I screwed up!

[OuBallieParticipant @ouballie]

Bazyle,

Oh bollocks, is all I can say!

I put in from the wrong effing side! How bleep bleep clever of me!

Will correct this glaring error and replace the photo.

All of the oil channels are covered by the Saddle, but I'm now able to visually check where to put spring oiling points, the easiest being above the reservoir that has the copper tube leading from it.

Yes, your comments re the drilled holes filling with oil did cross my mind after I posted, but thought I would wait to see who pointed it out first

Still means that that copper tube would, I think, still gulp any oil, thus prevent any getting to the rear channel and holes.

Will get back to the Apron as soon as T-slots done.

Geoff – Time to have words whilst looking in a mirror. Can't believe what I did.

[OuBallieParticipant @ouballie]

All misleading photos have now been removed.

Easier to so than add extra annotations.

New photos to follow ASAP

Geoff – Workshop here I come.

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

More thoughts.

The right hand oil hole looks like a modification after they decided the left hand one was too near the swarf. (note: dictionary doesn’t like this word). You might find some pictures on the web of another version with the filler that side. I suggest drilling a new filler hole in the saddle and block or reduce the copper pipe flow with a bit of pipe cleaner. Make an overflow groove in the old filler reservoir and the furthest point of the other gallery plus give it a very small drain hole so it drains overnight. Then for oiling you fill the ‘new’ reservoir until you see oil appearing in the old one at which point you can assume it has also progressed the same distance along the other gallery. The drain hole is necessary to give you a clean start each time. I now see the inner gallery is open topped in the middle under the cross slide so without the overflow mentioned earlier it will dribble down the outside.

You could also drill another vertical hole from the inner gallery near the worm with a small hole (so it doesn’t rob the gallery) at the bottom outwards. Under this hole put a small diverter tab to lead the oil over the worm. Thus it gets a measured supply at each oiling.

Since each oiling will put 1-2 cc more oil in the sump it will soon start to seep out of the available holes rather messily. If you make one of your drain plugs a tall tube up to a suitable level it will act as an overflow under which you can place a catcher.

[graham howeParticipant @grahamhowe83128]

Hi Geoff,

I think there is a different interpretation regarding the apron and its lubrication. On mine the apron is secured from the top by 4 M8 cap screws located with 2 dowel pins, I am not sure yours is the same. The oil filler cap is on the RH side (Warco type) and I think the long front (oil) groove is not there as a feeder to the spindle bearings but as a means of stopping the oil from spreading to the outside front of the apron. On mine if you look up at the 'join' there is a visible gap along the font joining edge, ie. the saddle base does not mate to the apron, so if there was no groove then the oil would, on filling, seep out and drip down the front of the apron instead of filling the apron. Now, again on mine, if I add a single squirt of oil then after a few minutes oil can be seen just showing from the front spindle bearing ends so I think when the apron is correctly filled with oil it is at the spindle bearing level and any additional oil simply seeps out, as expected. My guess is for those that have the oil filler cap on the LH side (Chester type) the oil when filled needs a feeder thus the copper pipe to just fill the apron and if not present the oil would not find an easy path to the inside. Unfortunately I am not about to strip mine to prove this but assuming there is a reasonable depth of oil in the apron then the motion of the gears will lubricate all bearings and spindles. The Grizzly manual talks of 3/4 pint in the apron but I am not sure how that translates to depth.

The BH600G gearbox and its unusual lubrication drip method I think is more than adequate for a gear cluster that is basically running dry (ie not in a permanent oil bath). The gears need very little oil to work well and mine when delivered had thick grease which just made the gears sticky and work hard when meshing. Most of the bearings in the gearbox are ball bearings and probably need very little direct lubrication. I stripped mine down to remove all the grease and find that the oil drip does work especially as the gears spread the oil when meshing and rotating. If you have any worries it is a ten second job to remove the front cover and wipe over the gear clusters with a very oily rag. My Myford ML7 has a similar homemade gearbox (Machin) and lubrication is by means of removing the top cover and squirting oil over the gears – has worked for 40 years with no fails so I think the BH600G will be ok also.

Hope this helps

Graham

 

Edited By graham howe on 11/09/2013 18:06:55

[MICHAEL WILLIAMSParticipant @michaelwilliams41215]

Hi Geoff ,

Just going sideways :

Many industrial machines have one shot oiling systems .

A multi delivery pulse pump is connected to all the oiling points on the machine by small pipes .

On a regular basis the pump is activated and a slug of oil goes very reliably to all the right places .

Pump is often worked by hand – basically you just give it a thump – but powered ones are used as well .

Connections to fixed sections of machine are easy and for moving parts you have the choice of flexible pipes or on complex assemblies like lathe saddles a second dedicated system could be used .

Parts for one shot oiling systems are available commercially but the basic parts are easy enough to make at home .

Regards ,

MikeW

[Sub MandrelParticipant @submandrel]

If interested, look at: Arc's one shot oiling system

Neil

[OuBallieParticipant @ouballie]

New photos added, with the rack gear drive at the rear, thanks to Bazyle pointing out my error.

Appreciate all the comments and suggestions.

I just need to finish the Cross-slide then I will have a look at what to do about the oiling of Apron & Gearbox.

Geoff – 12hr kip last night!

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

Take Heart! If it is any consolation, you are not alone in your troubles!

But it is a bit worrying that the gears and their shafts may go short on lubrication.

Also, I lack your courage to remove and strip the Saddle.

My lathe is a BH600 lookalike (E.T.R. BL12-24) so it is to be hoped that yours was a Friday afternoon product, or that the channel IS meant to prevent oil leakage. I have filled up the Saddle reservoir at various times, and the level has dropped, so the oil has gone somewhere. (Where intended and needed, I hope, after 10 years of use!).

I made and fitted a fourway indexing Rear Tool Post, to match the Front Toolpost, which can foul the Chuck Guard when working close to the Headstock. To allow me to work close up when using ER collet chucks, I shortened the shaft for the Chuck Guard microswitch, (the guard now fits via a sleeve secured with a grubscrew into a dimple on the shortened shaft).

Inattention allowed me to run the saddle up against the headstock casting under power.

(The feed was slow, but there was plenty of torque available because another mod. was to make a 80T input gear for the Norton box to halve the feed rate. With the compound gear suitably arranged, the minimum feed is 0.0022/rev. This does require the GearCover Closure stud to be repositioned)

Then, the Saddle Traverse Handwheel had tight spots, so I suspected a bent pinion shaft..

1) I drove out the roll pin from the drive shaft and replaced it with a brass pin, in the hope that the next time I am foolish, it will shear.

2) Being scared of stripping out the Saddle, I resorted to brutal methods.

I cut a piece of cardboard (ex cereal packet) and held it against the rack whilst traversing the saddle over the full length of the cardboard. The tight spots were very tight, but removing the cardboard left the saddle traverse without tight spots.

Conclusions.

1) The need to be vigilant and attentive at all times.

2) The pinion shaft must be very soft and malleable, since the elimination of gear/rack backlash by the cardboard bent the pinion shaft back at least part way towards being straight. (At least it appears to have saved the gears from any major damage, so it can't all be bad)

One other problem on the 12-24 was that there was a ball oiler placed, inaccessibly, immediately beneath the Cross Slide feedscrew Handle. I did have the courage to remove the "sliding/surfacing" control assembly. The Ball oiler was removed, and the hole plugged with a short piece of 6mm brass rod. Another hole was drilled on the side facing the tailstock end, and a new ball oiler fitted.

Refitting the control assembly so that the handle was in the right position was a bit fiddly, but "Third Time Lucky" held good.

I can now force oil into the oiler and see it appear at the bearings for the control.

 

Howard

Edited By Howard Lewis on 14/09/2013 17:48:07

[OuBallieParticipant @ouballie]

It's done at last!

Treatment and that horrible winter virus put the mockers on thing for a while.

Putting everything back right now, and all appears to be back to normal, but need to install the Feed Shaft to check that the worm gears mesh properly, as some of the teeth on the gunmetal? gear have been graunched.

I will be doing a separate post on what I did & how, as I think it's important for all the owners of similar machines to know what oiling problems these machines have.

Took a while to come up with a suitable oiling solution, after rejecting many ideas, but I'm happy with the outcome having tested it on the bench.

I now need to sort out the write-up and annotate the photos, so hopefully will post sometime next week.

Geoff – BH my first post was 3rd August!

[OuBallieParticipant @ouballie]

Well, my fear about that graunched worm gear has been proved right!

Started machining the first of the drilling machine vice hold down bolts yesterday and the problem reared its ugly head.

Manual feed is fine as expected, but power feed to the Saddle had the problem surface.

The graunched teeth on the worm gear are causing the Saddle to go through a stop/start soft banging routine, which is neither conducive to getting a good finish nor keeping my nerves intact!

If I continue using power feed, then more teeth will vanish, so I gave up and reverted to having my bare! left hand being hit by hot swarf. Gloves I hear someone shouting. Yes I know, but bl**dy brain still in flippin work to rule mode.

Now I've never cut a gear before, and the thought of even trying to machine a concave form worm gear is just a non-starter and fills me with the heeby jeebies, unless someone has a brilliant solution.

Many of you I am sure could turn one up without so much a batting an eyelid, but I'm not in that exhalted group unfortunately. I've got the books detailing how it's done, but it's all about confidence that is sadly lacking right now for me to even contemplate such a job.

Stupid me never bothered to measure the gear when the Apron was off, but, I do now know how to get the Apron off without too much hassle.

These things do try one at times.

Will try Waro for a spare.

Geoff – Not quite crying into my coffee. "Behave like a man!" from her indoors

[OuBallieParticipant @ouballie]

The good news is that Warco have both the worm gear and Transmission Shaft in stock.

Makes me think that this is an all too popular replacement part.

Just waiting for the shock of delivered prices.

Geoff – Lazy day so should finish the BH600G write-up. I did say SHOULD though.

[Anonymous]

Never, ever wear gloves when operating machine tools; if the glove gets grabbed by the machine or work it'll drag you in willy-nilly. Spare gears may be available but I've never seen spare hands for sale.

The exact form of the teeth on a single enveloping worm wheel has been the subject of some debate on this forum , but it is possible to make one without knowing the precise tooth form. See this thread:

**LINK**

Regards,

Andrew

[OuBallieParticipant @ouballie]

Andrew,

I take your point re gloves, but I don't wear any on my hand/s if they come anywhere near power driven rotating parts.

Saw that YouTube video of that young lad being pulled onto the lathe when a sleeve got snatched by the chuck whilst he was using emery to smooth a rod. His shirt was being pulled from his body before someone had the foresight to stop the machine. It happened in less than a blink of an eye.

Frightening and a salutary lesson.

I followed your threat Andrew, but its way way beyond my ability.

Geoff – Earl Grey cuppa after visit to the Doctor.

[Anonymous]

Posted by OuBallie on 05/11/2013 16:28:13

I followed your threat Andrew, but its way way beyond my ability.

I found out that it wasn't beyond my abilities only by giving it a go.

Andrew

[OuBallieParticipant @ouballie]

https://www.evernote.com/shard/s8/sh/547b885f-6a57-48c8-85e3-5f6b619c27e4/c7fc33ebb7ad0481b906d0d6a3f75eb5M

My write-up on removing the Apron and correcting the oiling problem is too long to post in one go, so rather than faff around trying to find the maximum numb of characters per post, I've uploaded it..

 

Geoff – Second vice bolt nearly done.

Edited By OuBallie on 07/11/2013 14:03:48

Edited By OuBallie on 07/11/2013 14:07:00

[OuBallieParticipant @ouballie]

The Worm gear gave up the ghost whilst parting 22mm steel whilst making the vice hold-down bolts.

Those mangled teeth cried enough and vanished, causing the lathe power feed to stop then start.

I have also noticed tight spots when winding the Carriage which no doubt I'd due to the slight wobble that Gear Shaft I initially bent still has. Just couldn't get it all out.

New parts arrived this morning from Warco, having ordered them 1350h yesterday.

Now if I had access to a second lathe, I would have contemplated slicing the gear off and machining a new shaft.

I don't, so that's academic.

Cannot decide whether to fit the new parts tomorrow/weekend, or make a start on my version of doubleboost's Sky Hook, as the tripod is becoming a pain in the whatsit and getting in the way now that there is a perfect solution.

Geoff – RedBush to the rescue!

[OuBallieParticipant @ouballie]

That Evernote link is horrendously long.

Something far more manageable:

http://tinyurl.com/nkqulby

Geoff – Made a start on the Sky Hook

[OuBallieParticipant @ouballie]

What can I say!
I have at last replaced those two gears that where damaged.

Three videos have been uploaded to my YouTube page, Geoff Halstead,

1st: https://youtu.be/Vbkw0owEV2o

2nd: https://youtu.be/f46rSn41NiI

3rd: https://youtu.be/XSromPLK-LM

but for some reason only one shows up in an iPad browser, but all three in their App!

'Words and Music' available:

Updated version – http://bit.ly/1p45F9i

Original version – http://bit.ly/1TXP0iU

(Cannot believe it's taken me this *^%# long!)

I did have camcorders recording how I removed and replaced the Gear Shaft, but the Kodak camera went belly-up just as the company did, so all I have are short useable clips from the other cameras.
I will do my best editing them to get some semblance of continuity.

I do know that my original description has helped a Forum member, having corresponded with him, and hope it has allayed the fear others may have had about removing the Apron from their machine.

Next will be to finish the Feed Rod Motor (FRoM)

Geoff – I DO get there, eventually

Edited By OuBallie on 04/03/2016 16:52:00

Edited By OuBallie on 04/03/2016 16:58:54

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

Experience allows you to recognise the mistake, as soon as you make it again.

Having been foolish again, I had to remove the Apron to remove the damaged traverse shaft/gear.

Thanks to Geoff for all his guidance, which gave me the courage to have a go at it

Was none too sure about genuine replacement parts, since the original seemed to bend so easily, (despite a 5mm brass pin in the drive) so made my own replacement, eventually. Wasted a lot of time cutting the gear, because the chart in the Vertex HV6 manual was wrong (eventually made up a spreadsheet which showed up eight discrepancies / omissions) Started a thread on here about this.

Eventually cut a new gear, (blank Loctited into the new shaft). Works and feels better than before. Raised oil level in the Apron by turning up a nylon plug for the hole where the Handwheel gear goes into the Apron. Oil is now distributed to the upper gears by the handwheel being turned manually or under power. You know its working, 'cos it seeps past the shafts on the other gears!

When Apron was off, found found the screws for the Worm Housing were loose. Had to shorten and modify a 5mm Allen key to tighten them after Apron refitted. (found this out the hard way! A VERY slow job, but time well spent).

Also found out why the feed control was a bit too notchy, caused by the Leadscrew interlock, but soon cured.

Feedshaft and Leadscrew now both have 5mm brass shearpins, with 2.5mm drilling, so hopefully, in the event of a future pile up, the pin will shear before damage is done.

Now can restart work on the job that I piled up to begin with!

Howard

[Roger HeadParticipant @rogerhead16992]

[Quote]

Feedshaft and Leadscrew now both have 5mm brass shearpins, with 2.5mm drilling, so hopefully, in the event of a future pile up, the pin will shear before damage is done.

[/Quote]

It is now a foregone conclusion that you will never again have another crash/pile-up/whatever.

Roger

[OuBallieParticipant @ouballie]

Howard,

Thanks for the kind comment.

More than happy the 'Words and Music' helped you.

Roger,

Never a truer word spoken!

Geoff – Head cold a thing of the past, so back into the Workshop tomorrow.

[OuBallieParticipant @ouballie]

The workings of the Apron.

This video shows what goes on inside it, something most owners will never see.

https://youtu.be/NdHEYhceCew

Mouth full of teeth on occasion.

Last video for a while as it's taken me more attempts than I had hoped.

The easiest part is the editing, and most definitely NOT the talking bit!

Geoff – Vacuum then Workshop time at last.

Edited By OuBallie on 13/04/2016 09:57:26

Edited By OuBallie on 13/04/2016 09:58:26

[OuBallieParticipant @ouballie]

Double post, but need to keep this thread up-to-date.

Problem found why the Apron is binding when using the DC motor to powe the Feed Rod

It's one of those that you just shake your head at in utter dismay, for failing to recognise what was cause the problem!

Absolutely nothing to do with the set of worm gears, as I at first thought!

It's that bl@@dy spur gear that's out of square and binding.
Only very slightly with Apron off:

**LINK**

BUT locks near solid with Apron back in position:

**LINK**

Either that spur gear has been bored out of square, or the holes for the Gear Shaft, in the Apron casing, have.

No problem with power from the Gearbox of course, there being enough to overcome the binding.

With the original Gear Shaft, there was only a slight hiccup using the first DC motor, but not with the new Gear Shaft fitted.

Have a new more powerful DC motor I will be trying next week.
Had to make an adapted as the motor shaft is so hard I cannot drill it for a drive pin.

I'm now asking myself a single question . . .
Anyone like to hazard a guess as to what it is?

Geoff – Next week will determine if that question is fulfilled.

[Roger HeadParticipant @rogerhead16992]

Geoff, I have read this thread a number of times, and watched your videos even more. They are much appreciated, as I will at some time venture into the apron of my 13×40 machine to search for a niggling surface-finish problem.

However, back to your story: (I have no answers, just a couple of questions of my own!) The first relates to your first video, where you are spinning the gears in the apron. My old eyes cannot see what I think you are suggesting, i.e. that the big gear is wobbling as it is rotated. To me it seems like the two gears, while slightly misaligned, remain in the same relative positions while being rotated. On the other hand, if the gear (or either of them, actually) was bored square but slightly off-centre, then I could understand the cyclic tightening during rotation. Like I said, my eyes are not 100%. It also isn't clear if your video is illustrating the condition with the pin installed, or with it (partially) loose.

The second question relates to the tightening of the feedshaft. Given the very considerable mechanical advantage that is provided by the worm drive, I am surprised that the (apparently) slight binding of the gears, as demonstrated in the first video, could require the effort that you appear to need in the second video.

I guess I'm missing something.

Roger

[OuBallieParticipant @ouballie]

Hello Roger,

Both night owls I see.

As you can see from the time stamp, I suddenly realised the mistake I made that you noticed.

Could of course say it was deliberate, but doubt anyone would believe me, knowing my pechant for brain and fingers not quite inline at times 🤔

First point:

That large spur gear would wobble of course if bored out of square – what can I say?

You are correct that it has been bored off-centre,and just enough to bring the DC motor to a halt, when sending power to either the Saddle or Cross-slide.

Pin installed but only halfway. The first time I banged it all the way in, but that spur gear really went off skew and locked up solid against the other one. The gear remains at the same angle without the pin or when only halfway in.

Second point:

I am as baffled as you are.

With the original Gear Shaft the DC motor had no problem moving the Saddle other that a slight slowing down then speeding up again, all in line with that spur gear being off-centre and binding slightly at regular spots.

Can only surmise that the replacement Gear Shaft has exacerbated the binding somehow.

The DC motor spins the Feed Rod and Worm Gears freely with Apron in position and only comes to a halt when trying to move Saddle or Cross-slide, so it's not the Worm Gears.

I'm at a loss, hence my post.

Geoff – It's going to one of those days, and 'Her indoors' wants a good pub lunch.

[Author]

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