Infrastructure Engineering

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Just when the march to Electric Vehicles is gaining momentum … somebody has noticed:

Multi-storey car parks across the country could be at risk of collapse as heavier electric vehicles put pressure on ageing infrastructure, experts have warned.

Source: The Telegraph

MichaelG.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Just repaint the bays at a wider spacing and stick solar panels on the top floor.

Most round here are not as full as they used to be 10-15 years ago so not upto capacity anyway. Far less office workers to fill a space all day and people are not using the High Streets either shopping online or going to out of town stores where there is room for single storey parking.

Edited By JasonB on 09/04/2023 07:49:10

[bernard towersParticipant @bernardtowers37738]

Surely the solar panels are not the lightest of things?

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Got to be lighter than a bunch of SUVs

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Another snippet:

Chris Whapples, a structural engineer and car park consultant and the author of the new guidance, told The Telegraph: “I don’t want to be too alarmist, but there definitely is the potential for some of the early car parks in poor condition to collapse.”

“Operators need to be aware of electric vehicle weights, and get their car parks assessed from a strength point of view, and decide if they need to limit weight.”

New electric vehicles are much heavier than the average petrol or diesel car. EV batteries account for much of this, usually weighing around 500kg.

.

Now … some might argue that CW is drumming-up business, but I think it’s a valid point

MichaelG.

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Ref. __ https://www.stripeuk.com/team/chris-whapples/

and here, the story without the Newspaper gloss:

 https://www.newcivilengineer.com/latest/rise-in-evs-could-have-implications-for-car-park-structures-04-04-2023/

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 09/04/2023 10:19:21

[Tony Pratt 1Participant @tonypratt1]

Don't worry guys, like everything else the donkeys in charge will be on the case.

Tony

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

Beats me how they're going to charge all those cars

Takes ages just to get my kettle boiled in the am

[Dave HalfordParticipant @davehalford22513]

Reminds me of a story from the 70's

There was a new multi-story carpark built in Aston B'ham not far from the HP Sauce factory that was not built strong enough for cars and ended up being the home of the West Mids police mounted unit.

Truth or fiction? Not sure, but we thought it funny.

[MichaelRParticipant @michaelr]

If all that extra weight is going to be a problem for Multi- story car parks, the extra weight of all those EVs are going to have some effect on the already not fit for purpose road surfaces resulting in more damage.

MichaelR

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

They built a new shopping center in Bournemouth about 20 years ago and had trouble with the car park. The concrete wasn't strong enough and poor design. It was supported with hundreds of acro props for a year or so while they sorted out liabliity and a solution. Lots of pillars and beams added.

https://www.dorsetecho.co.uk/news/5414006.castlepoint-warning-over-car-park-flaws/

[Trevor Drabble 1Participant @trevordrabble1]

The surface car park at New Miller Dam in Wakefield is , or at least was , marked 30 cwt maximum safe vehicle weight. My large old 7 seater Citroen DS estate weighed 33cwt.

[Mick B1Participant @mickb1]

What about bridges, car ferries, etc., if a similar volume of traffic weighs 50% more?

They need to remark car parking spaces anyway – some I know look as if they were designed for 1960s Austin A40s and 1100s.

[Bob Unitt 1Participant @bobunitt1]

Posted by Dave Halford on 09/04/2023 10:55:25:

Reminds me of a story from the 70's

There was a new multi-story carpark built in Aston B'ham not far from the HP Sauce factory that was not built strong enough for cars and ended up being the home of the West Mids police mounted unit.

Truth or fiction? Not sure, but we thought it funny.

Similar story from early this century – a city hospital (Hereford, IIRC) was having an extension built, and decided to make the roof an ambulance-helicopter pad, to increases the car-parking spaces. Before the extension was even finished they bought a new helicopter, which was too heavy for the rooftop helipad. Needless to say the car-park ended up with even less spaces than before they started, as the (larger) helicopter had to land there instead.

Edited By Bob Unitt 1 on 09/04/2023 13:45:31

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

Posted by Mick B1 on 09/04/2023 13:35:53:

What about bridges, car ferries, etc., if a similar volume of traffic weighs 50% more?

They need to remark car parking spaces anyway – some I know look as if they were designed for 1960s Austin A40s and 1100s.

I'm the opposite, they need to stop making chelsea tractors and other huge domestic vehicles/vans

Anything bigger than a ford focus citroen berlingo should be classed as an industrial vehicle and require a HGV type licence

Stupid barely describes some of the monstrosities driving about nowadays, and I'm not even a treehugger

Edited By Ady1 on 09/04/2023 14:07:44

[JellyParticipant @jelly]

Posted by Ady1 on 09/04/2023 14:00:23:

Posted by Mick B1 on 09/04/2023 13:35:53:

What about bridges, car ferries, etc., if a similar volume of traffic weighs 50% more?

They need to remark car parking spaces anyway – some I know look as if they were designed for 1960s Austin A40s and 1100s.

I'm the opposite, they need to stop making chelsea tractors and other huge domestic vehicles/vans

Anything bigger than a ford focus citroen berlingo should be classed as an industrial vehicle and require a HGV type licence

Stupid barely describes some of the monstrosities driving about nowadays, and I'm not even a treehugger

Edited By Ady1 on 09/04/2023 14:07:44

I can see where you're coming from as we've seen a proliferation of taller fatter "crossovers" replacing the large estate car segment, most of which have smaller interior space and payload, and worse fuel efficiency than a similarly sized estate. It's a really dumb trend which doesn't serve anything but aesthetics.

 

But:

1) Large estates are actually pretty huge by car standards, I've had a 406, a Volvo 940, two Mondeo's, a Skoda Superb and a Passat at various points, all of which are as long or longer than a SWB Transit, the VW Transporter or a Mercedes Vito, and similar weights, with similar payloads (the Mondeo's would carry a full 1 tonne, the only difference is form factor.

2) From a driver education perspective, large vans are not appreciably different to drive to a large car, just require a bit more care and spatial awareness.

 

I've spent many a day driving around in a 7.5M long Iveco Daily, because those were the pool vans that work had, and other than needing to pay attention to where the back end was, it really wasn't that different to driving my Mondeo.

If I was able to borrow the one SWB ford transit then it was literally the same size (and a surprising number of the same components) as my Mondeo, the handling was about the same too.

Totting it up when I was leaving my last job, in the 12 years I was in field service, project engineer and national manager roles, I did nearly 760,000 miles, of which well over 500,000 were in very large vans. Nae bother.

 

The existing C1 licence for 3.5-7.5t goods vehicles doesn't really make sense anymore with the improvements in large vans either, the dailies I was driving can be updated to 7t with nothing more than new rear springs and drive completely differently to a old school 7.5T like a eurocargo with the air brakes and cabover design which is much more like a HGV, and requires a much higher level of driver awareness/attention.

 

I currently have a reasonably big pickup as my only vehicle (live down a muddy track up a hill, tow a trailer and use it for winching), and frequently amuse myself with how people driving much smaller SUV's, crossovers and even hatchbacks failing miserably to park, maneuver and judge the space around themselves on the road; it's particularly gratifying to see them fail only to slot the lumbering mass of my Hilux in first time.

My partner normally drives an MX5 these days, but can hop in the Hilux and manoeuvre it just as well as I can, having initial started driving in a hand-me down Mondeo, and having been expected to drive pickups, vans and tractors as part of her job as an Agri-Biologist.

 

My conclusion is that it's drivers and not vehicles that are the problem, we should be requiring people to take their test in larger cars with a larger turning circle representative of the most awkward vehicles they will drive, not pass in a Polo then drive a Range Rover or a Ford Kuga badly, there are already minimum size, payload and turning circle requirements for the higher licence classes to make them representative tests, so it could be done.

But far more importantly we should require mandatory periodic retesting or update training for all drivers, a bit like the commercial driver CPC scheme…

This is sometimes suggested as an age related thing, but that's wrong headed, my grandmother could drive with the best of them well into her 80's, but I have friends who have had licences for only 5 years who I honestly wouldn't get in a car with because they've allowed their skills to atrophy.

 

The reason I feel strongly that light commercial vehicles should be a core part of the standard "Catagory B" licence is that it would otherwise takes away another layer of people's ability to do things independently without paying out to some company.

Having to shell out upwards of 5k to get an additional license to hire a van for the day or run my pickup would have made impossible to pursue my existing hobbies, impossible to help friends out with recovering and repairing their vehicles, and added hundred if not thousands of pounds to the cost of the 7 house moves (yay rental market!) I've had to do in the last decade; it would also have imposed huge costs on my former employers to either maintain an even bigger vehicle fleet, or get large numbers of staff on an additional license.

Edited By Jelly on 09/04/2023 15:17:40

[Phil WhitleyParticipant @philwhitley94135]

The charge for electric has come up to some sudden resistance in the EU! A vote was held recently to decide IF they are going to stop making ICE's and Italy, Germany, Poland and Rumania voted against it. this put the total vote to 43% of the EU, and as the break point is 35% it has gone on their statute book last week I believe, so it seems that the EU are NOT goingto stop making IC engines, Add to that the fact that Toyota, the world largest auto maker are not going to produce any more EV's and the whole EV position is looking very shaky! As has been said above, the huge extra weight of an EV is going to play havoc with roads bridges and car parks, to say nothing of the massively accelerated tyre wear, and the pollution from the amount of extra rubber particles they produce.The Emperors backside is showing!

[GeorgineerParticipant @georgineer]

Posted by Jelly on 09/04/2023 15:17:26:

I can see where you're coming from as we've seen a proliferation of taller fatter "crossovers" replacing the large estate car segment, most of which have smaller interior space and payload, and worse fuel efficiency than a similarly sized estate. It's a really dumb trend which doesn't serve anything but aesthetics.

Not so! It serves vanity and one-upmanship as well!

George

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

Since this has morphed into a car topic. What do people think is the ideal vehicle for a Model Engineer and is there a hybrid version available?

I'm inclined towards a van based car like the Berlingo etc to get a nice load space without a boot lip and also not as long as an estate so the loco and occasional lathe can slide in easily. Plus all the other 'can you move my fridge' type requests we get.

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

Ex mobilty Fiat Doblo.
Built in ramp and winch….

[JellyParticipant @jelly]

Posted by Robert Atkinson 2 on 09/04/2023 15:55:55:

Ex mobilty Fiat Doblo.
Built in ramp and winch….

Ok that's pretty hard to beat for all round practicality.

[David AmbroseParticipant @davidambrose86182]

I can’t find anything about Toyota not making electric cars. They have said that they won’t invest in the U.K. to make EVs, and that they are reviewing their global strategy, because they are finding that Tesla are better than them at manufacturing, and they need to catch up. That is quite an admission from the company that virtually invented modern volume production.

[Mick B1Participant @mickb1]

I've had various estates over the decades, including Mondeos and Focuses, and they all worked. I'm happy now with a VW Touran. It's moderate on footprint, economical, reliable and spacious. What's not to like?

[BazParticipant @baz89810]

Ideal car for a Model Engineer, got to be a Land Rover Discovery, will tow just about anything and with the rear seats folded flat there is about 6 foot by 4 foot load space, swallows a couple of Myfords in the back and most importantly the spare wheel, full size not stupid skinny thing is mounted underneath so you don’t have to empty the load space to get the spare out at side of the road.

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

Posted by Robert Atkinson 2 on 09/04/2023 15:55:55:

Ex mobilty Fiat Doblo.
Built in ramp and winch….

But it's a Fiat, the only truly dreadful car I ever owned was a Fiat Punto, same fault on the power steering three times, the roof went rusty round the windscreen because of a built in water trap, even the clip holding the sun visor up broke. I paid for the first power steering replacement, that failed in less than a year so was replaced under warranty, when it went the third time I traded it in. When the sun visor went I thought I'd get one from a scrapper, Internet said don't bother, they all go in the same way. Oh and the head gasket went. My garagiste said they all went in the same place. We're now a Skoda family, 3 Fabias and 3 Octavias. The only fault has been the wiring twixt doors and main body, but that didn't manifest until the car was 10 years old, and wasn't stunningly expensive to fix. Volkswagons for people who are spending their own money.

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