Inexpensive inverter mig welders

[pgk pgkParticipant @pgkpgk17461]

Since this thread is still in my memory I thought I'd add a heads up that Lidl are doing their parkside gasless MIG (OK, flux wire) welder again next week with assorted diameter wire reels on sale too

I have wondered about owning one but their site doesn't specify the duty cycle and thre stick welder I have from them has such a poor duty cycle that I ind it frustrating but the wire reels may be compettaive? And of course Lidl do a good 3yr warranty.

pgk

[Dave HalfordParticipant @davehalford22513]

The set seems to have a nice low current setting, so ought to be good for car work. The max thickness setting is ambitious in the extreme, much like the Parkside plasma cutter that I own. Halve any metal thickness figure they claim.

The duty cycle may be on the box. I have not tripped the cut out on the plasma, but the cuts I need in 3mm steel only needs a run time of less than 5 mins. I would assume around 30%, the actual figure will be in the manual that comes in the box.

[bernard towersParticipant @bernardtowers37738]

Sorry but no such thing as a good cheap mig welder, reliable current and wire speed control come at a premium!

[Ron LadenParticipant @ronladen17547]

Well I have a welder I went for new in the end. I was looking at second hand but most of them far too big for my small shop plus I couldnt find anything local. The first job for the welder is building a driving trolley for the class 22 and I want to get on with it so rather than wait for the right second hand machine to come along I bought new.

Its a Sip T141P stick welder, although new its a transformer type 40-140 amps, it came with a pair of gloves, wire brush some 6013 rods and a mask for £80. The mask is really basic but it works though I will order an auto mask.

I have been having a bit of a practice but a quarter of that time was spent trying to avoid sticking rods…lol.

Once I had an arc it went quite well though but I can see it will need a fair amount of practice to become a half decent welder, good fun though.

Edited By Ron Laden on 29/05/2021 20:50:34

[pgk pgkParticipant @pgkpgk17461]

Practice is everything and I don't get enough reason to use my cheap stick welder. It's not too bad if I can sit with arms rested on something to steady and then my practice beads look decent and I can deal with the starting off and avoiding the rod sticking. Unfortunately most of the practical reasons I;ve had to use the welder have been in more awkward case scenarios and then getting the bead started had been more problematic .Also aggravated by s short duty cycle. Like many of us my shed really isn't suitable for indoor grinding/welding.
Getting rid of the hand held mask and using an autodarkening jobbie is the first step to being able to support the welding arm and made a huge difference.
This thread caused me to go look at current offerings and I see there are some multifunction machines around – combo stick,mig, flux wire and lift-tig that also provide antistick on the MMA around the £250 figure (plus extras if one wants to go gas/tig later). I guess mutlifunction leaves compromises and yes those machines generally should have a 32A supply (unless being careful with settings/limitations/extension cords) but at the power settings I'm likely to use a 60% duty cycle looks good.
Comments?

pgk

[Ron LadenParticipant @ronladen17547]

Thanks PGK, yes I can see that lots of practice is needed and an auto darkening mask will be a help in leaving both hands free. I have got the sticking rod down to 3 or 4 before achieving the arc which is better than the dozen or more I was getting.

A close up picture of a weld from this morning which I thought not too bad, it's a bit neater than I thought I would get though it could be better I know. The driving seat I am going to build will be 1 inch x 14swg box so have ordered some 2.0mm and 2.5mm rods as I think the 1/8th rods I have will be too heavy.

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

Nice weld but the flat straight ones make us think we're getting good

Then we try a vertical or a corner….

2.5mm was my preferred size because it just laid enough metal, 1.6 and 2.0 rods don't last long at all

I got fed up cleaning slag off, half my time was spent cleaning up welds

The cheap gasless mig on the other hand arcs instantly and only leaves some soft dust which can be brushed off

Edited By Ady1 on 30/05/2021 10:08:23

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi Ron, 1.5 or 2mm should be large enough for 14 SWG steel. You weld isn't so bad, but the profile should be much flatter, you may have it a little too cold and thus getting a build up of metal, your ripples should look more like a bracket shape like this (((((((((( so you may be moving too fast as well. But don't give, practice will help just keep trying different settings and different electrode sizes.

Regards Nick.

[StueeeeParticipant @stueeee]

Posted by pgk pgk on 30/05/2021 09:02:40:

This thread caused me to go look at current offerings and I see there are some multifunction machines around – combo stick,mig, flux wire and lift-tig that also provide antistick on the MMA around the £250 figure (plus extras if one wants to go gas/tig later). I guess mutlifunction leaves compromises and yes those machines generally should have a 32A supply (unless being careful with settings/limitations/extension cords) but at the power settings I'm likely to use a 60% duty cycle looks good.
Comments?

pgk

I think that you might be better off thinking about the type welding you do and get a machine that is specifically for that purpose. e.g. If your welding tasks require a lot more finesse than your existing buzz box arc welder, maybe a TIG welder would be best for you. On the other hand If you are going to be doing a lot of repair work on thin sheet metal, then a MIG welder would be very useful.

The "combination" machines I've used seem to compromise each function to some extent. In a MIG welder I'd want an internal gas solenoid and a industry standard Eurotorch fitting as a minimum.

For a TIG welder I'd want it to have HF (High Frequency) arc starting, internal gas solenoid rather than a gas valved torch. And ideally the facility to fit a current control foot pedal, or failing that, the ability to set a specific current upslope/downslope (so-called 4T operation)

Edited By Stueeee on 30/05/2021 10:41:14

[pgk pgkParticipant @pgkpgk17461]

Posted by Stueeee on 30/05/2021 10:39:23:

I think that you might be better off thinking about the type welding you do and get a machine that is specifically for that purpose. e.g. If your welding tasks require a lot more finesse than your existing buzz box arc welder, maybe a TIG welder would be best for you. On the other hand If you are going to be doing a lot of repair work on thin sheet metal, then a MIG welder would be very useful.

The "combination" machines I've used seem to compromise each function to some extent. In a MIG welder I'd want an internal gas solenoid and a industry standard Eurotorch fitting as a minimum.

For a TIG welder I'd want it to have HF (High Frequency) arc starting, internal gas solenoid rather than a gas valved torch. And ideally the facility to fit a current control foot pedal, or failing that, the ability to set a specific current upslope/downslope (so-called 4T operation)

Edited By Stueeee on 30/05/2021 10:41:14

My reality is that any welding I'm likely to do will be outdoors so antistick stick and flux wire would be the priorities and a decent duty cycle . By the time I'm into machines that do that then it appears the price point is similar to a poor man's added tig if i ever wanted to get into playtime…

Ron Laden

It's a start and having the second hand free will make a huge difference. or a mere inch material, tacking it and the running short beads probbaly means getting better at scratch start than i ever do. You're also aware to keep those rods dry or dry them before use. Depending on the design of your trolley I might consider making up some solid inserts for corners and T's to reduce weld warp and blow through?

pgk

[noel shelleyParticipant @noelshelley55608]

For most light work an EW9 shade will work, and in bright working conditions you will JUSt see outlines. Auto darkening masks are costly and break ! One that fits on your head, once properly adusted so that a nod of the head will cause it to drop gives TWICE the viewing area. Use the plastic clear lens. It's all I've ever used ! Noel.

[Ron LadenParticipant @ronladen17547]

Thanks for all the advice guys, much appreciated.

A couple of questions:

Keeping the electrodes dry..? My workshop is reasonably dry in that I never see condensation on my machines and my tools don't rust. Is that dry enough or do I need to store them in some way to make certain?

In the videos I have been watching I have seen a couple of people holding the rod holder in one hand and using the other hand to hold the electrode. I can see that it makes sense in keeping the rod very steady but is it advisable or bad practice.

Ron

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi Ron, nothing wrong with holding the electrode steady with your other hand, but it will get very hot, but there again you should be wearing proper welding gauntlets when you are doing any arc welding. It is best to keep welding electrodes in their packaging and in a cabinet, ideally with some form of low heating inside it, a light bulb was always favourite years ago at work.

Regards Nick.

Edited By Nicholas Farr on 30/05/2021 12:49:22

[noel shelleyParticipant @noelshelley55608]

Not sure if modern houses have them, but I always store mine in the airing cupboard. Plan B is to stub them on the work and hold till too hot then watch the steam rise, then their dry ! Noel.

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi, yes shorting out the electrode to let the welding current to flow through and dry them is a old trick, but in some places you would get your marching orders, especially if you did it on the work you were welding, an industrial welder would cope with such behaviour, but it's not something I would recommend for a DIY welder, as it will make the cut out operate sooner and could also shorten it's life if done frequently. Shorting out the electrode can damage the properties the the coating that produces the shielding and the protective slag, the action of shorting can also produce hard zones in the area that you are stabbing it on, which can lead to fractures, even those caused by corrosion. There are usually drying times and temperature included in the manufacturers specs, for damp electrodes. Long periods of dampness and wetness can also deteriorate the coating on the electrode, which will more than likely cause porosity and sub standard welds. It's always best practice to prevent them getting damp in the first place.

Regards Nick.

Edited By Nicholas Farr on 30/05/2021 18:19:10

[noel shelleyParticipant @noelshelley55608]

Hi Nick, I agree whole heartedly with what you say BUT the context here is diy, not industrial perfection. I have had to repair the damage an unfortunate hammer blow has caused to a 2" shaft – several times. Thankfully we don't hear of many failures or accidents due to poor practice – in the amateur world. Sadly we see far to many failures due to lowered safety factors rather than what looks right – modern parlance is "over engineered "in huge engineering projects. In this context we can do our best to help this fellow to avoid the worst pit falls and achieve his goal. Noel

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

Adding to Nick's safety advice, about gauntlets, you should cover yourself pretty thoroughly.

Though the exposure to UV radiation by intensity and time is far lower in our activities than in full-time factory work with industrial-capacity equipment, it still seems to me sensible to expose as little skin as possible to the glare.

I don't have welding gauntlets sold as such, but wear thick leather gloves, plus one-piece boiler-suit buttoned up and auto-darkening mask that covers most of the face. (I know it does because it tends to pinch my ears when I lower it!).

I switched to the full-face mask on a headband, later the automatic form, because my welding is so hit-and-miss I was often giving myself accidental flashes when using a hand-held shield. As for those hand-held things sold with the cheaper DIY transformers… well.

Also safety boots, mainly for me as protection from the spatter my welding usually produces; and safety-glasses for when slag-chipping.

'

Avoid inhaling the fumes, too. They are not good for you, and can be carcinogenic though again I do not know the risk to us by our far lower exposure to the hazard. Surprisingly perhaps the link to cancer appears to have been discovered only quite recently, but perhaps that was due to past cases being disguised by parallel causes, particularly smoking and asbestosis.

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi Noel, it may be DIY and I am fully aware the the limitations of DIY welding equipment, but in my opinion, that is not an excuse to not encourage acceptable good practice, whether one takes good advice is up to them and while what failures they may have that may be caused by bad practices which might result in injury to themselves, it should not extend to other people. Many DIY's make car trailers using these types of welders and they have to be roadworthy and one may well get prosecuted if such causes injury due to poor work, so in my opinion, good practice should always be encouraged. Personal PPE should also be encouraged to be used as well, personally I don't even make a tack weld without all my welding gear on. I've seen videos of people welding with just a Tee shirt and even short trousers, very bad practice even for DIY welding, and your eyelids are not adequate protection against the rays from an arc, so a welding shield should always be used whenever one strikes an arc no matter even if it is a tack.

Nigel, an arc from a DIY welder has the same fundamental characteristics as from an industrial welder, so if you are using a 2mm welding electrode on either a DIY or industrial welder, the intensity of the arc will be pretty much the same as far as radiation is concerned, but of course, most people will not use them for the same length of time that one would in a workplace, so the same safety features with using them, should be the same you would at work. Cancer from welding fumes has been known about for as long as I have been working, but more awareness and stringent measures to prevent inhalation of welding fumes has had more legislation implementing them in the last twenty years or so.

Regards Nick.

Edited By Nicholas Farr on 31/05/2021 07:00:58

[David CauntParticipant @davidcaunt67674]

Only find the need to weld something occasionally so I keep my box of rods in the airing cupboard and only take out what I need for any particular weld. I also found that using thin rods to weld body work it helped cutting the rods in half it stopped them vibrating when trying to strike an arc.

My Oxford welder bought in the 1970's I mounted on a trolley so it isn't a problem to move around. The SIP I can just about carry.

An automatic mask did make a real difference.

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi David, in my early days we used to use a lot of Murex Vodex 3.25mm electrodes which were 450mm long, which some of us used to cut in half, as they would wobble like a good 'un, don't have that problem now though. Airing cupboards are an OK to store them in.

Regards Nick.

[Ron LadenParticipant @ronladen17547]

Can I assume that "you get what you pay for" i.e. cheap versus more expensive which applies to most things also applies to electrodes and can there be a lot of difference in their performance.

The Sip welder came with some 6013 rods and I guess they will be of the cheaper variety but they work and despite my inexperience I am producing welds which are much cleaner, neater and more presentable (though not perfect) than I imagined I would get when starting out. I have also cut through some of my practice welds and the penetration seems half decent, my worry was am I just laying a line of surface weld with no strength.

So is it worth always buying the more expensive brands, do they perform better, can they be easier to use I suspect they probably do and for a beginner it would be good to know that any issues are not the fault of the rods.

Ron

[pgk pgkParticipant @pgkpgk17461]

Posted by Ron Laden on 01/06/2021 05:44:51:

Can I assume that "you get what you pay for" i.e. cheap versus more expensive which applies to most things also applies to electrodes and can there be a lot of difference in their performance….

Ron

I'm no longer a believer in that statement. Whilst it might be true that better quality comes at a higher price it doesn't follow that a higher price means better quality.

pgk

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi Ron, the 6013 is a classification number, the quality may not be high, the more expensive electrodes will probably carry a better guarantee of consistency, sound welds and quality that industry demands. A more expensive electrode may or may not work any better for you, but different makes may, whether they are cheaper or more expensive. I've got some I bought from Aldi, and they work fine for myself and produce a very good weld.

AWS Classification

Regards Nick.

P.S. I have no personal or business connection with the company in the link above.

Edited By Nicholas Farr on 01/06/2021 07:30:45

[Ron LadenParticipant @ronladen17547]

Well I now have an auto mask so both hands free and have got into the habit of holding the electrode when the rod is new and full length I find it helps. With a shorter rod length I use both hands to steady the holder and with practice I think I am slowly improving, I am striking an arc much easier now without sticking the rod so much.

Thinking ahead to the 25mm x 14swg box I will be welding up for the driving frame I have watched a few videos on welding thin wall box and avoiding blowing holes into it. One guy suggests using 2.5mm 6011 rods and to move quickly across the joint, too slow and you will just blow holes, it won't be the neatest of welds but should be tidy and a strong joint.

Just wondered what people's thoughts are on that..?

[noel shelleyParticipant @noelshelley55608]

Hi Ron, IF you can find a supplier then yes E6011, but E6013 will be good. One pit fall that the novice finds is that to avoid blowing through they turn the power down ! This can often cause a blow through as you dwell on the spot to try and fuse the metal, too much heat on the spot and pop – a hole ! The MOST important thing is to watch the arc and understand what you see, then act accordingly. IF the current is right then the metal will fuse almost instantly and you will see the two parts melted together in a nice pool and you continue along the seam maintaining the pool to the end ! Too slow = holes or excessive build up, too fast = a poor very weak weld or little weld at all. The right speed comes with pratice and knowing your work. I have boxes of rods that are £20 and £60 both E6013. The £60 ones would be largely wasted on practice work or ordinary downhand. If you watch the weld as it cools from incandesant and it all has the same colour that's good, if there is a bright area it may well be a slag inclusion = not good ! I have sent a PM Good Luck Noel.

Nick, 3.25 VODEX, ah the good old days !

Edited By noel shelley on 06/06/2021 11:30:44

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