idea” at the time..

Have never regretted it.  It not in constant use, but when needed has been invaluable.

It has been used to grind drills, lathe tools (Knife, chamfer, screw cutting and tangential), clean up battered end mills, and with a diamond wheel to regrind an inserted tooth carbide face mill, as well carbide boring bars

It has enabled drills to be four facet ground, and more accurately, which has made for easier drilling and more accurately sized holes.

A sharp and properly ground cutting tool is a joy to use.

One day, I hope to make fixtures to grind woodworking chisels and plane irons.

Howard

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

My Quorn gets used much more for lathe tooling, drill sharpening and specials than milling cutters. It was an education to make and enjoyable to use especially for making special cutters.
I also have a Union T&C grinder which as it was free I couldn’t refuse. It’s very old school being designed for shaper tooling and horizontal milling cutters. However with the swivel bed and centres it’s pretty good at doing the leads of reamers. One of these days I shall make a fixture to mount the Quorn tool holder and rotating base on it and wind up with something quite universal.

As to economic, who is counting. If it’s fun it’s worth it.

[Clive FosterParticipant @clivefoster55965]

My Clarkson earns its keep as drill sharpener. The ability to accurately put a really sharp point on any drill within its size range in a minute or less is worth the £300 or so I have invested in it. More than competitive with the decently good and reliable “affordable” commercial style offerings in the style of this Huanyu (who they) device from Amazon

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Huanyu-High-Precision-Portable-Sharpener-Re-Sharpener/dp/B074BVK98D?th=1

Getting a set of ER collets in the box is a not inconsiderable benefit of this style tho’.

I’m generally dubious of the various mostly plastic, special collet and wheel options, but this Optimum might be OK as its from a commercial supplier

https://www.zoro.co.uk/shop/tools-and-machining/bench-grinders-and-accessories/gq-d13-drill-sharpener-grinder/p/ZT1146084S?utm_source=google&utm_campaign=pla%2B%7C%2BTools%20%26%20Machining&utm_term=ZT1146084S&utm_medium=pla_css_2&targetid=pla-1362773762831&loc_physical_ms=1006666&dev=c&gad_source=1&gbraid=0AAAAADgXECOMSzP482P1J2VN11ETy5-kD&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIxJ-b757KigMV_JlQBh1YByFREAQYBCABEgLL_PD_BwE

at heavily reduced price. Although cynical Clive wonders if the clearance price is because of, ahem, quality issues. It may be worth noting that versions from industrial suppliers, presumably of commercial shop use quality, are approaching £700 such as

https://www.cutwel.co.uk/hole-making-tools/drill-sharpening-machine?srsltid=AfmBOopDh5LwsNhAvMHxBvVvOcGcOgM6Waio64tsaRAlq2wS8MBBD-Zs

I don’t see any drill sharpener that doesn’t have a proper flip over drill carrier as being suitable for workshop use. The whole point is to be able to sharpen quickly and accurately the moment a drill looses its edge. Not wait until it can barely cut. The rotate a drill type, eg Picador et al, can do a decent job but it’s too much effort for regular use every time a drill looses that near perfect edge. The various plastic types aimed primarily at tradesman use have a well deserved reputation for inconsistency.

Although I have pretty much all the tooling needed for sharpening milling cutters on the Clarkson, albeit some in refurbishment needed condition, I lucked into a lifetime supply of new threaded end cutters in a box when I rescued the P&W lathe from a scrapyard. So I’ve not bothered to learn that side of things. If I need a milling cutter, invariably metric, I havent got I buy YG from Cutwel, good people to deal with, which does add up. I guess around £150 for the 8 or 10 cutters I’ve bought new but that’s offset by them all being purchased for other peoples jobs. So they paid. Food for thought for evaluating the T&C cutter grinder v lifetime supply of milling cutters equation. If you do a decent range of jobs a starter kit of one off of every size milling cutter you are ever going to need in a lifetime is most likely going to be north of £100 new so odds are it takes auction site bargains to tip the balance towards lifetime supply.

Besides the cost of a T&C grinder there is a not inconsiderable investment in time learning how to use the thing properly. Plus how many hours on You-Tube seeing what the instructions actually mean. Building one isn’t a 5 minute task either. Even if you cheat by getting one of the import “U2” cutter holders for (currently) £120-£150 ish. Not forgetting £20 or so a pop extra for the collets. Maybe not so cheap after all. Mr Clarkson reckons carefully made parallel sleeves are just fine.

If you can easily arrange some sort of accurate sliding base there is probably much to be said for the tilting base 5C collet holders such as

https://shop.lloyd-jones.com/shop/5c-sharpening-fixture/?attribute_pa_collet-type=5c-sharpening-fixture&srsltid=AfmBOorRwCTfFj3ES7BFrkZWd1veKdflD2POCsom5RNQTO8QDdNXQadoHaI

although they do only sharpen the end flutes so most likely only 2 or 3 sharpenings. But doubling or trebling the life seems worthwhile. That one seems a bit pricy at nearly £60 plus collets.

No reason why a parallel holder shouldn’t work well enough. How many shank sizes do you have anyway. I’m surprised that no one appears to have published design for home build using simple parallel holders. In pre-Clarkson days a much younger Clive took a look at making a device using a sliding table very similar to the Brook T&C design published in the early days of Model Engineers Workshop with a similar flip tilt device to do four facet drills and end mill ends. After sacrificing the backs of several envelopes it all seemed practical but just enough too much work not to bother. Clive is a lazy so-and-so!

Naturally the work you do makes huge difference. I run a Bridgeport and work in 12 inch to the foot scale as a home shop guy. Mostly doing things for folk. So I need a much larger range of cutter sizes than Jason who not only makes small models, lots of small models, but also makes proper use of CNC on reliably specified materials which is much kinder to cutters. Some of the things I end up dealing with are seriously not cutter friendly! Bigger cutters cost more too.

Clive

 

[michael cole]

On michael cole Said:

Yes it is worth it, Buy or build one that will last you a lifetime and you will get your moneys worth.

How old are you Michael, and how many cutters do you get through?  I’m a creaking gate and haven’t cut metal for medical reasons since March.    It’s extremely unlikely I would get value out of a grinder.

And before I was ill, cutters lasted a long time.   That’s because my experimental interests are met by machining free-cutting Steel, Aluminium and Brass at rates that maximise cutter life.  Lucky me, it’s much cheaper to replace than  resharpen.

I suspect most hobby workshops are similarly lightly loaded, in which case a grinder is a waste of space and money.  However, only the owner knows how many cutters he gets through, how much they cost to replace, and how that compares with purchasing a grinder and sharpening them in-house.

Interestingly my 1948 engineering book recommends all but the largest firms should have their tools resharpened by an external specialist.  Cheaper back then to send off a few hundred blunt cutters per week than it was to buy a machine and pay a skilled man to operate it.  On the other hand, a Model Engineer might well value the convenience of being able to resharpen as and when needed.

Dave

 

[peak4Participant @peak4]

From what I can see, Clive’s middle option, the Optima, is similar to the Sealey SMS2008 which can be picked up for a lot less than the above recommended price.
I have one, and it does work OK(ish) but needed a bit of tweaking out of the box.
There’s really too much play and wobble twixt the drill holder and the two openings where you access the diamond wheel, as can be seen in both the following videos.
I can get better results with a Picador/Potts style, though I tend to prefer the Reliance.

There’s several other similar branded versions available, as well as a number of video reviews.
This is the official one below, but see also

Bill

[Clive FosterParticipant @clivefoster55965]

peak4

Yes indeed there are many makers / suppliers of that style of drill sharpener at widely varying prices. As ever you get what you pay for!

Low end clone cheapness is generally due to the copyist not understanding the engineering so it doesn’t work as well as it should, of at all, and / or poor material choices.

Once you get to a price range where the supplier is reputable enough to have done the engineering and materials choice correctly you are generally trading off price for durability and, in the lower reaches, the lack of the little touches that make the difference between “well it works” and “works real nice”.

Top end prices should mean “I can earn my living with it” quality. AKA always does exactly what it says our the tin  quickly and accurately without fettling and unreasonable adjustment.

But in these days of remote shopping and easy import of a batch from a (usually) Chinese “we put your name badge on it supplier” how is the ordinary guy or gal going to make a good decision. The one I linked to comes via a trade supplier who, presumably, will have gone to some effort to select goods of at least workmanlike quality. But they could have just traded on thier name and gone for the big mark up.

Given the amount of work involved in mould making or casting I have never understood why these suppliers don’t go the extra few yards and get it right. Understandable if getting it right means a really difficult feature or two that can be dropped if sort of works could be considered acceptable. But thats not the case here. Most especially I find the way suppliers are happy to provide the many Picador/General swing across the wheel sharpeners made with incorrect geometry totally depressing.

Bit different on items with significant machining involved as cutting the extra operations needed to get things really good can make parts significantly cheaper. Especially as rectification is generally within the skills of the purchaser and far less work thats tarting from raw casting.

From the perspective of suppliers to our, usually impecunious, market finding an appropriate price performance ratio must be terribly difficult. Especially as so many have expectations approaching Rolls Royce quality for Austin 7 prices.

Clive

[peak4Participant @peak4]

There’s quite a few reviews of the Optima as well as the Sealey; from what I can see, it’s the same machine, but a different colour of plastic, with the same strengths and weaknesses.

Stefan Gotteswinter reviews a similar principle but higher quality machine here.

Bill

[Clive FosterParticipant @clivefoster55965]

peak4

The one reviewed by Stefan is indeed much more engineering like.

However getting back to the T&C grinder my contention is that most of us have a vastly greater likelihood of needing to sharpen drills than milling or other complex cutters.

Hence a T&C can only be “economically” justified in the home shop if it provides a fast, accurate and fuss free way of sharpening drills at a purchase price reasonably competitive with a stand alone device of similar ease, speed and fuss free work. Noodling around rectifying deficiencies in a less costly device doesn’t really count. Thats more “a well it was cheap so fiddling is what I expect” kind of thing.

Once you have gotten it at something of an acceptable price for drill sharpening being able to do milling cutters et al for the proverbial “few dollars more” becomes a bonus.

Of course buying, or building, a T&C grinder because it’s cool makes being able to sharpen milling cutters merely a justificationary thing. A rather different matter and not subject to rational fiscal analysis.

But we Model Engineer and Home Workshop types don’t do rational fiscal analysis beyond “how the beep can I afford what I want and how do I smuggle it past the domestic authorities.” Comparative financial analysis against (multiple) hairdresser appointments being both unsuccessful and seriously dangerous to corporeal survival.

Hafta admit that I paid £50 for my Clarkson because it was worth it for the “cool” factor. Several years later I found a drill sharpening attachment nearly complete at an “only a bit more than affordable” price. Having sorted the beast and put things into service I realised that I should have just paid the going rate years ago.

Clive

[BazParticipant @baz89810]

Wouldn’t be without my Clarkson, doesn’t get used very often but when you need it, you can’t do without it.

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

You can also use a T&C (some versions) as a surface grinder and visa versa. But I still want both in my dream workshop. Hey, Santa didn’t you get my letter?

[Neil LickfoldParticipant @neillickfold44316]

I have purchased a used cutter grinder. It is totally knackered out. So needs rebuilding. It has already have a few attempts at it getting reconditioned in its past. So will require the surfaces to be recut, and then some of them built back up again. This time round I will use turcite and bond it to the surface. Mainly to get the leadscrews back into centreline alignment. The spindle bearings are ok.

Hindsight would be better to have put the money into a new one.

As I now have a thicknesser , will make it so that it can grind the 510mm long hss blades for it , by making an attachment that will have 700 mm of travel that will sit on the original table.

When I looked at it initially, I thought it just had loose gibs etc.  So being over optimistic about something can be a problem too. The accessories are still in very good condition, and it was well worth it just for those and the spare wheels and mandrels etc.

I may just transfer them to a new machine. Will have to see how far my patience goes with repairing this one.

Neil

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