Hydrogen

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

Nicholas –

Who will pay? Probably the motorist, as I think already happens with certain recoveries such as snow- or ditch- bound.

'

Dave –

I think you are right we septagenarians won't be inconvenienced too much beyond rising prices. After all, the car makers are still introducing i.c.-engined models, though at a rapidly-decreasing rate.

What we do need though is better public transport coverage everywhere. A lot of the lack is due to so many of us having abandoned it in favour of our cars!

On a personal note, most of my local journeys are feasible by bus and I do use them.

However, I do sometimes make much longer journeys and really, these are better by car. Many people do. This is why I am not impressed by Great Family We-all shopping statistics.

Ironically, public transport makes my caving-club 300 miles away in the Yorkshire Dales far more accessible than my other one only 60 miles away near Cheddar! By bus, 2-miles from a stop close to home to the local railway station, trains via Bristol to a station on the Leeds-Settle-Carlisle Railway, then short walk in a village also having weekday buses to Settle town. I have used these! Whereas Mendip has few or no bus services away from the main Bristol-Wells road; so train to Bristol, 20-mile bus ride, then 3-mile rural road walk.

By car: typically 8 and just under 2, hours, respectively, to the same destinations.

(Dorset has two main lines to London and one to Bristol, the latter giving the simpler and more efficient links to the North of England and to Scotland)

[noel shelleyParticipant @noelshelley55608]

In the context of recharging batteries how many villages A) only have 2 phases, and B) constant new building has streched the supply to it's limit ! The one I live in is so. As for recovery one company is using 7KVa genny for rechargeing. Noel.

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

Hydrogen is a nice clean fuel, being favoured by Toyota and JCB, but does not occur naturally.

Some years ago someone from Lotus gave a talk to the Peterborough Engineering Society and showed that petrol contained the most energy, by weight. Hydrogen being less dense, fared badly in that comparison,

Hydrogen can be obtained by processing hydrocarbon fuels, but oxides of carbon are an unwanted by product.

The world has an immense quantity of water available , which can be electrolysed.

But from whence comes the electricity for this?

Rather than solar, or wind power (The sun does not always shine, nor the wind constantly blow) hydroelectric or tidal power should be the sources. Tidal power is predictable, and happens twice a day (Four times if you are on the Solent ) .

Some time ago, Peter Brotherhood (or whoever owned the company at the time ) were developing an air turbine that rotated in the same direction irrespective of the direction of flow. This was driven by waves forcing an air column along a tapering duct to the turbine. This would provide DC which could fed into an inverter and thence into the national grid.

Wonder what became of that?

Howard

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

Just to bring a little real world into the discussion. Our Lab just sent out an eMail regarding our work EV charging bays.

We have now completed the successful trial of the LMB's new electric vehicle charge points (EVP) which have been available to staff on a free-to-use basis for the past 6 months. Thanks to all of you who have helped with this.

As agreed at the LMB Executive Committee last year, we will now move to an arrangement where we will be introducing a charge to LMB Staff for EVP use at a rate of 0.144p per kWh. This rate will be kept under review with the aim of keeping it in line with LMB's electricity supply costs.

These new arrangements will come into place from 1st February 2023 with invoices issued to staff members on a quarterly basis.

Sounds quite handy to me.

regards Martin

[Nick WheelerParticipant @nickwheeler]

Posted by Nigel Graham 2 on 11/01/2023 11:08:41:

Nicholas –

Who will pay? Probably the motorist, as I think already happens with certain recoveries such as snow- or ditch- bound.

You have far more faith in people than I can manage. I don't want to think about how much time I've spent waiting while the cover provider's customer argues with them about having to pay me to winch their car out of a ditch, arrange another vehicle to get their immobilised car out of a multi-storey, that the insurance recovery only covers the car and not them, they need to pay for the fuel to get them going even though it's their fault they ran out, that they only bought the basic cover and have to pay for distance that isn't covered or any number of other scenarios.

Anyone who has ever dealt with the general public in such situations will know that many of them expect their £100 breakdown cover to provide a man to arrive within seconds, wave a magic wand that converts their 20 year old barely maintained piece of shit into a shiny new Range Rover and supply a gourmet picnic to make up for inconvenience. And they're the ones that didn't lie about their circumstances.

[VicParticipant @vic]

Posted by John Doe 2 on 11/01/2023 00:54:43:

I believe that certain Teslas have 4WD and nearly 100% torque at almost zero revs.

Electric is definitely the way to go, as soon as the range and charging issues are solved. Better to have our personal transport powered by very efficiently produced electricity, than by badly maintained individual ICE engines.

As far as range is concerned; how many of us travel more than 100 miles each way to work? We can charge our electric cars at home for more range than we actually use each day, so it really should not be a problem – as long as the purchase price can be brought under control.

The maximum range I ever need is 250 miles in one go, and that is very rare.

Edited By John Doe 2 on 11/01/2023 01:05:10

Another case of thread drift, but yes, I agree. Here in the UK the average is only 140 miles a week. So for many motorists they wouldn’t actually need to charge that often. A quick charge at Tesco or some other store while they’re shopping or just charge at home if you have your own drive.
In over 40 years of driving I’ve never driven more than 150 miles without stopping and in many cases not more than a little over 100 miles so a BEV would suit me. I actually think many early adopters have considered this when buying their first BEV. Those that haven’t and want to travel long distances will no doubt have experienced some difficulties.
As battery technology improves I suspect the distance BEV’s can travel on a single charge will increase but for the majority of drivers I don’t believe it’s needed. I’d guess many manufacturers will stop at 500 – 600 miles just to compare favourably with conventional cars. We shall see.

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

Posted by Nigel Graham 2 on 11/01/2023 08:56:43:

It needs more than that, John. It also needs not assuming what suits you, suits all.

……..

It needs standard connection systems, no more than two (I believe some cars use d.c and some a.c. connectors but I may be wrong); on all chargers, to suit all makes and models of car.

It needs the option of direct card-payment methods, with the price by kW/h displayed, as on many liquid-fuel pumps; on all chargers. Not having to use a portable telephone that always and already carries the risk of no coverage where and when you need it most. Not to mention adding to the cost of re-charging, the call and agency fees.

……..

Couldn't agree more. The government should insist that by some date in the not too distant any car can be charged from any charger without having to have an app on your mobile phone. A common price for everyone, I don't pay a different price for petrol just because I have Skoda. I don't do mobile phone banking or payment, it doesn't sound difficult to just stuff your card in and key in the pin. The outlet might need a multiplicity of sockets, but that's the manufacturer's problem, they should have got together at the very start and agreed a standard. Our govt could for once in it's life sit down and talk sensibly to the EU, then the manufacturers would have to sit up and take notice, no common charging system, no sell cars.

[Ian McVickersParticipant @ianmcvickers56553]

Not all of the charge points require a mobile phone and an app. Charge Place Scotland also issues an RFID card which you can use. I have their app on my phone but have only ever used the card at the charge points. It is linked to my account with them and if I use a charger that requires payment I get an email with the costs for the month and is is debited from my account.

[John Doe 2Participant @johndoe2]

Posted by Nigel Graham 2 on 11/01/2023 08:56:43:

It needs more than that, John. It also needs not assuming what suits you, suits all.

It needs huge numbers of reliable public charging-points wherever you are in the country (including the empty wilderness of the Scottish Highlands, and the distant, populous, deprived areas like Cornwall). They can and do break down!

And enough of them to lessen the huge increases already being reported in journey times, due to the queues.

It needs standard connection systems, no more than two (I believe some cars use d.c and some a.c. connectors but I may be wrong); on all chargers, to suit all makes and models of car.

It needs the option of direct card-payment methods, with the price by kW/h displayed, as on many liquid-fuel pumps; on all chargers. Not having to use a portable telephone that always and already carries the risk of no coverage where and when you need it most. Not to mention adding to the cost of re-charging, the call and agency fees.

It needs sufficient constant electricity supply to many thousands of high-power chargers both public and private, on top of the intended, vastly increased domestic electricity consumption.

It needs the Government, car makers and charger makers to comprehend that a huge number of motorists now and in future will never be able to charge their vehicles at home! These people don't comprehend it now because they can all afford brand-new cars and leafy-suburban homes with big drives.

Finally it also needs the notion that because many motorists only ever drive short distances then all do, be seen for what it is – a meaningless assumption based on a shallow statistic.

.

A battery-car is out of the question for me. I cannot afford one, I cannot charge it at home.

I cannot see a 250-mile range going far in the Scottish Highlands in bad Winter weather, (a road atlas shows the size and emptiness of that country) though such a range might only apply to a car likely to be useless in such conditions anyway. I doubt any battery-equivalent of the real Land-Rovers and Range Rovers that could give you some chance of reaching Glasgow from Thurso in Winter, would have anywhere near that range. Even with the heater off.

I agree with much of what you say, and the point I was making earlier about WW2, is that we as a country just need to get on with it and upgrade the National Grid and provide more charging points – easily useable and payable.

I am still using my small-engined 2008 ICE vehicle – it would be very wasteful to scrap it now. I would love to own an electric car one day, but certainly cannot afford one. I am considering converting my car to electric myself, that would be an interesting project.

Most people do only commute < 100 mile distances, most of those much less than that, and getting all of those drivers into battery vehicles would help reduce emissions enormously. Robert says be cannot charge at home, but can at his place of work, so that might be the answer to that particular problem – workplace charging points for every car?

I am intrigued that even a 4WD high torque car is not sufficient, but you need a Landrover/Rangerover vehicle to make a particular 250+ mile journey in Scotland in the snow. Is that for work or a daily commute, and is it essential when the roads are virtually impassable ?

[VicParticipant @vic]

Posted by duncan webster on 11/01/2023 13:42:13:

Couldn't agree more. The government should insist that by some date in the not too distant any car can be charged from any charger without having to have an app on your mobile phone. A common price for everyone, I don't pay a different price for petrol just because I have Skoda. I don't do mobile phone banking or payment, it doesn't sound difficult to just stuff your card in and key in the pin. The outlet might need a multiplicity of sockets, but that's the manufacturer's problem, they should have got together at the very start and agreed a standard. Our govt could for once in its life sit down and talk sensibly to the EU, then the manufacturers would have to sit up and take notice, no common charging system, no sell cars.

Public car charging is a real mess at the moment with several different connectors and payment systems. It obviously needs to be standardised and fairly soon. You can’t stop some companies over charging though, they do this already with Diesel and Petrol at motorway services. In my area some car parks no longer accept cash, you have to use an app. No mobile – no parking. The important thing is to grow the system as demand for them increases. It happened with other technologies like mobile phones.

[Joseph Noci 1Participant @josephnoci1]

An EV in Namibia? Good Lord!

Or South Africa, with stage 6 load shedding – load shedding now in its 14th year and growing….

[VicParticipant @vic]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 11/01/2023 09:19:56:

Off-road EVs exist, but they're pricey and short-range. Although new prices will drop and a second-hand market will grow, city dwellers and semi-rural types like me will benefit first. At the moment it's hard to see an EV replacing the simple rugged capabilities of a classic Land Rover.

It’s still early days for BEV’s but this is available now. Expensive at the moment but up to 320 mile range. Probably much nicer to drive than an old LR as well or are we talking expensive LR Discovery?

**LINK**

I missed the earlier bit about Cobalt but I thought most of it was a byproduct of copper mining? We still need copper don’t we? Mind you, the way battery development is going they may not need so much of these rare metals anyway. I saw something about Sodium possibly replacing Lithium in future battery packs. The technology could look very different in ten years time.

[V8EngParticipant @v8eng]

Posted by Vic on 12/01/2023 12:35

It’s still early days for BEV’s but this is available now. Expensive at the moment but up to 320 mile range. Probably much nicer to drive than an old LR as well or are we talking expensive LR Discovery?

**LINK**

 

With a battery removable from below by undoing just 8 bolts, that should make a future income for the crooks currently nicking catalytic converters from under cars.

Edited By V8Eng on 12/01/2023 14:55:18

[Howard LewisParticipant @howardlewis46836]

My problem with current BEVs is that If i travel to visit or volunteer at The WaterWorks Museum (142 miles each way ) the sort of BEV that I can afford is unlikely to get me home again on a full charge.

So please don't quote me what a Tesla can do!

My 1 litre Euro 6 compliant petrol, will; with another 200 miles to spare, l despite having only a 35 litre tank.

We can reach a holiday destination in Devon before needing to refill.

Battery /motor / control technology still has some scope for development.

I C technology has been developing rapidly for a century, Battery powered vehicles for long distance travel has not, by the looks of it.

Maybe we are returning to the days of my youth where there buses from outlying villages to town only on market fays?

Howard

[Anthony KendallParticipant @anthonykendall53479]

Posted by Howard Lewis on 12/01/2023 18:57:31:

My problem with current BEVs is that If i travel to visit or volunteer at The WaterWorks Museum (142 miles each way ) the sort of BEV that I can afford is unlikely to get me home again on a full charge. So please don't quote me what a Tesla can do! My 1 litre Euro 6 compliant petrol, will; with another 200 miles to spare, l despite having only a 35 litre tank.
We can reach a holiday destination in Devon before needing to refill.
Battery /motor / control technology still has some scope for development. I C technology has been developing rapidly for a century, Battery powered vehicles for long distance travel has not, by the looks of it. Maybe we are returning to the days of my youth where there buses from outlying villages to town only on market days? Howard

Yes, that's where the reality hits the road! (apologies) – the practicality kicks in.
After theorising how green EVs are is over, it's what it means for you and me in the practicality and convenience.
Wait for a bit – but not too long if 70+
A little bit unfair – we do have some wind, but….

[noel shelleyParticipant @noelshelley55608]

Are high power( fast) chargers single or 3Ph and what sort of load do they draw ? Most chargers seem to be 7Kw which hardly seems fast , though some are sold as fast. How far would 1 hour at 7Kw get me in an average EV ? Noel.

Edited By noel shelley on 16/01/2023 10:20:19

[JAParticipant @ja]

https://www.rolls-royce.com/media/press-releases.aspx

OK, it is a diesel type engine and a bit too large for a car or truck. It does get this thread back to its title.

JA

[VicParticipant @vic]

Posted by JA on 16/01/2023 11:07:19:

https://www.rolls-royce.com/media/press-releases.aspx

OK, it is a diesel type engine and a bit too large for a car or truck. It does get this thread back to its title.

JA

Yes that looks interesting. From what little I’ve read a good proportion of the Hydrogen already used in industry is produced at or very near the point of use. This seems to negate some of the storage and transportation issues of Hydrogen.

[Ron ColvinParticipant @roncolvin83430]

Posted by Anthony Kendall on 16/01/2023 09:32:57:

Posted by Howard Lewis on 12/01/2023 18:57:31:

My problem with current BEVs is that If i travel to visit or volunteer at The WaterWorks Museum (142 miles each way ) the sort of BEV that I can afford is unlikely to get me home again on a full charge. So please don't quote me what a Tesla can do! My 1 litre Euro 6 compliant petrol, will; with another 200 miles to spare, l despite having only a 35 litre tank.
We can reach a holiday destination in Devon before needing to refill.
Battery /motor / control technology still has some scope for development. I C technology has been developing rapidly for a century, Battery powered vehicles for long distance travel has not, by the looks of it. Maybe we are returning to the days of my youth where there buses from outlying villages to town only on market days? Howard

Yes, that's where the reality hits the road! (apologies) – the practicality kicks in.
After theorising how green EVs are is over, it's what it means for you and me in the practicality and convenience.
Wait for a bit – but not too long if 70+
A little bit unfair – we do have some wind, but….

A third image should show the electric car plugged into a house with its roof covered in solar panels and the thought within the bubble being "I feel so smug".

[HopperParticipant @hopper]

Posted by Ron Colvin on 16/01/2023 12:53:14:

Posted by Anthony Kendall on 16/01/2023 09:32:57:

Posted by Howard Lewis on 12/01/2023 18:57:31:

My problem with current BEVs is that If i travel to visit or volunteer at The WaterWorks Museum (142 miles each way ) the sort of BEV that I can afford is unlikely to get me home again on a full charge. So please don't quote me what a Tesla can do! My 1 litre Euro 6 compliant petrol, will; with another 200 miles to spare, l despite having only a 35 litre tank.
We can reach a holiday destination in Devon before needing to refill.
Battery /motor / control technology still has some scope for development. I C technology has been developing rapidly for a century, Battery powered vehicles for long distance travel has not, by the looks of it. Maybe we are returning to the days of my youth where there buses from outlying villages to town only on market days? Howard

Yes, that's where the reality hits the road! (apologies) – the practicality kicks in.
After theorising how green EVs are is over, it's what it means for you and me in the practicality and convenience.
Wait for a bit – but not too long if 70+
A little bit unfair – we do have some wind, but….

A third image should show the electric car plugged into a house with its roof covered in solar panels and the thought within the bubble being "I feel so smug".

There was a great South Park episode about the clouds of smug covering San Francisco from all the "Pius" hybrid drivers. I imagine the smug output of Teslas is even higher.

[John Doe 2Participant @johndoe2]

One often hears the same sentiment as the cartoon, (with the red car); " why should I bother with electric, you still have to burn fossil fuels".

I say that, (when we upgrade the grid and sort out the charging issues), it will be more efficient to have most cars electric, even if charged from gas or whatever, than having most cars powered from IC engines:

The enormous gas turbine engines running at peak efficiency, and closely monitored, maintained and adjusted at the electricity generating plant; are vastly more efficient and cleaner burning than the hundreds of thousands of individual IC engines – badly maintained, choked-up, badly adjusted, badly monitored, inefficient, and not driven at peak efficiency.

And of course, electricity is now generated from wind, solar, (and should also be from super reliable and predictable tidal flow, here in the UK), so it has even fewer CO2 emissions.

All of aviation, (most of which is unnecessary), produces around 4% of the total CO2 emissions, Other transport, including private cars; around 30%. Heating our homes 40%. Even making concrete produces around 8%.

.

Edited By John Doe 2 on 16/01/2023 13:28:50

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

Posted by John Doe 2 on 16/01/2023 13:26:53:

One often hears the same sentiment as the cartoon, (with the red car); " why should I bother with electric, you still have to burn fossil fuels".

Edited By John Doe 2 on 16/01/2023 13:28:50

Yes but even if that was entirely the case then at least the emissions are in one place and static so give the potential for carbon capture rather than distributed around cities where they pollute the air that millions breathe.

regards Martin

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Anthony Kendall on 16/01/2023 09:32:57:

Posted by Howard Lewis on 12/01/2023 18:57:31:

…

Yes, that's where the reality hits the road! (apologies) – the practicality kicks in.
After theorising how green EVs are is over, it's what it means for you and me in the practicality and convenience.
Wait for a bit – but not too long if 70+
A little bit unfair – we do have some wind, but….

I see the internet has mangled the Cartoon. This is the right one!

Dave

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

The cartoon shows a point that used to annoy my Dad, a Chartered Electrical Engineer, though he worked as a defence-research scientist.

That was the gormless TV News and newspaper editors using images of the water-vapour rising from cooling-towers as supposed "pollution". (The real emissions from the chimneys, whilst undeniably mainly CO2, are of course too faint to be photogenic.)

[Ex contributorParticipant @mgnbuk]

Are high power( fast) chargers single or 3Ph and what sort of load do they draw ? Most chargers seem to be 7Kw which hardly seems fast , though some are sold as fast. How far would 1 hour at 7Kw get me in an average EV ?

7Kw maximum from 240V single phase, 22Kw maximum from 415V 3 phase – these are the most that can be done from home (dependant on house supply & the car built-in charger capabilty) & typically from the likes of supermarket or carpark charge points. 240 or 415V supplies don't charge the car directly, they supply power to an on-board charger that is typically 7Kw, but some can handle up to 22Kw if a suitable 3 phase supply is connected – if a "22Kw" charger is connected to a single phase supply, it becomes a "7Kw charger".

The car charger "negotiates" with the charge point when initially connected to determine it's capabilty & sets up a charge rate according to what the charge point can supply. This how the chargers handle charging via a 13A socket – the 13A "charger", when connected to a built-in 7Kw capable unit in the car sets the charge rate to suit the supply (typically 2.5 Kw) – connect to a 7Kw capable wall box & the same built-in charger will charge at a higher rate. Same charger in the car, same 240V supply voltage, same connection at the car, but the car will charge at different rates accoring to the capabilty of the supply.

Fast chargers are DC devices that connect direct to the car battery without using the charger built-in to the car. These seem to be getting higher capacity all the time with some up to 360Kw now but, again, it depends upon the capability of the car & it's battery system for what the actual maximum rate for a particular car is. Cold batteries cannot be charged fast – some cars pre-heat the battery to get it to optimum temperature before starting fast charging & then need to cool the battery as charging progresses to prevent overheating.

Typically EVs seem to do 2.5 – 4 miles per KwH according to the road tests I have read – depends on conditions, temperature, weather, driving speed & driving environment.

I got as far as taking a test drive in an EV (MG 5) when I changed cars last year. The car was OK and, as a car, was a viable contender, but I chose to get another petrol car. There were too many "unknowns" with the EV at the time (not the least of which was not knowing what it would cost when it eventually arrived + the unknown delivery date) & the lack of available public charging infrastructure was a factor. With current electricity prices, I am happy that I made the right decision for me at the time.

Nigel B

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