Ideal amateur lathe spindle nose?

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by SteveI on 05/09/2017 23:23:01:

Neil, are these flange designs not short taper and face like the camlock?

No, it's a short parallel register that's ideally a close push fit.

As for accuracy the limiting factor is the chuck, not the flange.

Neil

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Neil, you can get both, Emco use a short (5mm or so long) 7degree taper which is better in some respects than the straight spigot as the chucks release easily with a thump from the heel of your hand. There is a DIN spec that covers these short tapers.

J

[SteveIParticipant @stevei]

Neil/Jason, thanks for clearing that up I'd like to read up on that short parallel spigot design. Do you have any reference?

Thanks,

Steve

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Have a google for DIN 55021

[Niels AbildgaardParticipant @nielsabildgaard33719]

Thank You for comments

My first try will be made from a piece of 80mm 16mncr5 steel not casehardened and look like picture with a ER50 collet.

I have turned the stuff and found it nice.

>**LINK**

The real crazy one piece twostroke outboard crankshafts are made from something like this material and this is casehardened and ground somewhere.It must be somehow stressfree.

http://outboardprice.com/image/cache/catalog/parts-accesories/boat-systems/marine-engine-parts/powerhead-and-components/evinrude-3-3l-v6-185-300-hp-outboard-motor-crankshaft-600×600.jpg

I am not sure the 76.18mm grease trap will be reasonably leakfree .

The screw on system may be old but if Schaublin,Boxford and Hardinge (and Myford) has used it so can I and it is easy to make

 

Edited By Niels Abildgaard on 06/09/2017 17:21:34

Edited By Niels Abildgaard on 06/09/2017 17:22:25

Edited By Niels Abildgaard on 06/09/2017 17:25:12

[Niels AbildgaardParticipant @nielsabildgaard33719]

Posted by SteveI on 06/09/2017 08:03:29:

Posted by Thor on 06/09/2017 06:18:34:

Hi Niels,

Unfortunately I don't have a Hardinge lathe, but here is a photo of the pindle nose. Better photos here.

Thor

Edited By Thor on 06/09/2017 06:25:33

Those are photos of the No.5 4° taper nose, not the No. 5 threaded nose. They have over the years offered both types. I would not recommend to Niels to use that taper nose type at all.

I only suggested the No.5 threaded nose because it and chuck backplates are easy enough to make at home and it is very common on indexers, both old and cutting edge new. As I said a little bit like the original Boxford nose but approximately the right size for Niels planned spindle.

Steve

I have tried to understand this Hardinge taper function on Thors second link ,but I cannot.

Can some explain?

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Niels Abildgaard on 06/09/2017 17:30:10:

I have tried to understand this Hardinge taper function on Thors second link ,but I cannot.

Can some explain?

.

Thor's first link does a pretty good job of explaining … but perhaps the drawing on this page will help.

**LINK**

http://www.lathes.co.uk/cataract/

MichaelG.

[Thor 🇳🇴Participant @thor]

Thanks Michael,

Niels, this description is from lathes.co.uk (I hope Tony doesn't mind, he explains much better than I can):

"Although the early UK-made version of the lathe had an ordinary threaded nose, that from the USA had one with a 4° taper – with types both properly hardened and ground. While the taper type allows the rapid mounting and dismounting of spindle tooling, care must be taken to use it correctly: a fine line engraved on the vertical surface of the spindle nose indicates the location of a T-shaped shallow keyway that must register correctly with the chuck or backplate being fitted; original spindle fitments are marked with a line, circle or dimple to assist in this task. The item is then pushed on to the nose and twisted either left or right to lock it. An ordinary pin type spanner can be used to make the final tightening -"

I hope this helps.

Thor

[SteveIParticipant @stevei]

Thor,

It is not easy to explain. It is very very simple. The external taper is a 4° degree taper. (Actually it is 3° 59' 30'&#39 which is locking.

There is a locking pin in the chuck/faceplate/collet closer. As you mate the tapers on the e.g. chuck to the spindle nose you rotate the chuck and the pin traverse up a cut out until at the end it stops further rotation. The chuck has to then get pushed more on to the taper (which it can't) for it to be able to work its way out again. I.e. the pin locks the chuck to the spindle nose. All drive is via the friction between the chuck and the spindle nose. The locking pin needs to not fail other wise disaster. To be honest it makes me a bit nervous with a 6" chuck mounted so I always tighten up the pin before turning on and check the pins are in excellent condition. However it has worked for more than 100 years.

To run in reverse the chuck would have to be rotated relative to the spindle nose so that it locks in the other direction. So you can't just change spindle rotation direction on the fly, and you can't stop a chuck instantly in case its momentum causes it to come free. I've been told this is why the "chuckers" which were more production orientated came standard with threaded nose and not taper nose.

One reason it is obsolete is that theoretically you can have a bit to much force which may cause movement once the cut goes on to deform/tighten the pin in as far as it will go. For an indexer in the mill this movement could ruin your part. This is why all the modern indexers use the threaded nose. Once that registers and is tightened it wont move more.

The internal taper of the spindle is for a 5C collet which is retained via a collet draw tube.

I am told in later years Hardinge offered a D1-3 spindle for the HLV-H. So that tells you something, but what is right for the amateur on a budget is not always what is right for industry.

Thanks,

Steve

[Thor 🇳🇴Participant @thor]

Thanks for the explanation Steve, would have taken me a long time to write that in correct English.

Thor

[Niels AbildgaardParticipant @nielsabildgaard33719]

Thank You for links to Hardinge.

I have been lifted from not understanding to not believing.

How could it have passed the safety commisairs?

Edited By Niels Abildgaard on 06/09/2017 19:10:07

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by JasonB on 06/09/2017 16:34:43:

Have a google for DIN 55021

I think the typical hobby/light lathe flange is less formal than that arrangement and doesn't have the taper.. Arc's website has some numbers and a key drawing you can download.

Neil

[MWParticipant @mw27036]

I still believe using a flanged register and 3 locking bolts is actually the "ideal", when we talk specifically about amateur practice, simply because most of the chucks you're going to be looking at are going to use this, some of them 4 bolts but mostly 3.

Then you can choose which register you're going to make, use one of the popular sizes, largely depending on how big you want your chuck to be.

Michael W

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 06/09/2017 20:26:14:

Posted by JasonB on 06/09/2017 16:34:43:

Have a google for DIN 55021

I think the typical hobby/light lathe flange is less formal than that arrangement and doesn't have the taper.. Arc's website has some numbers and a key drawing you can download.

Neil

I would have included Emco Compact 8 and Prazimat lathes as hobby lathes, both have the Din type nose. the typical far eastern hobby lathe has the straight spigot.

[Ian PParticipant @ianp]

In my opinion for the size and purpose of lathe this thread is discussing the D1-3 has a lot going for it. The only downsides are really that it can be more expensive, and also transferring chucks to rotary tables or just to a milling machine table uses up a lot of daylight.

The critical surfaces on the spindle is straightforward and can be redone, (unlike a large thread and register spigot) without significantly shortening the spindle. Although drilling the intersecting cam and key holes requires a reasonably substantial drilling setup and you only get one go at those! The cams and pins can be purchased as standard items

Ian P

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Thor on 06/09/2017 18:39:51:

Thanks for the explanation Steve …

.

+1

A very clear descripton, Steve … Thank You.

Hardly necessary after that, but; for completeness … the Patent is available here: **LINK**

https://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/originalDocument?CC=US&NR=894634A&KC=A&FT=D&ND=3&date=19080728&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP

Fig.5 being the nose fitting.

MichaelG.

[Niels AbildgaardParticipant @nielsabildgaard33719]

Thank You for all comments and advices.

My son wants the lathe for gun and outboard work ,so a bigger spindle is a must.

The most cited argument against screw on noses is chuck runaway.

The inverter VFD can be programed for braking rate being not to harsh and much high speed work will be held in ER50 collets anyway.

Best argument for screwing on is easy and extremely accurate manufacture in lathe itself.

Bearings are two 32910 (72/50/15)mm taper roller bearing that can be had from NTN in spindle quality and China costing 3$.The latter will be used first.

The modification to headstock is a rather uncritical removal of the grease traps as shown on lower part of picture.

If Science Museum wants to rebuild last remaining Boxford in fifty years time it can be easily done with two narrow discs.

https://imgur.com/a/KnVQ6

Edited By Niels Abildgaard on 06/03/2018 11:39:06

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

Some of the later far eastern lathes have screw on chucks, but with two clamps, held to the back of the chuck with Allen screws, which "hook" behind a flange on the spindle. Consequently, the chuck cannot become loose if the lathe is stopped suddenly, or run in reverse.

If you decided to go down the route of using a flanged spindle, the flange does not have to be integral with the spindle, (thus saving making a LOT of swarf. The flange could be roughed before being welded/ force fitted/ shrunk, or located to the spindle with "dutch keys".

If you are planning to turn your new spindle, you could rough out the new spindle, and flange, weld on the flange and then do all the finish turning for the assembly.

Just a thought!

Howard

[Niels AbildgaardParticipant @nielsabildgaard33719]

I had an attack of old man feeling fit again and bought a ultra longbed AUD of very late model exported to a Danish school just before Boxford closing time.

Much to much money and a piece of junk really.

The headstock rocked 0.08 mm from corner to corner and the skilled UK machinist cannot have been unaware as the front headstock clamp had never been tigthened and bed was dry rusted over 50 years.

 

 

 

I threw complete lathe out and it was a nice kind of having tried it before.

I have had 5 Allegro station cars, 3 Maxis and a Princess and drove all to the scrapper.

After that I had a Punto and a BMW and had one tenth the trouble and drove two times as long.

I ordered a chineese WM210 and had it delivered in my living room 7 days included:

**LINK**

 

The toolholder/compound slide is an absolute disaster but the accuracy is astonishing.

There is no needle movement on the testbar shown.

Its first job was to reduce the spindle flange thickness.

How do I unfold pictures from my album?

 

 

 

Edited By Niels Abildgaard on 16/06/2018 20:45:31

Edited By Niels Abildgaard on 16/06/2018 20:47:31

[John McNamaraParticipant @johnmcnamara74883]

Hi Niels

Having used a lathe with a screwed spindle nose for a number of years, I acquired a new for me lathe with a DIN 5507 nose with a bayonet ring at the back. I would never go back to a screwed nose. I think the bayonet fitting is a better mount than a Camlock nose, Camlock's sometimes work loose.
The bayonet type is rock solid firmly bolting the chuck back face to the nose face.

Both Camlock and DIN 5507 use the same short taper. The only difference is nutted studs versus camlock pins.

Making up a new back plate is not that hard.
If you can find a name brand chuck already machined for the din taper it would give you a template to work from.

Link to types and sizes.
**LINK**

Regards
John

[Mike E.Participant @mikee-85511]

Posted by Niels Abildgaard on 06/03/2018 11:37:31:

Thank You for all comments and advices.

My son wants the lathe for gun and outboard work ,so a bigger spindle is a must.

………………………….

For barrel precision barrel fitting and chamber work, its ideal to have a suitable outboard 4-jaw chuck on the tail end of the headstock, along with a rigid attachment point for an indicator so that you can index the bore with a pin gage. Indexing both headstock and steady ends within .0003 before chambering should give you sub minute of angle capability.

[Niels AbildgaardParticipant @nielsabildgaard33719]

Hello John

Thank You for advice.

After having made the standard chineese cylinder register flange a little narrower in the combat area

fiting and unfitting has become much easier and fast.The  register need not being tapered for me.

I always remove chucks etc end of each sesion.No growing together.

I will make a test rig with the bayonet ring and se if it feels easier.

Am still tempted to make an ER40 nose on spindle.Everything 27mm and less in ER 40 collets and screw chucks,faceplate etc on the locking nut thread (M50*1.5mm) for bigger subjects at lower speeds.

What is Your main dislike with screw on fittings?

Kind regards

Edited By Niels Abildgaard on 18/06/2018 14:39:29

Edited By Niels Abildgaard on 18/06/2018 14:40:10

Edited By Niels Abildgaard on 18/06/2018 15:00:59

Edited By Niels Abildgaard on 18/06/2018 15:11:27

[Niels AbildgaardParticipant @nielsabildgaard33719]

Hello Mike

Thank You for idea of fore and aft chuck spindle.

What minimum spindle hole diameter for hand and hunting weapon work?

Kind regards

Niels

Edited By Niels Abildgaard on 18/06/2018 14:44:18

[Mike E.Participant @mikee-85511]

Posted by Niels Abildgaard on 18/06/2018 14:43:28:

Hello Mike

Thank You for idea of fore and aft chuck spindle.

What minimum spindle hole diameter for hand and hunting weapon work?

Kind regards

Niels

Edited By Niels Abildgaard on 18/06/2018 14:44:18

It depends on what diameter of barrel blanks are available from suppliers. I would say a minimum 1 5/16" spindle hole, which should handle most smallbore target weight and also centerfire calibers you are likely to encounter. If possible, purchase pretapered barrels, as tapering takes hours of time and introduces unwanted stress points along the tube.

When chambering, it is very important to ream slowly, and then STOP when within several thousandths of finish depth, shut the machine off, and let things cool down for a couple of hours before taking the final cut; this will help immensely with getting the chamber depth and headspace correct the first time.

I was into the Benchrest dicipline back in the 1990s, but have been out of the shooting sports game for some time now. I'll post one of my old credentials here for awhile, for consideration of the the merit of my opinions.

.

[Niels AbildgaardParticipant @nielsabildgaard33719]

Hello Mike

Lathe spindles seem to follows MorseTaper sizes.

Boxford and my new WM210 has MT3 and 20.4 mm bore

JasonB has a WM280 I think that has MT4 and 26 mm bore

Some newer amateur lathes less than 200 kg mass has MT5 and38mm bore.

38 mm is what a gunsmith needs then and how long between centres if we make this double chuck spindle You mentioned?

My WM210 can be upped to 26-27mm bore but not 38.

Kind regards

Niels

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