Internet Lemmings

[Peter Cook 6]

On Peter Cook 6 Said:

What worries me is the number of people whose lives revolve around using their computer/smartphone, but who have absolutely no idea how any of it works.

Why should they? The phones are aimed at the general population, not at you clever IT people. Did the majority of people using standard (POTS) phones in the last century (and still) have any idea how the regular phone system works?

The whole point of this and similar technology is to allow unsophisticated users to achieve their aims without being techie. To blame those users because some *****s abuse that technology seems a bit harsh.

[HowiParticipant @howi]

I am NOT paranoid, I just know they are out to get me!

Infamy! Infamy! they’ve all got it in for me!

I suppose it is an age thing!

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

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[Peter Cook 6]

On Peter Cook 6 Said:

It’s probably worse than you imagine. It’s not just society that is laying itself open, but many, many individuals.  As an Ex IT person I help a few people in the village I live in with “computer problems”. What worries me is the number of people whose lives revolve around using their computer/smartphone, but who have absolutely no idea how any of it works.

Presumably you remind yourself how the sewage system works every time you flush the toilet, or go over the chemistry that makes your yorkshire puddings rise before cutting a mouthful? How about ensuring that every driver on the road can draw diagrams of how their gearbox works?

 

I have only a very basic idea of how this computer is connected the internet, but knowing any more would not change what I use it for.

[Mike HurleyParticipant @mikehurley60381]

Yes, nobody knows everything, or needs to. Knowing the full mechanics of such and such isn’t necessary with the vast majority of things in everyday use.

Unfortunately, many people have little or no interest in how computers / internet co-exist, and on one hand that’s perfectly fine. But the other side of the coin is that may leave them open to exploitation / hacking / fraud etc. particularly when something goes wrong / unusual occurs. Not everyone – particularly in the older generation, have someone to easily call upon to help. I don’t think there is a simple answer to this one – even for the tech savvy oldies as the criminals, hackers & big business are usually at least one step ahead!

Mike

 

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

Fully paid up Luddite!

Will not join Facebook, Twitter, On Line banking.   Use a 3 G mobile phone as an emergency line only.

In that way the amount of my personal data harvested is reduced.

Wish it could be minimised, but fear that in one way or another, somewhere, there is data on my shoe size, among other statistics.

If I have an E mail problem, have to log into my account, then answer all the security questions again to “chat” to someone who is supposed to be able to solve my problem.  Note the “supposed”

Failing to answer all the repeated questions means that they cannot / will not help.

Too many organisations, and people have access to all sorts of information aboiut me that I would rather not not have known, and ready to be spread about either for their satisfaction, or for some sort of blackmail or fraud attempt

At least pen and paper do not vanish when the power does, and are reasonably secure.

But, Cheer Up!

Probably not in our time, but when all the oil has run out or been prohibited, there will be a market for folk who can drive a horse and plough. My late father was a champion horse ploughman!

There may even be openings for those who can make / repair things or twirl handles on machines powered by foot or water!

Howard

 

[Grindstone CowboyParticipant @grindstonecowboy]

Nobody else see the irony in using an internet forum to complain about the internet? No?

Oh well…

😉

Rob

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

Rob –

I certainly see it. What’s even more ironical not us using the Internet to moan about it, but apparently there is quite a variety of anti-science types using it to promulgate their views!

The problem though is not the internet or things like fora.

The problem, and original question, is the exploitation of the system and its users by the few huge, mainly-American, companies who have taken it over for their commercial ends. Ends to which also everyone’s personal details are merely to be stolen and traded – i.e. without the owners’ permission and knowledge.

…..

Like Mike, I won’t use Facebook and its ilk; and my portable telephone is a simple 3G-rated instrument, and on PAYG. It is so simple that voice telephony is its primary function!

I have an Internet bank-account but have never managed to be able to use it, and frankly I do not want to use it. I want to continue to use real banks and ATMs. A bank staff member helping with something once asked if I have an on-line account. I told her that, and added, “Anyway, why talk yourself out of work?”

There is another precaution to make life slightly harder for the corporate data-bandits, but I don’t think mentioned above, is care with so-called “cookies”. Why a programme might be called a “biscuit” I have no idea, but as far as possible always turn them off.

 

[Grindstone CowboyParticipant @grindstonecowboy]

“Why a programme might be called a “biscuit” I have no idea”

This may help to understand some computing terms – most of them do, in fact, make sense when explained.

Rob

Links to https://inlife.co.uk/why-are-cookies-called-cookies/

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

A more subtle technical reliance that is little known about is GNSS (Global Navigation Satellite Systems) e.g GPS, GLONASS, Galileo and BeiDou. These are used for Position, Navigation and Timing (PNT). This covers more than you think. Many system rely on it including communications financial transactions etc as well as the more obvious aircraft and ship navigation.
There is little back-up for many of these and while they have worked reliably so far, it is possible that a solar storm or state level action could bring the whole lot down. A software glitch could bring done one of them and not all receivers can, or are set up to, use more than one.

 

[Nigel Graham 2]

On Nigel Graham 2 Said:

…
another precaution to make life slightly harder for the corporate data-bandits, but I don’t think mentioned above, is care with so-called “cookies”. Why a programme might be called a “biscuit” I have no idea, but as far as possible always turn them off.

I’m all for zapping and forbidding cookies, but they aren’t “programmes” – cookies are messages that can stored and retrieved from on a client computer by a website.

Programme is wrong too, in the sense that a list of computer instructions has always been spelt program in the UK.   Gets worse!  Sadly for true patriots, ‘programme’ in non-computer usage is an affectation introduced during Victoria’s reign.  Before then, it was spelt ‘program’, from the Greek root gramma, and the OED prefer this.  If programme is correct, so are anagramme, diagramme, cryptogramme, and telegramme.  I hope not!

Dave

 

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

We keep getting told that hostile countries could get into the interweb and disrupt things like the national grid. If this is the case why is critical infrastructure connected to the public system? Either don’t connect it at all, or have a private system not connected to the rest of the world.

[duncan webster 1]

On duncan webster 1 Said:

We keep getting told that hostile countries could get into the interweb and disrupt things like the national grid. If this is the case why is critical infrastructure connected to the public system? Either don’t connect it at all, or have a private system not connected to the rest of the world.

I can’t even begin to imagine the cost of implementing and maintaining  that, Duncan.

MichaelG.

[Nigel Graham 2]

On Nigel Graham 2 Said:

Rob –

I certainly see it. What’s even more ironical not us using the Internet to moan about it, but apparently there is quite a variety of anti-science types using it to promulgate their views!

The problem though is not the internet or things like fora.

The problem, and original question, is the exploitation of the system and its users by the few huge, mainly-American, companies who have taken it over for their commercial ends. Ends to which also everyone’s personal details are merely to be stolen and traded – i.e. without the owners’ permission and knowledge.

…..

Like Mike, I won’t use Facebook and its ilk; and my portable telephone is a simple 3G-rated instrument, and on PAYG. It is so simple that voice telephony is its primary function!

I have an Internet bank-account but have never managed to be able to use it, and frankly I do not want to use it. I want to continue to use real banks and ATMs. A bank staff member helping with something once asked if I have an on-line account. I told her that, and added, “Anyway, why talk yourself out of work?”

There is another precaution to make life slightly harder for the corporate data-bandits, but I don’t think mentioned above, is care with so-called “cookies”. Why a programme might be called a “biscuit” I have no idea, but as far as possible always turn them off.

 

On Grindstone Cowboy Said:

Nobody else see the irony in using an internet forum to complain about the internet? No?

Oh well…

😉

Rob

Say’s it all really, Me! i’m a Lemming rather than a Dodo, at least I am alive so have a choice of what cliff I jump from.

[JourneymanParticipant @journeyman]

I note that some have said they are still using 3G phones. The network providers have already started to shutdown this service in the UK and all 2G and 3G services will be terminated by 2033. So at some time in the near future you will need to make a decision to either not talk to anyone or bite the bullet and get a ‘smarter’ phone 🙂

John

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

Duncan, Michael –

Perhaps the question would be the cost of not using private networks; but as we saw with the Post office ‘Horizon’ scandal and could see with a recent NHS decision, the country seems happy to give major, MS and Internet-based so fundamentally insecure, systems to any old foreign company with no thought of quality, cost, supplier’s responsibility or security.

Private networks can work, or at least company systems using the Internet, can be protected very heavily, but I suspect as usual, sales-ticket cost rather than real value rules.

Refusing to use “standard” (monopolist) Microsoft software except for fenced-off areas necessary for public access, may go a long way to helping keep the system secure. That MS Windows is such a world-wide monopoly must surely make life easy for the attackers, whether criminals or governments. They understand how it works and how to dig into it.

Bar all international Internet traffic except where absolutely necessary to the organisation, and that via very strong filters that identify and display the source. Block any from an unexpected source address or country.

Using written alternatives and reserves to e-posts and records, and voice telephone calls, where immediacy is not necessary (so usually, with good planning) rather than the Internet.

The utilities and NHS etc should have reserve systems enabling continuing services even if attacked.

I think though it really does need the co-operation of the Internet services, in tracing the origins of all traffic. For example, in cases of serious social-media misbehaviour like bullying, they so often bleat “We have taken down the posts”. Not enough. Delete the account and block the sending address – permanently.

.

Rob –

Actually, lemmings do not commit mass suicide at all, and the dodo was wiped out by hunters! So perhaps not good metaphors. Nor is “Luddite”.

The Luddites deliberately destroyed machines they thought would make them redundant. Refusing to use Facebook and Amazon, and to buy a “smart”-‘speaker and “smart”-‘phone, makes we of that mind careful, but not Luddites.

So I don’t know what animal or historical metaphor would be the nearest to the OP’s “lemmings”.

Ants? The Worker bees in a hive? Possibly: mindlessly all following suit in huge numbers, doing the same things, to suit the entirety (the IT giants here) rather than ourselves. Except that the insects are supporting their societies for the common good, indeed survival – since when have Facebook, Amazon and the like done that?

Cats? The domestic moggy is highly individual and often “thinks” in strange ways, but is by no means slavish to those who provide the services it wants. Except that the few huge IT companies use us, to serve them; not they serving us except as a shallow reward for being their commercial assets.

.

John –

My portable telephone is 3G-rated too, a very basic one. Voice telephony is its main purpose, not the auxiliary it was on an LG2017 ‘phone – my first “smart” ‘phone. Frustrated and disillusioned by that inordinately difficult, clumsy, heavy, gimmick-filled contraption with no Operating Manual, I sold it only a few months later.

Yes, we may be forced to buy something “smarter”. I hope still on PAYG not a rip-off contract; but we can still limit what we use it for, when, where and how much; to the extent that will be allowed by commerce. For a simple example, find and print your rail or bus journey time-tables prior to journey, at home; and unless you might need it while away, leave the ‘phone off and at home. Remove all surplus software you can, and don’t load any and all so-called “apps” for the Hell of it.

Already there seems a flourishing trade in foil-lined ‘phone and lap-top wallets to hamper its location-tracking, but also pandering to daft conspiracy-fantasy fears of “radiation” and vaccines! Though such protection will also block incoming calls (as you do often want, of course), and the system needs know where it is when you make a call.

[Nigel Graham 2]

On Nigel Graham 2 Said:

Duncan, Michael –

[…] The utilities and NHS etc should have reserve systems enabling continuing services even if attacked. […]

They do, Nigel … even down to the level of reverting to paper-based processing in extreme situations.

It is the very bulk, cost, and complexity of such systems that prompted my response to Duncan

MichaelG.

[Grindstone CowboyParticipant @grindstonecowboy]

“Rob –

Actually, lemmings do not commit mass suicide at all, and the dodo was wiped out by hunters! So perhaps not good metaphors. Nor is “Luddite”.”

I think you meant to direct that at Howi, but I don’t mind 🙂

Rob

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

Oh, I don’t deny the size and cost of these systems, and that will be so however they are built; but is that how that needs addressing. Major national organisations should be capable of employing, and should employ, their own staff to design, build and maintain them.

Any contractors should be British, not overseas companies who even if competent represent a further drain on the nation’s funds. Competent, unlike the Japanese company Fujitsu, at the heart of the Post Office scandal and against which no action has been taken, so far at least.  The NHS is looking at buying a new admin. system at umpteen-millions of ££ from some American outfit allegedly headed by a man who believes health-care should be commercial – to suit whom? Why?

I worked for a sold-off Government agency with sites scattered around the country. It did use MS Windows but on an extremely secure, internal IT system protected by local servers. My site’s installation, with a few hundred PCs all with monitored Internet access, was looked after by a full time team of five or six people. So I know it can work.

Of course it’s expensive, but the alternative is potentially far worse and important services in this and other countries have been hacked occasionally by external agencies. I’d go further and say there is no excuse for national-level laxity and negligence based on short-term, cost-only idealism and theory.

 

As for the rest of we lemmings / Luddites / dodos / ants / bees/ pussy-cats…. we cannot be expected to go as far as building private servers in our homes, nor to rid ourselves of all our electronics. Any of us can so easily slip up, but we can and should still take all care against not only the obviously-criminals but also the quasi-legal data-thieves.

[Michael Gilligan]

On Michael Gilligan Said:

On Nigel Graham 2 Said:

Duncan, Michael –

[…] The utilities and NHS etc should have reserve systems enabling continuing services even if attacked. […]

They do, Nigel … even down to the level of reverting to paper-based processing in extreme situations.

It is the very bulk, cost, and complexity of such systems that prompted my response to Duncan

MichaelG.

For endorsement of your worst fears, Nigel … Have a look at the Guardian ‘report’ about Sellafield, posted at 14:00 yesterday.

… it’s on Apple News, and presumably elsewhere.

MichaelG.

[Grindstone Cowboy]

On Grindstone Cowboy Said:

“Rob –

Actually, lemmings do not commit mass suicide at all, and the dodo was wiped out by hunters! So perhaps not good metaphors. Nor is “Luddite”.”

I think you meant to direct that at Howi, but I don’t mind 🙂

Rob

Thanks Rob, thought i had dodged that one. 🙂

 

[noel shelleyParticipant @noelshelley55608]

From the little understanding I do have 3G will become 2G for those who only want a basic service, Calls and text !  There now seems to be a problem with smart meters overcharging ? Noel

[JourneymanParticipant @journeyman]

3G will be gone by 2024 and 2G will cease by 2033. See Ofcom for details.

John

[Grindstone CowboyParticipant @grindstonecowboy]

And this morning…

“London Stock Exchange Suffers Third Outage in Three Months
Trading halted in about 2,000 smaller shares for about an hour”

I won’t bother with a link as the main story is behind a paywall.

Rob

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