Inherited ML7 in need of some love – where to start?

[Martin DowingParticipant @martindowing58466]

Posted by Tom Grace on 02/03/2021 04:38:30:

Afternoon all

I recently inherited my grandfathers lathe that has been sitting in storage for the last 25 years. It’s pretty gunked up and has accumulated some rust, sawdust, dust and grime.

In short – its a restoration project! Something to keep me busy for the next few years worth of weekends 😉

The manual I can find online for ml7’s is dated recently (1997) but obviously older. Based on the serial – K2276 – this machine was early; 1946-1948 era.

So my question is (apart from where to start!) – what would this have looked like when it came out of the box? Is the 1997 manual appropriate?
I’m guessing bearing are likely going to need replacing, and the bed looks like it has some surface rust that may require it to be refaced. I’ve also got some questions about cutting metric threads that I haven’t had a chance to chase – so if anyone has some good references to look up, I’d appreciate the links.

Thanks for your help

Tom

When I got my ML7 about 17 years ago first job done was stripping it all apart, washing eveythyhing with the exception of bed and electric motor with petrol by immersion. and washing bed with petrol soaked rugs.

Because paintwork on my machine was damaged badly I have stripped all of it from bed and all parts with the eception of those made of aluminium which were OK.

For bed (after intelligent protection of bedways and other machined parts etc) sand blast was used, everything else was done with drill/angle grinder & wire brushes.

Attention was paid to detail in removing old paint from all corners and hidden places – quite perplexing

Then all parts ready to repainting were washed by brushing under immersion in isopropanol and dichloromethane. This time bed got the same treatment and only motor was cleaned with rugs.

Then epoxy based industrial paint applicable in mining industry and not available from shop to public was used immediately according to manufacturer specification.

Immediately – to prevent flash rust.

Being chemical engineer I don't have problems with that.

Then machine was reassembled and many things including bedways, saddle etc was rescraped. One guy from trade who has biax and is profficient with i done it for me.

Gib strips were replaced too.

Then spindle and damaged bearing was replaced into phosphor bronze version and then machine became usable.

Much more was corrected as time pass and now my lathe keeps specifications as new.

At that time Myford (Nottingham) was still operational, so many spare parts I got easy and of good quality.

So really my ML7 started as a set of castings.

Martin

Edited By Martin Dowing on 03/03/2021 21:43:28

[Grindstone CowboyParticipant @grindstonecowboy]

I find this type of stainless steel pan scourer to be quite effective and not too aggressive, but I would still avoid using them on the precision parts – they are great on shafts, chucks, etc. Other suppliers are available, just a handy link for illustration.

Rob

[Anonymous]

Posted by Martin Dowing on 03/03/2021 21:41:12:

When I got my ML7 about 17 years ago first job done was stripping it all apart, washing eveythyhing with the exception of bed and electric motor with petrol by immersion. and washing bed with petrol soaked rugs.

…….

Good on ya Martin. I did much he same when I got my ML7 in about he same condition as the OP's about 15 years ago. Yours is much more like the positive attitude that used to exist in these forums when DC started them ~10 years ago.

I can't believe the negativity demonstrated here now. It's tempting to ask which of those that say "don't do it" have ever actually stripped a small lathe to qualify themselves for that advice. I know some, at least, are not "armchair model engineers".

It seems to be assumed that the OP is a beginner but I see nothing in his post to give me the impression that he is a neophyte mecanically and stripping/rebuilding an ML7 should be well within the capability of anyone with basic skills (say car/bike repair or similar). It will need alignment afterwards but it would need that anyway.

Refurbishing my ML7 is still the most enjoyable period by far I have spent in my shop and I know,, intimately, how an ML7 is put together. Like the OP it was the first time I'd ever stripped a lathe but, taken slowly with copious notes and Myford's parts-lists it is very straightforward.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Peter Greene on 04/03/2021 16:31:18:

Posted by Martin Dowing on 03/03/2021 21:41:12:

When I got my ML7 about 17 years ago first job done was stripping it all apart, washing eveythyhing with the exception of bed and electric motor with petrol by immersion. and washing bed with petrol soaked rugs.

…….

 

Good on ya Martin. I did much he same when I got my ML7 in about he same condition as the OP's about 15 years ago. Yours is much more like the positive attitude that used to exist in these forums when DC started them ~10 years ago.

I can't believe the negativity demonstrated here now. It's tempting to ask which of those that say "don't do it" have ever actually stripped a small lathe to qualify themselves for that advice. I know some, at least, are not "armchair model engineers".

…

 

I'm sure the advice beginners shouldn't leap into stripping a lathe is sound. Peter may have done it successfully, but unwise and unnecessary dismantling is a common cause of problems. For example, even chaps who should know better have broken teeth off their bull-gear by using the wrong technique to get a stuck chuck off.

Another good reason for not stripping down in ignorance is the forum can't tell the difference between problems caused by a faulty rebuild, defects due to wear and tear, and the ordinary difficulties faced by inexperienced operators. The rebuild could be the problem.  In many cases it caused the problem!

I agree stripping and rebuilding not rocket science though, and there's no reason why an experienced owner shouldn't get stuck in. It's just a risky thing for a beginner to do on day one. Not everyone is a natural.

The best way to flush out faults in a new-to-you machine is to put it through it's paces by cutting metal.  If there's a problem, fix it, otherwise leave it be.

Try applying the 'have a go' approach to something you don't know about. Bomb disposal, flying an aircraft, ski-jumping, swimming the English Channel, mending electronics and tightrope walking all benefit from a certain amount of training…

Dave

 

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 04/03/2021 17:10:58

Edited By SillyOldDuffer on 04/03/2021 17:15:05

[Anonymous]

…. I rest my case.

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Posted by Tom Grace on 03/03/2021 18:49:45:

Thanks again for the advice. @Hopper – thanks for the identification list. Would have taken me hours going through the manuals to identify parts. But the clutch is one you e identified that I can’t – care to point it out?

Cheers

The clutch is in situ on the left hand end of the countershaft – the one up in the air above the motor. The clutch disc sits outboard of the large spoked pulley. Lever to operate the clutch is on the right hand end of the countershaft via a pushrod up a hole in the middle of the shaft. A very nice to have accessory.

The electrical plug shown looks Australian or (possibly NZ, but there's sun shining in the shed window.) . Wheareabouts are you? I'm in north Queensland.

Edited By Hopper on 05/03/2021 01:15:23

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Posted by Martin Dowing on 03/03/2021 21:41:12:

 

When I got my ML7 about 17 years ago first job done was stripping it all apart, washing eveythyhing with the exception of bed and electric motor with petrol by immersion. and washing bed with petrol soaked rugs.

 

I'd be very cautious about following that advice. Plenty of purpose-made degreasers available that are not so highly inflammable and flat-out dangerous to use. Petrol is dangerous, dangerous stuff when let out of a sealed container or tank. Don't go there.

Personally, I would not go as far as  chemical stripping or sandblasting of the bed etc. Myford used all kinds of putty and thick primer/spray putty to pretty up their castings. Much easier to scrape, sand, wire buff etc the paint back to get rid of the loose stuff and paint over the original base. After all, it's a piece of workshop machinery, not a Rolls Royce. Would I spit polish my angle grinder? Wax the paintwork on my drill press? Not me, although I keep them clean and presentable and in good working order.

But how far you want to go is a personal choice. If doing a Rolls Royce restoration is your aim — and you have the experience, skills and hundreds of hours of time — go for it. If getting the lathe basically presentable and useable and then having fun using it is the aim, then best to keep things to a reasonable proportion.

Edited By Hopper on 05/03/2021 01:54:52

[John OlsenParticipant @johnolsen79199]

I would start by giving everything a good cleanup with the minimum of dismantling and then see how it goes. No point in stripping down ready for a bed regrind if it doesn't actually need one. Many parts can be cleaned and reconditioned (if needed) separately without taking the whole lot down at once.

It does look like a great start. I've cleaned up an 18 inch shaper that looked much worse than that.

John

[Maurice TaylorParticipant @mauricetaylor82093]

Hi, In my opinion the only way to do this properly is to strip it completely , but do not remove the headstock from the bed .

Try to get the chuck off first ,using as little force as possible ,if it won’t move ,put the chuck and spindle in a bucket of diesel to soak while continuing with rest of strip down.

When it’s in bits ,it will be easier to clean and check countershaft bearings and clutch properly.

Its as easy to do it properly as it is to bodge it by cleaning a bit here and there and getting it turning.

Take plenty of photos and put nuts screws etc in labelled jars

Maurice

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

You can check the countershaft bearings right now by grasping the main pulley and seeing how much up and down movement there is between the shaft and bearings. No need to disassemble the whole thing to do that.

[noel shelleyParticipant @noelshelley55608]

As has been said by several, stripping down to it's component parts is good if you have the time, AND far more importantly KNOW what your doing AND have the tools to do it. But as many questions on here show there are many who have NO idea of what to do, have no conception of a .001" or .01mm or eithers significance in reassembling a machine. That they don't have DTIs or feeler gauges let alone how to use them. If one has come to the hobby from a non engineering background and can't even name or recognise the parts then taking the machine apart is frought with danger. If I'm told to do something up FT then I try to find a torque setting for the fixing or I use my experience to judge how tight it needs to be. The uninitiated may well land up with a sheared off fixing and now a REAL problem. That the fixing may nolonger be readily available is just salt in the wound. The cluch on the ML7 is a good point especially if it is of the raliegh brake shoe type(no longer available), though the shoes can be relined. You need to know how to set it ! ! !

To strip it down and do it properly is the best plan, IF you have the tools and Knowledge. For Tom I say superficial cleaning, get it running and get know it, then judge what to do. There will be plenty of advice on here.

On the subject of the silky smooth finish on castings, what was used and how did they do it ? Noel

Edited By noel shelley on 05/03/2021 11:51:40

[Grindstone CowboyParticipant @grindstonecowboy]

On the subject of the silky smooth finish on castings, what was used and how did they do it ? Noel

A friend who worked for Broadbent's told me there was a team whose only job was to apply filler (presumably cellulose) to the rough castings and sand it down ready for painting. A skilled job to make it look good, but the Colchester workers around the 9 minute mark in this video make it look easy.

Rob

[noel shelleyParticipant @noelshelley55608]

Tom, Ian Bradleys book on the ML7 Is handy though only the first 20 pages are on the ML7, the rest is on the S7. That both use the same principles means it is still a very useful book, and shows the cluch as an exploded diagram and indicates how to adjust. It covers the early shoe and later cone clutch on the S7. Noel.

[Nick WheelerParticipant @nickwheeler]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 04/03/2021 17:08:48:

I'm sure the advice beginners shouldn't leap into stripping a lathe is sound. Peter may have done it successfully, but unwise and unnecessary dismantling is a common cause of problems. For example, even chaps who should know better have broken teeth off their bull-gear by using the wrong technique to get a stuck chuck off.

Another good reason for not stripping down in ignorance is the forum can't tell the difference between problems caused by a faulty rebuild, defects due to wear and tear, and the ordinary difficulties faced by inexperienced operators. The rebuild could be the problem. In many cases it caused the problem!

I agree stripping and rebuilding not rocket science though, and there's no reason why an experienced owner shouldn't get stuck in. It's just a risky thing for a beginner to do on day one. Not everyone is a natural.

The best way to flush out faults in a new-to-you machine is to put it through it's paces by cutting metal. If there's a problem, fix it, otherwise leave it be.

Stripping a machine to its components before you know what is and isn't good is a terrible waste of time. As a mechanic, I would much rather run a machine, even a simple one like an ML7, through its paces before dismantling just to start with an intelligent plan.

Completing such a project not only requires the knowledge to fix any problems, but the motivation, discipline and resources to actually see it through to the end. Those are the real issue; lots of hobby projects are bought for pennies in the pound as a collection of boxes full of part completed pieces because the instigator bit off more than they could chew.

Personally, I would never strip the paint off a used machine as it makes no difference to how it works. The many reports of how much filler was used to make castings look good is another reason.

So it is not negative to caution a new owner(that we know nothing about) about dismantling their acquisition without good reason, but honest practical advice. Or common sense, if you prefer that over used and poorly defined term.

[Roger BestParticipant @rogerbest89007]

Hi Tom

The main machine looks to be in good condition, so I suggest you follow the cautious chap's advice on that.

The bits that have been taken off look worse, however they are more easily stripped and cleaned.

There are few YouTube videos on stripping and de-rusting chucks that would be worth following. Its not difficult and using a chuck with rust in the internals will kill it.

I think you should expect to get it working in about 40 hours. Get some pleasure and pride out of it, Then allow yourself to slowly bring it up to what you want over a few years. A full-restoration could be 200+ hours even for the skilled, even more of you go full-hog.

Cheers

Rog

[Tom GraceParticipant @tomgrace60300]

I’m further south than you Hopper – a Kiwi down here. But I did live in Blackwater and Emerald for a few years chasing coal out of the ground.

Based on the huge amount of advice (thank you all for that) – my plan of attack is just to get some oil through the system as many have suggested. First task – clean up the sight feed lubricators as the oil had turned to sludge throughout them and I couldn’t see through the reservoir.

The first one has come apart easily enough down to a point. Now I’m calling for advice before forcing it! Do the reservoir base, bush and standpipe come apart? Should I strip them, or just flush it with diesel to clear the sight glass?

Thanks

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

ON most of those the standpipe is riveted or peened over into the base to seal it. The whole thing should unscrew out of the lathe as one unit. A good squirt out with spray can degreaser from SuperCheap Autoparts should do it. Or poke a wire through there. Then blow through with air if you have a compressor. They are just a straight through pipe with valve seat machined inside so no advantage to separating them from the base and causing leaks down the track.

You can get some hydraulic oil from the auto parts store too. Often sold as compressor oil or jack oil or just plain hydraulic oil. ISO 32 grade is the norm, although ISO46 seems more commonly stocked and will work just fine. That will do to get you going. (Although I just use any leftover engine oil lying around but that seems to be out of fashion.)

A good thing to do in the early stages too would be to start sorting through all those boxes of accessories and identifying them and getting them soaking in degreaser then oil them up to prevent further rust. Get all those gears in one pile and make a list to compare with the original set in the manual. Then get a length of threaded rod, two nuts and some flat washers to tie them all together in a set so they dont get lost.

 

Edited By Hopper on 05/03/2021 23:18:50

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

PS you will need to oil the countershaft bearings too. If they still have the oil nipples in place and you don't have an oil gun (DON'T grease them) you can unscrew the nipples and leave them out and add a few drops of oil to the holes and around the bearing ends repeatedly over a few days to let oil wick into the sintered Oilite bearings there. After that, add a couple drops to the holes everytime you use the lathe. New oil guns are available from Press Parts online. They are handy to flush oil through the carriage ways etc but not essential. You can do the same trick, remove the nipples and squirt oil under pressure into the hole from an oil can by jamming the nozzle up against the hole. Put the nipples back afterwards to keep swarf out. Plus you can oil it like any other lathe and just lay oil on the bed ways and feed screws etc and let it wick in.

Check your electric motor too. If its an older model there might be oil hole at each end to add a few drops of oil to the bearings. Most likely not though.

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

Posted by derek hall 1 on 02/03/2021 07:56:58:

Welcome to the forum Tom.

There will be plenty of expertise on here to advise you, but please resist the temptation to take your lathe to peices to clean and paint it………. you may do more damage and disturb critical settings that may take a while to realign.

I will leave it to others to help you, but pictures of the lathe would help us assess what is needed.

Regards to all

Derek

paint doesn't improve accuracy

[derek hall 1Participant @derekhall1]

Duncan….how true!!!

It always makes me smile when I read articles about renovating machine tools and more care and effort is taken in the paint work!

The machine tools ability to do the job in hand far exceeds the quality of the paint finish.

After all once you brush down all the swarf you just created with that old paint brush, that beautiful paint finish is now scratched by all that nasty swarf.

I prefer "lathe..ing" to painting…….I must must remember to say that to the wife when she wants some decorating done around the house!

Regards to all

Derek

[Tom GraceParticipant @tomgrace60300]

So after a few months of odd evening and weekends, I’ve got this machine back into working order I think! Lots of degreasing, re-oiling and scraping at clods of dry grease!

I’ve collected a couple of queries as I’m been doing this – so here they are.

The cover for the drive belt from the motor doesn’t fit due to the clutch. I’m assuming this means the clutch was an aftermarket add on?

Cover for the lead screw drive train – normal that you can set this up so the cover doesn’t fit?

I had a great encounter with a local hydraulic shop during the process trying to get hold of some oil (couldn’t find small amounts available anywhere!). When I asked them for half a litre, they told me I could have it for free but only if I took the entire container. I’ve now got 25litres of oil sitting in my shed!

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Sounds like your clutch is an add-on so the original cover does not fit. If you look at pics of Super 7 Myfords with clutch they have an extra bulge on the large end to accommodate the clutch. No big deal to run without it, as the motor belt is far away from the operator and unlikely to catch cuffs etc in the way the main headstock spindle belt can. Or you could cut a circle out of the old cover and add a puddin' bowl etc as a clutch cover.

Good score on the oil! That will keep you going for life.

The screw cutting change gears cover should fit on without dramas. The "banjo" that the gear spindles fit into can be rotated to engage the gears with the spindle and then locked up with two nuts at the base where it rotates. In that position the cover should fit, unless you have some collection of oversized gears in place. For regular fine feed while turning, you want the small 20 tooth headstock spindle to drive the largest gear – about a 65 or 70 — coupled to the smallest gear available, which in turn drives the biggest gear left in your set, again coupled with the smallest you have left, finally driving the largest gear left on the lead screw. The Myford ML7 Users Manual PDF is available free all over the net and gives details and pics. Othewise, post pics of the gear train here if the cover won't fit on, plus pics of the cover and we will soon figure something out.

[SandgrounderParticipant @sandgrounder]

Posted by Tom Grace on 14/05/2021 07:43:00:

The cover for the drive belt from the motor doesn’t fit due to the clutch. I’m assuming this means the clutch was an aftermarket add on?

When I fitted a Mk2 clutch to my Mk1 Super7 I just used a 50mm dia hole saw to cut out the guard and fitted a spacer and plate over the protruding clutch shaft.

John

[Swarf, Mostly!Participant @swarfmostly]

Hi there, Tom,

I'm working from memory here.

My ML7 didn't come with a countershaft clutch – I added the clutch myself. I seem to remember that the cast aluminium belt cover fits OK, it's the steel sheet inner part that fouls the clutch. That's a crescent shaped piece of steel sheet that attaches to the aluminium guard with three or four screws.

The clutch fitting instructions give a diagram specifying how much to cut away to restore clearance. It's a tin-snips job. I'll have a look through my archives later today and post whatever relevant info comes to the surface!

Best regards,

Swarf, Mostly!

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

The clutch visible in the posted pics back on page 1 of the thread looks to be mounted outboard of the original ML7 pulley rather than inboard like the later Super 7 type clutch. Maybe it was a Grandpa Special? Further pics would clarify.

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