I drilled a hole in the wrong place in the frames…

[simondavies3Participant @simondavies3]

What is the approved method for fixing this?

[simondavies3Participant @simondavies3]

Hello to all clockmakers out there,

i am (slowly) building the skeleton clock serialised in ME several years ago and I have arrived at planting the wheels. Showing my inexperience here (this is my first clock) I have managed to make the holes for the intermediate wheel about 0.5mm too close to the winding drum wheel (sorry for the probably incorrect terminology) where the pinion is about 1.5mm diameter.

My immediate thought was to taper the hole and add a brass taper pin but then I realised that the pinion would then be half in the real frame and half in my plug.

I guess I could also silver solder a pin but wirh similar problems…

Does anyone have any suggestions? ("Remake the frames" and "measure more accurately" are classified as 'unhelpful' BTW ​ &nbsp

Simon

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

I've made the same error. What I did was to drill and ream the holes sufficiently oversize so that they would encompass the pivot in the correct place and then made brass plugs the thickness of the plates and a press fit into the hole. I was then able to mark out the the correct hole position and re-drill. If you can't get a good press fit you could always use Locktite.

How did I get it wrong in the first place?  The brass strip I used to make my depthing tool wasn't straight!

Russell

Edited By Russell Eberhardt on 22/08/2013 14:04:38

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Simon,

As Russell suggests … a substantially oversize bushing would be best.

You could even make a virtue out of necessity, and jewel the hole.

… or show-off a little, by inserting a chaton  

MichaelG.

 

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 22/08/2013 14:18:18

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 22/08/2013 14:29:39

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 22/08/2013 14:09:47:

… or show-off a little, by inserting a chaton

Michael,

It's cruel using a French kitten in that way

Russell.

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

The correct way is as suggested to drill and ream an oversize hole sufficient to completely encompass the location for your pivot. A push fit brass bush is made slightly longer than the plate is thick. This is then rivetted into the plate with a small hammer. Each side is then dressed off with fine files and/or emery sticks and polished. You should be able to do this and not see the join providing the materials are the same.

PS do not deburr the hole or you will get a ring around the bush. The mark of an engineer is not that he doesn't make mistakes but he knows how to fix them when he does.

regards Martin

[simondavies3Participant @simondavies3]

Thank you all for your replies, clearly I am in good company when it comes to having to fix mistakes…

i will try the oversized hole and bush technique but I may leave cleaning it up until I am certain that I have placed the pivot (duh, not 'pinion&#39 in the correct place just in case I need to repeat the exercise.

This is truly turning into an excellent learning process…

Simon

PS Michael, 'Chaton' brings the term 'great height' to mind faster than clock pivots!

[NJHParticipant @njh]

Simon

Martin has it right. After years of footlin' about with ME, for a change, I enrolled on an evening class run by a local clockmaker. He was very successful at repairing clocks but the methods employed were not those of model engineers – his tool box by comparison with ours was rudimentary and I thought MY workshop untidy at times – you should have seen his. It was all a bit of a culture shock! If a hole is in the wrong place or if it is too worn then open it up and put a bush or plug in. As has been said before on this forum forget precision fits with clocks and just make sure everything has clearance and is free to run – friction is the enemy. Once you have done as Martin suggests you won't be able to see where you have inserted the plug. Just think – when some clock repairer comes to look at your clock in a hundred years or so he will likely do just the same with the worn holes on the plates and think nothing of your plug if he finds it. How about a 'photo of your progress?

Regards

Norman

[MICHAEL WILLIAMSParticipant @michaelwilliams41215]

Undoubtedly best way to repair is to insert new metal and re-drill as others have suggested .

Worth mentioning just for interest that some clock repairers are adept at correcting small errors of hole positioning by hammering the plates in a systematic way .

Two methods :

Punching with blunt ended punches near the hole .

Hammering plates over a larger area a little distance away from hole . This works particularly well when clock has pierced plates with relatively thin legs betwen the pivot locations .

These methods are nearer to planishing than to simple swaging methods and plates can usually be left with a largely undamaged surface .

MikeW

[SpringbokParticipant @springbok]

yes mike has it been there t shirt et all; yes this method will save hours of makeing a new part

bob

[RJWParticipant @rjw]

Simon as others have suggested, plug the hole and stake it tight, then dress off the surface, if you have some brass available from cutting the plates, use that then the brass will match!

I personally, would then redrill the hole in the correct place and insert a brass bushing about 3x the diameter of the pivot, (turn one up from the same material as the plug and plates if available), that way with a bush, you won't have a pivot running on dissimilar metal if the new hole runs across the edge of the plug if you've had to use something else – this is how I make invisible repairs on antique longcase and French drum movements!

Sorry Michael, but Please Please Please, to Anyone reading this who is involved in repairing clocks, Don't hammer the plates no matter how tempting, it causes bloody carnage and is hell to rectify and will not put the pivot in the correct place, any clockmaker worth his salt or reputation wouldn't even think about doing it!
Time and Time again, I've had to depth arbours to re-plant pivots because some heathen has belted around pivot holes with a centre punch or 'proprietory' punches designed for just a bodge, which invaraibly pushes the hole out of place!

Always think of the person who is going to follow you years down the line and next in line for repairing that same clock – and maybe undoing your handiwork, many times I've cursed botchers who have wielded punches!

If plates are relatively thin, then ream the plate both sides (tapered reamer) to a tight fit for the bush stake very lightly to secure the bush, but not so as to bruise or bell the plate edges, then solder it into place, once cleaned off the repair will be virtually invisible, And sound!

If you want to see some truly horrific punch ups I'll sort out some photo's in my albums – plus the remedy, many punch marks can't be totally removed sadly and they're an eyesore!

John

[speelwerkParticipant @speelwerk]

I cannot agree more with John about hammering plates, sadly clockmakers use such methods not only out of ignorance but also for economic reasons, you do not get rich from reparing clocks. A good way for fitting bushes in tapered reamed holes, is using tapered bushes, either bought or self made. Place the larger diameter at the inside of the plates and rivet the other side, you will get a perfect fit without the need of using solder. Niko.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

As John says …

Please, Please, Please don't even think of doing this

MichaelG.

[RJWParticipant @rjw]

MichaelG, Brilliant link, best laugh I've had all day, unbelieveable what some people will do, I'm just thankful I didn't have the job of sorting that mess!

Niko, longcase winding barrel bushes in 3mm thick plates running 10mm diameter winding arbours will not take kindly to having new bushes reamed to size, they will turn no matter how tight you stake them, solder is the only way to effect a secure and virtually invisible fit!

These days I actually fit stepped bushes on the barrel arbours as it provides more support via an extra 2mm flange of the front of the plate, and with a 5 kilo weight hanging from them they need it, it slows down wear and is totally reversible should down the line, a restorer with anal views on 'originality' deem them unsuitable!

Smaller bushes are best reamed both sides of the plate with a tapered reamer, a parallel sided bush inserted and then staked, the bushing is then secured both sides of the plate with no chance of them coming out or loose, the solder is just for large bushings, but perhaps I didn't make that clear, apologies if not!

John

As a side note to my last comment, the exception to the solder on large bushings, would be on smaller bushings on American and German clock plates where they carve out so much metal there's near damn all left to suppot the staking of a bush!
If there's a risk of the plate edge 'belling out' when you stake the bush because the hole is close to the edge, solder it rather than deform the plate, if the plate deforms, it changes the pivot depthing and the bush won't be tight!

John

Edited By RJW on 22/08/2013 22:36:01

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Russell's: It's cruel using a French kitten in that way.

Simon's: Chaton … from a great height.

Brightened up the day !!

MichaelG.

[speelwerkParticipant @speelwerk]

John, I had smaller sizes in mind, more like this **LINK** , sorry do not know what they are named in English. Niko.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by speelwerk on 22/08/2013 23:16:50:

John, I had smaller sizes in mind, more like this **LINK** , sorry do not know what they are named in English. Niko.

.

Niko,

For the pre-cut lengths; English borrows the French Bouchon

For long lengths of stock material, it's "Bushing Wire"

MichaelG.

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 23/08/2013 07:55:28

[RJWParticipant @rjw]

Just bushings or less frequently Chatons Niko, Chatons are generally a referance to screw set jewel settings in pocket and wristwatches, where the jewel is set in a brass or gold setting then the whole is screwed into the watch plate – generally only on high grade movements!
often for really small size and odd ball bushings, I'll cut them from a length of bushing wire!

Those bushings shown in the link are certainly small, getting down to pocket watch sizes there, which are similar in sizes to the upper end of French drum and and high grade Vienna regulator wheel trains!
If they work for you and you're happy with the result and make a good repair, I'm certainly not going to argue about them!
You're also fairly unlikely to have a broach jam in a bush and turn it at those sizes!

I have to confess that these days, I use Bergeon bushings together with a Bergeon bushing tool, the bushes are machined to specific sizes and have a related reamer similar to a 'D' bit for cutting holes in the plate, the hole and the bushes are also parallel sided and lightly staked, but they broach easily and make an invisible repair the way i do them, and up to their maximum diameter of 8.5mm, rarely turn in settings, but I'll still solder them in really 'iffy' plate positions such as winding barrels or hammer arbours sitting close to plate edges when I'll touch the hole with a taper reamer so there's a seat for the solder to flow!

That being said, I did originally broach everything by hand and eye, but the final broaching to suit individual pivots still has to be done by hand, because after repairing and burnishing them, pivots are always random diameters!
I didn't mention the Bergeon routine earleir because it's very unlikely anyone here other than a pro' repairer/restorer will have invested that kind of money in kit to re-bush clocks, but for me, it cuts the time to rebush longcase, Vienna and French drums by at least half – I also confess enjoying the luck of the Gods when turning up at an auction room got the whole shebang including a full complement of bushes for half the cost of the reamer and staking set!
I would also say to anyone thinking of going the Bergeon route, learn to broach and bush by hand first, that way you'll get your eye in and bushes will always be accurately placed in the plates and pivots similarly!

Going back to Simon's OP, depending upon the diameter of the pivot, he may get away with just bushing the plate in the correct place, but only if the edge of the bush removes the edges of the old hole, if it won't, he'll have to plug it if it's not to be visible!

John.

Edited By RJW on 23/08/2013 08:11:44

[simondavies3Participant @simondavies3]

Once again, thanks to all of you for your suggestions and expanations. I opened the holes out on Thursday evening and then spent rather too much time creating 3 mm bushes from scrap pieces of brass from the frame ( why is it that the simplest tasks seem to be the ones that take so much ultimate effort…? Perhaps because I apply a minimum of concentration on a seemingly trivial task unlike the complex ones that require real focus and are therefore achieved first time around..don't ask how many attempts it too to make 2 bushes (blush) )

Yesterday evening I fitted the bushes to the slightly tapered holes by riveting them in, since my measurements suggested that the correct position of the pivot would remain within the bush. I then re-measured the pivot position, marked it and with some trepidation, drilled it. The result is a perfect placement (well to my untutored eyes anyway) and I can now continue slowly through the rest of the wheels. The rear frame was cleaned up to the point where the bush is invisible, the front will wait until later, as a reminder that I need to take more care.

As an aside, I think I worked out why the error occured originally – the cone fitting for one end of my depthing tool 'just' touches the table when I place the cone in the winding hole to plant the intermediate wheel…not enought to notice but enough to completely change the depthing. I noticed this last night and completed the marking out with the frames held together thus giving plenty of clearance.

Onward, may the next problem rear its ugly head…..

Simon

[roy entwistleParticipant @royentwistle24699]

Simon From what I gather you started depthing the train from the winding hole The usual way is to start at the centre and work up and down Prick punch each position then drill That way you don't use the cone The only time I use a cone centre is on repairs

Roy

Edited By roy entwistle on 24/08/2013 08:41:18

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Simon0362 on 24/08/2013 08:33:15:

… The result is a perfect placement (well to my untutored eyes anyway) and I can now continue slowly through the rest of the wheels. The rear frame was cleaned up to the point where the bush is invisible, the front will wait until later, as a reminder that I need to take more care.

As an aside, I think I worked out why the error occured originally – the cone fitting for one end of my depthing tool 'just' touches the table when I place the cone in the winding hole to plant the intermediate wheel…not enought to notice but enough to completely change the depthing. I noticed this last night and completed the marking out with the frames held together thus giving plenty of clearance. …

Simon

.

Sounds like an excellent result, Simon

and your "learning point" about the Cone Fitting is well-worth noting.

MichaelG.

.

Edit:  I had intended to recommend using Water of Ayr Stone for flattening-off your inserts; but I've just seen the current price !!    … Note to Self: take good care of the one you bought thirty years ago.

Edit:  For Historical reference … here is a note about the Dalmore site.

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 24/08/2013 09:11:52

Edited By Michael Gilligan on 24/08/2013 09:18:19

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