Interview Harold J. Turpin june 1943

[Askild AntonsenParticipant @askildantonsen75502]

Engineering friends!

I am a gunsmith and former curator arms and armour at the Norwegian Armed Forces Museum i Oslo.

At the moment I'm doing a research trying to establish how the acronym STEN in Sten gun is to be interpreted. S is for Shepherd and T is for Turpin. EN is interpreted Enfiled or England.

The inventor og the gun, senior draughtsman Harold J. Turpin RSAF Enfield, was a dedicatd model engineer who wrote articles in model engineer magazine in the inter war years. In june 1943, he was interviewed anonymously about the invention of the Sten gun. Here he states EN is for England.

In Norway it's not possible getting hold of a copy of the june 43 volume.

My question is if someone amongst you collect back issues og this magazine and are willing to help me out with a pdf of the article from june 1943?

Cordialy

Askild Antonsen

Please PM for e.mail address (edited by JasonB)

Edited By JasonB on 26/02/2015 12:23:17

[Askild AntonsenParticipant @askildantonsen75502]

looking for interview with the inventor of the Sten gun

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

According to this EN stands for Enfield Lock where it originated, Enfield Lock being a Royal Ordnance Factory.

**LINK**

[Askild AntonsenParticipant @askildantonsen75502]

This is what I'm trying to find out. I do belive Mr. Turpin states EN is for England in det article mentioned.

[Nick_GParticipant @nick_g]

.

Maybe not applicable to the 'Sten' but I do know the 'Bren' gun stood for that it was designed by the Czech company Bruno and originally manufactured in the Enfield facility.

Nick

[Askild AntonsenParticipant @askildantonsen75502]

Exactly Nick. EN in BREN is for Enfield, but it exists documentation for Shepherd and Turpin that EN in STEN is for England. Now I try finding documentation for this. Amongst others, I'm looking for this 1943 article.

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

I don't have the 1943 article but I have this snippet

[Roderick JenkinsParticipant @roderickjenkins93242]

Askild,

I can confirm that Mr Turpin states that the EN stands for England. I have sent you a personal message with a link to JPEGS of the relevant pages. I hope this is useful.

best wishes,

Rod

[Askild AntonsenParticipant @askildantonsen75502]

I'm verry impressed with the quick responce to my query. @Ady1 and @Rod provided me with what I was looking for. Thank you for all your help on this matter.

And the answer is: EN is for England. In Turpins own words from June 1943.

[Gordon WParticipant @gordonw]

All the references I have state " EN for Enfield" Might it be Vulcan who mis-quoted ?

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Makes you wonder.

Military web sites say Enfield, the BREN stands for Enfield and we will never know what Mr Turpin actually said, only what was written at a later date when the article was written.

[Askild AntonsenParticipant @askildantonsen75502]

II have investigated the sources stating EN for Enfiled. Noke is older than 1949. I have also made an inquiry to the RSAF Enfield apprentices assosiacion in Enfiled. They too confirm RN is for England, not Enfield. I'm convinced, but I'm not intereseted in further argument concerning this in this forum. I'm just finished arguing the same theme in a Norwegian facebok group. Wich, in the first place is why I started looking into this.

I once again send my regards to you for your help looking up the source I was looking for. Thank you verry mucg for your assistance!!!

[Roderick JenkinsParticipant @roderickjenkins93242]

This is the first page from the 1943 article.

This article was contemporary with the design and early production of the STEN. I'll leave to others the problems of disentangling the problems of secondary sources in historical research. But, if the editor at the time (Westbury?) knew Turpin then that could maybe be considered as primary source.

The rest of the article goes into some detail, with drawings, of the design of the STEN gun. In this day and age I'm reluctant to take responsibility for re-publishing but I'll gladly pass the scans onto to a moderator if so requested.

Rod

[Askild AntonsenParticipant @askildantonsen75502]

This article isn't the only source stating this. Col Shepherd is also cited stating the same ting. Both oraly and in writing. And this article is the oldest reference and the one closest to Mr. Turpin himself. The oldest Enfield description is in a book by Gen. maj. Hay in 1949. In adition RSAF Enfield did not invent the Sten as they did with the Bren. That's also an argument for not namin it after the factory. As I said, I'm convinced EN is for England

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Just to add some spice, Leslie Hore-Belisha is he to whom we owe the Belisha Beacon.

Neil

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

From all the information I can find, the EN stands for Enfield in both the Sten Gun, and the Bren Gun, Enfield did not "invent" the Bren Gun, but modified the Bruno design to take the rimmed .303" cartridge. The Sten gun was designed by Turins and Sheperd who both worked for Enfield.

Ian S C

[Nick_GParticipant @nick_g]

Posted by Ian S C on 27/02/2015 11:50:20:

but modified the Bruno design to take the rimmed .303" cartridge.

.

And after the war given another few tweaks and chambered for NATO 7.62

This was in service until quite recently as the LMG

Nick

[Roderick JenkinsParticipant @roderickjenkins93242]

Posted by Ian S C on 27/02/2015 11:50:20:

From all the information I can find, the EN stands for Enfield in both the Sten Gun…

However illogical it may seem to us in 2015 that the BREN and STEN guns had differing derivations for their names, Askild has gone back as far as he can to find some primary and contemporary sources – some serious scholarship there.

It's amazing how difficult it can be to shift entrenched ideas (possibly just assumptions) with new research

Rod

[JohnFParticipant @johnf59703]

Askild, there are several articles in Wikipedia and both solutions are mentioned but it also mentions that much of the production was done in a great many small workshops such as we all use today then shipped to an assembly point so it would seem more logical that the EN does in this instance stand for England ?

You may already know but I saw a wooden rifling maching made by the Norwegian resistant ( the Ling ?) in a museum in either Bergan or Tromso , I think it was Bergan but can't be sure.

John

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Congratulations to Askild and Rod, I've amended the Wikipedia article as a contemporary article by Turpin himself is a primary source and six-years nearer the event than the other sources being quoted.

Well done team!

Neil

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

You wonder why the Stengun looks like a toy? It was in a large degree made by Line Bros Ltd, who made Tri-Ang toys. Have a read here;

http://www.vincelewis.net/stengun.htm

I think that may answer some questions.

Ian S C My vote is for Enfield

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 26/02/2015 20:56:25:

Just to add some spice, Leslie Hore-Belisha is he to whom we owe the Belisha Beacon.

Neil

Good thing they chose his second surname and not first to name the beacon after, then innit.

Otherwise, it might have had a red light instead of the amber.

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

A country singer here in NZ had to take his grandmothers name when he went to work in the States, the Kiwis on here will know who it is, John Grennel aka John Hore. So names can be a problem.

Ian S C

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

I checked a couple of references at the library:

"The New Encyclopedia of Firearms" by Ian V. Hogg. Page 45 Shepard and Turpin + Enfield.

"Modern Rifles and Sub-Machine Guns" by Major Fredrick Myatt (MC) and Gerard Ridefort page 113, Shepard and Turpin + Enfield.

Also to add to Bren, and Sten, there is Aden (as in aircraft Cannon*) stands for "Armament Department Enfield".

Ian S C                              *25 mm & 30 mm, used in the Hawker Hunter, English Electric Lightening

Edited By Ian S C on 02/03/2015 05:19:57

[Bob YouldonParticipant @bobyouldon45599]

Good morning all,

A good friend of mine was one of the Hoares of Portsmouth, his house was full of Hoares and they all lived next to the Bishops!

Turpin was a prolific writer and contributor to the Model Engineer; locally one of our members has his locomotive Hybrid, still going strong after many years and displays some beautiful craftsmanship and many novel ideas.

Regards,

Bob Youldon

[Author]

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