Inherited a model steam lorry

[Pete VerdonParticipant @peteverdon79012]

Hello,

My grandfather sadly died not too long ago, leaving me his model steam lorry. Unlike the traction engine that he built practically from scratch, which had pride of place in his dining room and is now in my dad's study, the lorry was from a kit and seems to have held much less interest for him. It was kept under a cover behind an armchair, and I didn't even know it existed until last month. Too late to ask about it now

I've come here because I know very little about steam models. I understand machinery in a general sense, and I played with my Dad's typical old Mamod models as a boy, but I don't know about bigger steam stuff. The lorry is maybe three feet long. I am going to collect it later this week, and I don't want to inadvertently do anything silly. So I have some questions:

The traction engine was never fired up – he wanted to keep it pristine. It's quite possible that the lorry is the same. I would like to run it, but is doing so a major irreversible decision in the steam engine world, or no big deal?

Do I have to worry about boiler certificates like I've heard of for full-size engines? Even if not, worth taking precautions with an unknown boiler?

What would a model like this typically run on as fuel? Is tap water ok for the boiler, or might it scale up?

I assume the moving parts will need oiling – ordinary 3-in-1 ok?

Any other advice on moving, storing, and especially running a machine like this is welcome. I know I've given no useful details, but I don't yet have any myself. When I collect it, I will come back here with more information and pictures for you.

Thanks,

Pete

[Pete VerdonParticipant @peteverdon79012]

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Posted by Pete Verdon on 08/07/2014 00:48:18:

The traction engine was never fired up – he wanted to keep it pristine. It's quite possible that the lorry is the same. I would like to run it, but is doing so a major irreversible decision in the steam engine world, or no big deal?

Not Irreversable but obviously it won't be pristine again but could be cleaned up for display at home. You would need to check whats been done so far as things may have been ommited if it was not going to be run!

Do I have to worry about boiler certificates like I've heard of for full-size engines? Even if not, worth taking precautions with an unknown boiler?

Ideally find the paperwork that came in the kit with the boiler which should have a twice working pressure test. Its upto you what to do if you just want to run at home but for peace of mind or to run in public it will also need a 1.5 times test and steam test

What would a model like this typically run on as fuel? Is tap water ok for the boiler, or might it scale up?

Steam coal broken up into small bits, Tap is OK with the addition of a boiler water treatment to stop scale etc

I assume the moving parts will need oiling – ordinary 3-in-1 ok?

Steam oil will take care of the internals but a thicker oil than 3in1 for the moving parts, engine oil will do

Any other advice on moving, storing, and especially running a machine like this is welcome. I know I've given no useful details, but I don't yet have any myself. When I collect it, I will come back here with more information and pictures for you.

There was a recent thread on general "how to steam an engine" have a look for that

J

 

Edited By JasonB on 08/07/2014 07:30:20

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

If it was built froma kit and never steamed, it's possible there are minor tweaks that need to be made to get it running or even just get the best out of it. It might be worth you finding a local model engineering club or similar to help you get started.

Neil

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

To give you an idea of it working, you could connect it to a compressor, and run it on air. No mess!

Ian S C

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

Where abouts are you roughly? It woud be best to go along to your nearest club, even if you don't wnat to join, and get some one ot one advice.

[Pete VerdonParticipant @peteverdon79012]

Thanks for the answers so far. Some assume a bit more knowledge than I have though, especially Jason

to run in public it will also need a 1.5 times test and steam test – how would I go about doing that?

Tap is OK with the addition of a boiler water treatment to stop scale etc – what sort of treatment?

Steam oil will take care of the internals – I guess I can google a supplier of "steam oil", but how does it get into the internals? I was expecting to just apply a little light oil to the obvious bearing surfaces of the machinery, like for any small mechanism.

you could connect it to a compressor, and run it on air – sounds like a good first step to check the machinery works, though I don't currently have a compressor. What sort of pressure should I look for, and how would I connect it?

Where abouts are you roughly – I'm in Southampton.

Thanks,

Pete

[stan pearson 1Participant @stanpearson1]

Pete

Ian is correct if it was mine I would try to find out if the boiler is made out of copper or brass and whether it is soft or hard soldered, I would then try to run it on low pressure compressed air. Then if it runs ok I would then seek help from you local Model Engineers Club, it might cause injury if not made properly. If things don't follow certain guide lines it might be well and less expensive to keep on show.

Stan

[John BaguleyParticipant @johnbaguley78655]

Hi Pete,

It's possible that what you have inherited is a Pride of Penrhyn steam lorry that was produced in kit form by Winson/Modelworks. Have a look on the Station Road Steam website in the archive section under the "2 inch scale and smaller road vehicles" section and you will find plenty of photos of said model.

John

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Testing

You have two options, one is to join your local ME club and as part of your membership fee will be able to get the tests done by the clubs boiler inspector, the other is to employ the services of an independant boiler inspector but this will be quite costly. The club membership will also include insurance so is a good buy though you can arrange that independantly from specialists model insurance companies.

Treatment

I'm assuming its the PoP that John mentions above in which case it has a copper boiler so you would need treatment for that metal something like this If its the bigger Foden kit then use the version for steel boilers.

Oil

Most of the model engineering suppliers and also the one above sell small bottles of steam oil, this generally goes into a "lubricator" which can either mechanically pump the oil or use the fact that oil floats on water (condensated steam) to get the oil into the steam supply to the boiler, It may seem a bit thick at first but once upto teh temp of the steam will keep the moving parts in the cylinder lubricated.

Compressor

Not totally sure of the working pressure of teh boiler but get a compressor with a regulator to make sure you do not exceed the boilers working pressure, for just testing the engine you should not need more than 30psi but will want a reasonable volume of air (cfm). The usual way to run them on air is to remove a boiler fitting typically the whistle or a washout plug / blowdown valve which are located around the bottom edge of the boiler, you would need to make a suitably threaded adaptor to screw into the hole and take the hose.

Location

List of ME clubs

Edited By JasonB on 09/07/2014 07:56:33

[Pete VerdonParticipant @peteverdon79012]

Thanks for those extra details – less of a mystery now

John makes an inspired guess – the pictures of the Pride of Penrhyn do look very familiar.

Picking it up after work tonight so I'll know for sure.

I've found some details for the Southampton model engineering club. Realistically I'm unlikely to join – I don't have the time to make a major hobby of this. But if I decide to get the boiler tested, hopefully one of their guys will have a look for a suitable fee.

Cheers,

Pete

[SteambuffParticipant @steambuff]

Pete,

ME Club Boiler Inspectors are NOT officially allowed to charge a fee nor are they officially allowed to test a non-members boiler.

(Some might test it for you, just to check it out, but you would not get any paperwork – so would not be able to run in public nor would you be able to insure it)

It would be cheaper for you to join the club just for the 4 year hydraulic test (If copper boiler) and the annual steam test.. (You could then enjoy some of the benefits of club membership)

Dave

 

Edited By Steambuff on 09/07/2014 10:27:19

[julian atkinsParticipant @julianatkins58923]

peter,

club boiler inspectors are not allowed to accept a 'fee'. you will need to join the club. there is a certain distrust of new members joining many clubs just to get a boiler certificate – experience shows that this happens so that the new member can sell the model and so benefit from the substantially increased value that a valid boiler certificate provides, and then the new member is never seen again. i am sure this isnt the case with yourself but dont be surprised if if you get a cool response if you ask to join just to get a boiler certificate.

cheers,

julian

[John BaguleyParticipant @johnbaguley78655]

Also worth mentioning that a club boiler certificate is only valid whilst you are a member of that club or you then join another. If you cease to be a member of any club at all then the boiler certificates become invalid. You can get independant boiler tests done by commercial testers but that could cost a lot of money.

John

[Pete VerdonParticipant @peteverdon79012]

Ah, ok, thanks for the heads-up.

It's highly unlikely that I would join a steam club. My free time is already more than occupied by a little sailing and a lot of boat refurbishment. Realistically, I will probably be selling the lorry within a year or two – I want to have a play with it first as I love old-fashioned mechanisms and machinery, but I have no space to keep it long term. It will be going in my living room tonight – which may not be entirely popular with my housemates!

I appreciate Julian's point about people joining clubs just to get certificates. In the sailing world we have similar problems with people joining clubs to avail themselves of cheap moorings or other facilities, and then never participating socially or with the upkeep and other work. It's fair to say I have half an eye on resale value when it comes to certificates, but I would not want to be that person taking advantage of a club. That's why I proposed being up-front with a fair fee for services rendered.

Pete

[Pete VerdonParticipant @peteverdon79012]

I think I'm going to take Ian's advice and just run it on air to see the machinery working. I'll need to buy a compressor; can anyone suggest a rough idea of what flow rate (CFM) I should be looking for?

I do need to decide whether I'm buying this compressor just for the lorry, or whether I might also want to get into the world of air tools for general use. Obviously in the latter case it's worth buying a decent compressor, but I'm unlikely ever to do much spraying and I already have a reasonable complement of electric power tools.

Presumably, given the mixing of oil into the steam that Jason describes, I need oil mixed into the air too. I know proper workshop tool compressors add oil, but maybe a small one won't. Is the oil necessary if running on air, and if so is there a cunning way of introducing it or does it have to enter the engine pre-oiled?

I'm not going to pursue the boiler testing; the bureaucracy seems insurmountable for someone who is not interested in joining a club. A cynic might wonder if that was deliberate

Thanks,

Pete

Edited By Pete Verdon on 09/07/2014 17:42:29

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Engines run on air don't need as much oil as air doesn't wash it away like steam, and it can be a lighter grade of oil, too.

> I'm not going to pursue the boiler testing; the bureaucracy seems insurmountable for someone who is not interested in joining a club. A cynic might wonder if that was deliberate

No, it's the other way round, the bureaucracy has forced people to come together and find affordable routes to getting their boilers tested. Club membership costs a fraction of an independent test, and most builders of steam locos will need a club track anyway!.

Neil

[Pete VerdonParticipant @peteverdon79012]

Club membership costs a fraction of an independent test – but as Julian points out, it's unfair on the club to join it just to get a cheap test when you have no intention of properly participating. The honest approach would be to allow non-members' kit to be tested in exchange for a donation to the club's funds. By all means set the price higher than the club joining fee if you want to encourage membership, but making it mandatory drives the silly "fake member" situation that people find so annoying.

There's an analogous situation in my field, sailing. Many countries abroad require an International Certificate of Competence, a kind of boat driving license, so for holidays or foreign voyages we need to get one. In the UK, the government has arranged for the Royal Yachting Association (the national club) to issue them. If you're an RYA member you get it free (with the necessary proof of competence etc) whereas non-members have to pay a fee. The non-members' price is £5 more than the price for joining up, but plenty of people choose that option.

Pete

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

You can still use the mechanical lubricator when running on air, just use a lighter non steam oil. It should look something like the brass box in teh middle of this picture.

Do try and find any paperwork that came with the kit, it will include teh original 2x working pressure test that was done by the makers and will help when it comes to selling.

I would say 8-10cfm displacement if you want to run it along rather than just ticking over and thats the sort of displacement a lot of tools need.

J

[Pete VerdonParticipant @peteverdon79012]

Yep, I know what the lubricator looks like. I'd been puzzling over the almost identical device on the traction engine at my dad's house, then when googling for steam oil I found a reference to one pump stroke per 30 or 40 piston strokes, and I immediately realised that was what the mystery mechanism was doing.

No sign of any paperwork for the lorry (it is a Pride of Penrhyn, by the way) but I did find the original plans and the boiler maker's certificate for the traction engine, which I'll hand over to my dad to keep with it. The certificate was dated 1984, when I was two, and I remember him still working on that model when I was a lot older than that!

Thanks for the compressor figure – I'll hit eBay tomorrow and see what I can find.

Pete

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

In some of the above there was the sort of impression that you might add oil to air sopply when running off the compressor. You must avoid that. You don't want oil entering the boiler itself too much. Also very little is needed from the mechanical lubricator on air as it isn't carried away so easily like it is with steam.

The common small compressors about the size of a sheep dog have a 140 litre tank but I can't remember the cfm. This size is great for most modellers and will run an engine, blow up car tyres and waft away dust. However it is not big enough for an air hammer, needle descaler, or sand blaster which you might want for your other hobby.

[Pete VerdonParticipant @peteverdon79012]

"About the size of a sheepdog" – that's a new one on me when it comes to describing machinery

If I'm oiling the works via the lubricator then I wouldn't add any oil to the air.

Thanks,

Pete

[Oompa LumpaParticipant @oompalumpa34302]

Posted by Pete Verdon on 10/07/2014 17:10:25:

"About the size of a sheepdog" – that's a new one on me when it comes to describing machinery

Pete

here you go, bit of a guide, sheep and a dog:

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

I seem to have been way off. The tank is only 25L now I can look at mine. It doesn't say the cfm though.

I would class your little dog as a paint sprayer size only.

[Oompa LumpaParticipant @oompalumpa34302]

Posted by Bazyle on 10/07/2014 22:10:00:

I seem to have been way off. The tank is only 25L now I can look at mine. It doesn't say the cfm though.

I would class your little dog as a paint sprayer size only.

Hmm. I have other dogs, one is sort of Polar Bear size. I will find a Pic.

graham.

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