I like a nice tool but..

[Robin GrahamParticipant @robingraham42208]

[Robin GrahamParticipant @robingraham42208]

This is tangentially related to metalwork in that I want to make a nice wooden presentation box for  some brass work. I have to learn how to make box (finger) joints and it seems that I need a fret saw to do them by hand. Prices vary from about £7.99 to:

for £235.

I'd like to know if (and why) paying so much for what seems essentially a simple tool would be worth it even for a professional woodworker. Seriously – I may be missing something, wouldn't be the first time.

I also wonder what feature of the tool qualifies it for a patent. The design and mechanisms shown in the picture  are surely 'prior art' ?

Robin.

 

 

Edited By Robin Graham on 02/08/2023 00:51:47

Edited By Robin Graham on 02/08/2023 01:05:42

[FulmenParticipant @fulmen]

My guess: It's simply better. High rigidity and low weight will make it more precise and easier to work with. And written off over a few decades it's not really a big investment.

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

Expensive tools can be like expensive kitchenware or furniture

The fancy stuff is more likely to hold its price when you come to sell

"its an ercol" or "its a mitutoyu"

Plus it's nice when you get to use it for a few years

[Speedy Builder5Participant @speedybuilder5]

My coping saw can swivel 360 degrees but the saw shown here has a limit of only 45degrees.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Their products are certainly ‘well-reviewed’ by users … and I think Fulmen’s guess is probably spot-on.

My only nagging concern is that the ‘birdcage’ frame occupies a large volume and might be visually intrusive when working … but whether that presents a practical difficulty … I know not.

MichaelG.

.

Edit: __ The patent actually covers the flat-frame version of the saw rather than the bird-cage

https://worldwide.espacenet.com/patent/search?q=pn%3DUS8347513B2

… and don’t be shocked when you see Fig. 1 

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 02/08/2023 06:55:05

[John HaineParticipant @johnhaine32865]

**LINK**

They had to work very hard to get that patent and it's so specific to the construction that it's probably not worth the paper it's written on.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Don't think I'd want to be taking that out to site but looks nice hanging on a wall behind a pristine workbench along with a Hotley plane or two.

Milling machine makes a good finger joint cutter provided your box sides are not too tall.

[Pete WhiteParticipant @petewhite15172]

Personally wouldn't  waste £239 on that, you could get quite a few good bottles of wine instead

£100 ish would get you an acceptable? scroll saw, with plenty of cash in hand for wine 

If you go down the milling route, don't forget spelch blocks at the ends

Pete

Edited By Pete White on 02/08/2023 07:24:17

Edited By Pete White on 02/08/2023 07:31:37

[John HaineParticipant @johnhaine32865]

I can't quite see why they think it is so important to make the frame rigid. Surely the blade should be mounted to cut on the pull stroke, for which the frame is only needed to hold the "far end" in the right place? I always thought that "junior hacksaws" were a waste of time until I tried putting in the blade "backwards"…

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

They type of blade they hold probably makes the biggest difference as they are more like a piercing saw blade and not as high or thick as say a typical Eclipse pegged end blade. This makes it a lot easier to enter the vertical cut and then turn the blade to cut out the waste.

Rigid frame does help if you get a blade going tight on the return stroke as well as being able to wind in a lot of blade tension

[Rod RenshawParticipant @rodrenshaw28584]

Coping saw frames usually allow 360* rotation of the blade and this is often useful for such jobs as cutting out the waste from dovetail joints. But the blade is very coarse compared to a fretsaw blade.

For finer and more delicate work, including watch and clockwork, most fretsaw and piercing saw frames do not allow any rotation of the blade at all, so the frame shown in the OP is a distinct improvement and if one were using it all day long then the lighter weight might be helpful. Whether it's worth the money is a matter of opinion.. Fret and piercing saw blades are both held by clamps and are interchangable, but a coping saw blade is pinned and so is not interchangable with the first two, I have sometimes thought of trying to make a fret /piercing saw frame with 360* rotation but not tried it so far.

Rod

[Bo’sunParticipant @bosun58570]

KNEW also have a flat frame design that's not 3D titanium, and at a much more reasonable price. I have one and it works perfectly. Why I'd want a fancy 3D titanium one is beyond me.

It strikes me, that for some people, it's worthless unless their peer group know what they paid for it.

[Robert ButlerParticipant @robertbutler92161]

Robin

Use a Gents or Dovetail saw both of which which produce fine kerfs. Most of the waste can be removed with angled cuts and a nice sharp chisel used to finish. The saws and chisel referred to are much more controllable than fretsaw or coping saw.

Robert Butler

Edited By Robert Butler on 02/08/2023 09:18:32

Edited By Robert Butler on 02/08/2023 09:22:00

[Clive FosterParticipant @clivefoster55965]

The patent is almost certainly an American "Design Patent" which is basically a more formalised version of copyright protecting certain aesthetic features of a product that the makers consider vital to its appeal.

Pure fluff in engineering terms.

It's tempting to wonder if the elaborate design actually makes any useful improvement in stiffness. A proper engineering analysis would be interesting.

From an engineering perspective titanium is dubious choice of material for something whose purported benefits lie in shape, partial triangulation and wide section, rather than exploitation of material properties. Titanium is a sexy material but it is heavy and difficult to exploit.

Out in the real world good enough is good enough. I suspect any improvements over a well made version of the common design are so far down the marginal end of the spectrum that no one would ever honestly notice. It's awfully easy to convince yourself that the new improved uber expensive version is actually better when seeking justification for the expenditure. Frankly, once good enough performance has been achieved, balance and handling feel count far more when seeking precision operation of such hand held tools than marginal improvements in whatever parameter the sales folk choose to puff up.

Clive

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

I think it’s worth having a browse around the site : **LINK**

https://www.knewconcepts.com/jewelers-saws-and-tools.php

to see how the product range has expanded and developed from what started out as a Jeweller’s Piercing Saw.

MichaelG.

[NealebParticipant @nealeb]

A friend of mine has one of these, although I think it might be the flat rather than 3D version. However, he is rather a fine clockmaker and uses it for crossing out clock wheels rather than wood, which is perhaps a little more demanding. His comment is that it is a bit of a luxury, but it is very nice to use and does allow rather more blade tension than a more conventional frame.

On the whole, I subscribe to the argument that paying a bit too much for a tool that you will use a lot is better than paying too little – although there must be a limit to "too much"!

[John HinkleyParticipant @johnhinkley26699]

I think I've seen Will, of "Repair Shop" fame, using a Japanese dovetail saw for similar jobs, like this one. Chop out the waste with a sharp chisel as Robert Butler has said. Job's a good'un. Far fewer Saki tokens, too.

I like Jason's method, too, if you have a mill, but I would personally add sacrificial pieces either side to restrict break-out of the wood fibres

John

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

The two toolmakers clamps are holding spelch boards to stop breakout, no cut on left hand end and as I have not prestaggered the boards the right side will get cut to final height after milling.

G Clamps also have packing to stop them marking the work

If I do handcut then I use a japanese saw to do the vertical cuts and a standard coping saw to remove most of the waste before finishing with a chisel, when you do it to earn money sawing out most of the waste is quicker. Other options for removing the waste are to clamp say some 2 x 4 to the top of the vertically held board and use a router to cut almost to your line, the 2×4 saves the router wobbling.

Most of the time for dovetails I'll use the leigh Jig, good for repetitive work like 20 draw boxes at a time.

For finger joints it's quite easy to knock up a simple jig if you have a router table, a similar jig can also be used on a table saw with a flat top (zero bevel) blade and suitable guarding

[Mike PooleParticipant @mikepoole82104]

If the “quality remains long after the price is forgotten” then it could be worth the cost. There is with out a doubt some pleasure in using good tools but sometimes a cheapy for a one off job is sufficient.

Mike

[John HinkleyParticipant @johnhinkley26699]

I apologise to Jason for my comments on breakout. I should have known better, given his expertise in woodworking. Now that it's been pointed out, I can see the boards referred to. All I saw initially were two wide grooves. And I learnt a new word – "spelch". Even the spellchecker hasn't heard of that one!

John

[Rod RenshawParticipant @rodrenshaw28584]

+1 for using Japanese saws for dovetails. It's the contrast betwwen the thin, straight, spelchless "perfect" kerf left by the Japanese saw and the wide, rough kerf left by the coping saw that makes me yearn for a fretsaw frame with 360* rotation.

Rod

[Anthony KnightsParticipant @anthonyknights16741]

They do make spiral piercing saw blades (advertised on Amazon for example). These cut in any direction so why need a rotating blade? Just asking.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

I don't see why a 360deg is needed unless you want to go down one side, along the bottom an dthen up the other all with a shallow blade that will wander.

jap saw does the vertical cuts (board held vertically) then coping saw can simply be tilted to horizontal to cut out the waste upto the limit of it's throat. If you have awider board then rotating blade to 45deg is about right so you can saw horizontally without the frame hitting the work.

Like wot the man says

[jaCK HobsonParticipant @jackhobson50760]

Those Knew Concept saws polarise opinions. Some people I respect swear by them, others (who I respect at least as much) see no benefit and prefer tools with character.

I suspect they don't make anyone significantly better. If people like them then fine. My favorite is either the cheapest deep throat eclipse (big knew is getting heavy), the medium one I made – neither are 'stiff'.

I quite fancy a Seth Gould http://www.sethgould.com/standard/jewelers-saw but my small one I got for £10 delivered off ebay (probably 150 years old) is pretty nice.

Edited By jaCK Hobson on 02/08/2023 13:42:38

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