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  • #694658
    Swarf Maker
    Participant
      @swarfmaker85383

      I fear that every aspect of our individual lives, and the all-encompassing functional aspects of our society, are being laid open to that disastrous situation avoided by all good engineers, but encompassed as ‘single point failure’ – in this case, internet dependency.

      Day after day ‘the news’ reports yet another ‘cyber attack’ to a new and previously unaffected internet driven activity.  So where is the resilience, and what is the avoidance strategy that might prevent our way of life from being totally disrupted?

      When our financial interactions, communication, transport, energy, and lets face it, life supporting infrastructure, can all be turned off or caused to malfunction by an adversary, what is to be done to sustain our society in this interactively connected world without robust alternatives?

      To mis-quote a very significant statement by someone under pressure at a particular pressure point in our UK history, ‘Never in the field of human conflict was so much made vulnerable to so few’.

      Where, and in what, lies our collective defence?

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      #694664
      Kiwi Bloke
      Participant
        @kiwibloke62605

        Our collective defence lies in intelligence and thoughtfulness. The enthusiasm for connecting everything possible to the ‘net is surely driven by folk with relatively little life experience, and shallow thinking. ‘Because you can’ and ‘Wouldn’t it be great if we could…’ are not sufficient justifications for implementing technological ‘solutions’: their consequences are very rarely thought through.

        Unfortunately, intelligence and thoughtfulness are not universal human qualities, and the ‘connected’ generation is living life in a way that outsources knowledge, and, to an ever-increasing extent, thought. Thinking for one’s self is becoming less common: ‘influencers’ and ‘the media’ give you pre-made opinions. Education should be the answer, but governments treat it as a political football: dogma, not evidence-based decisions shape curricula. Education has become woke: the authority of knowledge is devalued.

        Unfortunately, until the fan is choked by flying sh*t, we have little hope. And when the fan stops it will be rather too late. Until then, disconnect as much as possible. Explain to organisations and ‘the authorities’ that you can’t do what they ‘require’ you to do online – it’s quite fun. I tell them that I don’t have a smart ‘phone (which is true) – they find it hard to believe. I point out that it is unreasonable to expect everyone to have one, and that there must be an alternative way of doing business. Eventually, you can win (even with banks!), but it takes time and effort – which is why the game is generally played by the retired, I suppose.

        Interesting (and worrying) books (remember when people read further than to the next hyperlink?): ‘Head in the Cloud’ by William Poundstone, and ‘The Shallows’ by Nicholas Carr. The first edition of the latter, published in 2010, made chilling predictions about the effects of the ‘net and cellphones: all have come about.

        #694672
        Bo’sun
        Participant
          @bosun58570

          Not to mention “big brother is watching you”.

          #694683
          noel shelley
          Participant
            @noelshelley55608

            I agree with the sentiments expressed here and have been warning that it is is only a matter of time before there WILL be a catastrophic failure of the world as many know it. When the most important facility at any place is the USB charging point for an I phone, the game is up !

            I could go on, but for me a shed full of wood for the wood burner and a 20Kva genny that will run on waste cooking oil, and a large library of books I have yet to read will do me ! Noel

            #694685
            Mike Hurley
            Participant
              @mikehurley60381

              I often wonder when out walking my dog, how many young children are growing up with a distorted view of the world due to our total dependance on tech. Specifically, when in pushchairs they actually believe their mothers’ face resembles the back of a smartphone?

              #694693
              Anthony Knights
              Participant
                @anthonyknights16741

                Kiwi Bloke has hit the nail on the head. Every one these days assumes you have a so called “Smart phone” and expect you to download an “App” for just about anything. I DON’T have one and find most organisations are absolutely incredulous that I don’t.

                When I moved to my current location (almost 20 years ago), there were two  branches of the big banks in the village, so I opened an account with one of them. Since then, following a program of succesive  closures, the present address of my branch is some 20 miles away. Complaints get met with the “download out App” response. I also had a big argument with my other bank, about my ability to use my cards to draw cash on a recent trip to Australia. This  again revolved about me not having  a Smart Phone

                I have a simple PAYG phone which costs about £30 a year to keep topped up. Used to call my kids, receive texts about my prescriptions and for domestic or motoring emergencies. There is no way I can justify the eye watering monthly charges for a smart phone, when I have perfectly good laptop to access the internet (when I really have to). All these clever organisations, can stick their Apps where the sun doesn’t shine.

                #694712
                Bo’sun
                Participant
                  @bosun58570

                  Anthony,

                  I could have written that myself.  What’s the world coming to when everything revolves around a b****y smart phone!

                  #694749
                  Bazyle
                  Participant
                    @bazyle

                    20KVA generator! Are you powering the whole village? A small solar cell will keep your smartphone charged (insert evil grin emoji here)

                    #694753
                    Peter Cook 6
                    Participant
                      @petercook6

                      It’s probably worse than you imagine. It’s not just society that is laying itself open, but many, many individuals.  As an Ex IT person I help a few people in the village I live in with “computer problems”. What worries me is the number of people whose lives revolve around using their computer/smartphone, but who have absolutely no idea how any of it works.

                      Without it they are lost/helpless, but if it doesn’t work they have no concept of how to even understand the problem. When I was in IT  we used to have a category of fault called “Problem between Chair and Keyboard”, it was one of the bigger classes of fault!

                       

                      #694776
                      noel shelley
                      Participant
                        @noelshelley55608

                        Bazyle, I do have a solar panel, but,  You made one fatal error – you assumed I have a smart phone – I DON’T ! I find the look on peoples faces when I say I don’t have a Sphone amusing ! I have as of now avoided a SMART meter as well ! Many may find it hard to believe BUT I live in a village with only TWO phases – YES 2. The only 3Ph is my genny, originally built to power a BIG MIG welder, large saw bench and hydraulic wood splitter. May be I should fit the 25Kva unit to the engine, buy a 3Ph fast charger, put the unit on a trailer and do EV flat battery recovery ? Ah well ! Noel.

                        #694777
                        Nigel Graham 2
                        Participant
                          @nigelgraham2

                          I think much of the mutual incomprehension stems from the middle-[mis]management types now administering (or not) everything are of an age brought up on portable telephones and the Internet, working and moving in circles of ditto; so genuinely cannot see and understand the difficulties they create.

                          As for caring, well…..

                          #694781
                          Swarf Maker
                          Participant
                            @swarfmaker85383

                            It is interesting that thus far the discussion has centred itself around smart phones, their use or otherwise.  I was rather hoping for a discussion on how we have ‘engineered’ ourselves into the position of far reaching consequences of single dependency on the internet for our societies ‘life support’.  Even more erudite; How might we ‘engineer’ our way out of this situation?

                            #694785
                            Michael Gilligan
                            Participant
                              @michaelgilligan61133
                              #694796
                              Nicholas Farr
                              Participant
                                @nicholasfarr14254

                                Hi MichaelG, your link has given me an idea, maybe I could develop a Virtual Carrier Pigeon app, except I don’t have a clue how to. I personally avoid downloading all these apps that companies try to encourage one to do so, as I just don’t want my phone cluttered up with apps. I often wonder if some of these apps are like a spy in the camp, which follow your spending trends etc.

                                Regards Nick.

                                 

                                #694798
                                Kiwi Bloke
                                Participant
                                  @kiwibloke62605
                                  On Swarf Maker Said:

                                  It is interesting that thus far the discussion has centred itself around smart phones, their use or otherwise.  I was rather hoping for a discussion on how we have ‘engineered’ ourselves into the position of far reaching consequences of single dependency on the internet for our societies ‘life support’.  Even more erudite; How might we ‘engineer’ our way out of this situation?

                                  The almost ubiquitous smartphone has been used as an illustration of the problem. It is, like all internet-connected devices, a node in an incomprehensibly complex network spanning the world. Most of the network is poorly protected against attack or other disruption, and the end-users mostly don’t know or care. They have sleep-walked into this mess because they were offered ‘bread and circuses’, recognised as a trap for the unthinking masses since Juvenal wrote about it in the 2nd century AD. People don’t learn…

                                  And the techno-enthusiasts, who presumably would be out of a job if they expressed scepticism or advocated caution rather than incautious passion for ‘progress’, make more attractive bread and more glamorous circuses with which to woo the masses. Who in their right mind would want their ‘fridge to be able to ‘talk’ to their toaster – and anything else that’s connected? But the IOT is coming – unless we refuse to play.

                                  So I don’t think we have ” ‘engineered ourselves ” into this mess – we have allowed ourselves to be led by the nose.

                                  The problem is the network, its size, complexity and lack of control mechanisms. If it were possible to ensure that each node were invulnerable, that would help, but it ain’t going to happen. So disconnect anything that really doesn’t need to be connected, and massively simplify the network. That probably also ain’t going to happen, because the network’s architects’ aim is to connect everything possible. ‘Why?’ hasn’t been addressed sensibly, as far as I know.

                                  So it’s probably only going to get worse. However, well-established, apparently ‘essential’ systems can sometimes be shown to have more sensible, and viable alternatives. I’m thinking about publicly-owned companies, whose primary responsibility is to reward their often-disinterested corporate shareholders, which are being returned to private ownership. But it doesn’t happen very often.

                                  #694800
                                  Bo’sun
                                  Participant
                                    @bosun58570

                                    Yes Nick, “a spy in the camp”.

                                    As I said earlier, Big Brother Is Watching You.  George Orwell clearly wasn’t a million miles off the mark all those years ago.

                                    #694802
                                    Kiwi Bloke
                                    Participant
                                      @kiwibloke62605
                                      On Nicholas Farr Said:

                                      … I often wonder if some of these apps are like a spy in the camp, which follow your spending trends etc. …

                                       

                                      Yes, of course they are! That’s what it’s all about! You’d be horrified if you knew what G**gle et al knew about you. And they trade information about you – to who knows whom. Just stop playing their game! Disconnect!

                                      #694811
                                      Alan Jackson
                                      Participant
                                        @alanjackson47790

                                        Thank you guys for you inspiring comments and discussions. I ACTUALLY logged in to make this reply. I agree with all the distopian views you wonderfully express and I was even considering getting a smart phone but then all my chances of finding some freedom would seem to disappear when  I spend all my remaining years trying to keep up with the ever increasing changing smartphone world.

                                        Alan

                                        #694813
                                        noel shelley
                                        Participant
                                          @noelshelley55608

                                          Kiwi your not alone, there are at least 2 of us ! A certain supermarket has a loyaty type card, and every month I would receive THROUGH THE POST (that sort of dates it ) tokens for discount – thats funny I thought, how do they know I buy bread, apples, cheese Etc. Then the penny dropped !!! I was using my discount card – THEY KNEW everything I bought, I had been profiled !  I have never used it since – though it has cost me a lot more to shop. When asked for my card I reply that I do NOT wish to be profilled, analysised, or sold to the highest bidder ! I use KY jelly to fit certain diesel injectors, I wonder what they would make of that ?

                                          The electric company started off telling me the benefits of a smart meter, after several years trying to persuade me they have now decided that my soildstate meter must be changed as it is UNSAFE ! I still keep kicking over the traces !  Ah well, Noel.

                                          #694817
                                          Michael Gilligan
                                          Participant
                                            @michaelgilligan61133

                                            On a brief historical note … I believe that American Express was probably the ‘profiling’ pioneer.

                                            I well-remember their advertising line, from around the mid 1970s I think:

                                            ”Says more about you than cash ever can”

                                            … A double-edged statement if ever there was one !

                                            MichaelG.

                                            #694847
                                            File Handle
                                            Participant
                                              @filehandle

                                              I remember a court case from a while ago. A company went bust, they had assured their customers that their data would never be sold. however it was judged that this data could legally be sold to pay of debts. So we careful who you give data to, its worth more to them then they give you for it.

                                              #694979
                                              Mike Hurley
                                              Participant
                                                @mikehurley60381

                                                Unfortunatley, it seems more and more difficult every day to restrict who gets ‘your’ data. No matter what you do, or lengths you go to avoid it happening, it just seems to magically become public property.

                                                I think its at the point now that most everyone simply accepts it to be the case, as there is little they can practically do about it, and it is impossible to avoid transferring some amount of personal data anyway if you want to exist in the modern world.

                                                Mike

                                                #695003
                                                Taf_Pembs
                                                Participant
                                                  @taf_pembs

                                                  On the ‘Spy in the camp’ .. Jeff Bezos said when he started Amazon that the value was not in selling the product but in harvesting peoples data.

                                                  Have you seen the size and how many there are of the data centres that Amazon / Google / Meta etc have? They are vast. They are trying to stop any more being built in Arizona due to the amount of power and cooling water they require is causing massive problems around planning and supply for others in the area.

                                                  In Ireland alone something like 17% of the countries entire electrical power consumption is just for them.

                                                  Everyone essentially has an ID (whether you have an account or not) with all the big tech companies that is linked to your voice print etc and if you are in range of a smart speaker, smart TV, smart phone etc it can add stuff to your profile depending on what you say to build your profile. I’ve sat in the pub (Alexa behind the bar for background music when it’s quiet) and stuff we have talked about has then come up when I have opened amazon on the computer the next day.

                                                  Now I don’t have a facebook account but the desire to get onto their Market Place due to it being somewhat better than ebay, I may end up loosing to fight not to have one.

                                                  For those that do, and have a smartphone here is a little exercise for you –

                                                  Sit with a mate with your phone near by – pocket, on table , what ever – and discuss getting a new camera .. a Cannon what ever or Nikon what ever.. then afterwards look at facebook and see what your adverts are about.

                                                   

                                                  Frightening.

                                                  #695167
                                                  noel shelley
                                                  Participant
                                                    @noelshelley55608

                                                    The above experiment is indeed true – a friend and his wife were discussing getting a new car within range of the smart speaker, next day all the adds came pouring in – this was about 3 years ago.

                                                    To join a group in Dorset I had to be on face book but only gave mimimum details – 2 weeks later I was told I had abused my account, but could appeal, I did and was asked to give my phone number to verify it was me – I fell for it ! 2 weeks later I was suspended, I could appeal this time they wanted a picture of me – I quit !!!

                                                    I may not be able to wind the clock back – but I can take the battery out ! Noel.

                                                    #695221
                                                    Nigel Graham 2
                                                    Participant
                                                      @nigelgraham2

                                                      I’d not even give such groups chance.

                                                      If it’s a group based on Facebook anyway then it’d obviously not have me as I refuse to use Facebook (and Twitter / X, and Instagram).

                                                      If though the group is otherwise constituted, especially if formed long before FB etc. I would ask if why it has that rule, and if it has any right to exclude people simply for not using some particular [anti-?]social-media site.

                                                      Anyway how does one “abuse” an account by simply giving it only the details it genuinely needs to operate?

                                                      .

                                                      I do not and will not use supermarket “loyalty” cards and I spread my shopping little and often, creating no patterns or habitual use of just one supermarket. I will not have my groceries “freshly clicked” – my only on-line shopping other than utilities, insurance and taxes are few and far purchases for my hobbies.

                                                      I do not and will not buy a “smart” ‘speaker or any Bluetooth / wif-fi / etc. gadgets.

                                                      I refuse a “smart”-‘phone but if compelled will still reduce as much as possible any use of it that might help the big-business parasites.

                                                      I have “smart” gas and electric meters only because I thought they were going to be compulsory. When I discovered that was not so and I could have refused, I regretted not having sought advice first! British Gas recently asked me if I wanted half-hourly readings instead of the monthly I had set up. I refused – at least I hope that went through. Their request was for their benefit, not mine!

                                                      Some animal-rescue charity e-posted me recently, begging for donations. I deleted the post. It had contact me in the past – without success. I don’t respond to begging. It tried again yesterday, apparently peeved that I’d not responded. I deleted it again with no reply, but also blocked it. It had had found me, not vice-versa; I have no idea how but vaguely suspect a well-meaning friend was involved.

                                                      …..

                                                      The original question asked how can we “engineer” ourselves out of the snare.

                                                      We can’t as individuals but we can reduce our exposure by reducing our individual dependency on their systems and demands, ignoring their blandishments and continuing to use as many alternative ways to the same ends as possible while these are still available.

                                                      …….

                                                      My sister has an amusing recollection of a “smart-‘speaker; the one belonging to her daughter and son-in-law. You’d think as he works in commercial IT systems the last thing he’d want is a house full of needless IT gadgetry, but oh, no…

                                                      Sarah recounted how when baby-sitting for them one day, she heard very odd noises from somewhere unidentifiable in the room. She was becoming rather worried about this until her grand-daughter – aged all of three – looked up from her game on the lounge floor, brought silence with the magic incantation, “Alexa! Off!” and calmly resumed the game.

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