How to tune clock bells

[GLENN BUNTParticipant @glennbunt80076]

Hi,

I’m working on a project to make a quarter chime longcase mechanism. The project will be based on a 18^th / 19^th century English mechanism with an added train on the right hand side. I am using old clock books as my reference and they suggest a peal of four or eight bells. I have looked at the cost of buying a new peal of bells but was surprised at the cost – several hundred pounds!

My cunning plan is to purchase separate bells of different diameters and to try and “tune” them. I have an app for my phone which will tell me the bell note my question is does anybody know how to change or alter the note of a clock bell?

[GLENN BUNTParticipant @glennbunt80076]

[Thor67Participant @thor67]

Hi

There was a program on Discovery on that.

They took away material on the inside off the bell at the widest diameter.

[MICHAEL WILLIAMSParticipant @michaelwilliams41215]

Hi Glenn ,

Need to understand bells a little before working out how to how to tune them :

Bells have several properties of which the most important are :

The pitch or basic note produced .

The tone which is made up of the basic note and many harmonics .

The sustain – how long the bell rings for after being struck and the way the sound dies away .

All three properties are determined by the size and shape of the bell .

Generally bells which are geometrically similar but larger /smaller have similar sounds at different pitches whereas different shaped bells have different sounds even at the same pitch .

A consequence of the last item is that it is not easy to make a peal of bells from a random selection of bells – even if nicely tuned to a scale your ear will still tell you that there is something wrong .

The easiest and nicest sounding bells to make are chimes . These are just pieces of brass tube of different lengths . They are particularly easy to tune since only the length has to be trimmed . Being geometrically similar they all have the same tone and sound harmonious together .

Next easiest is the bicycle bell – the brass hollow hemisphere .

Lots more can be said about bells – get back to me if interested .

MikeW

PS: Designs for chiming and musical clocks have appeared in several magazines and books .

Edited By MICHAEL WILLIAMS on 20/02/2012 20:34:02

[Ady1Participant @ady1]

If the "chiming bells" aren't seen by the viewer perhaps tuning forks would suffice, those metal prong type thingys which emit tinging sounds

2cents

[GLENN BUNTParticipant @glennbunt80076]

Hi Mike,

Thanks for your reply.

I’m confused, isn’t a bicycle bell the same shape as a clock bell ? When I look at pictures of clock bell assemblies they seem to me (a complete novice on this subject) the same basic shape but different depths.

Unfortunately there isn’t a lot of depth in the case that the clock mechanism will fit in so brass tubes can be discounted for this project. That leaves me with a choice of persevering with bells, bar gongs or spiral gongs. Tuned Bar gongs can be purchased for reasonable cost but again create challenges with space I.E. moving the chime hammers and components to the back of the mechanism and possible inference with the clock weights and pendulum. I also think that bar gongs would look wrong on an English longcase clock mechanism design based in the 18^th and 19^th century. Spiral gongs are a possibility, I have many types and sizes in my parts cupboard but again I would have to research how to “tune” them. These would be more representative with later longcase mechanisms – any idea how to make or modify spiral gongs ?

Bells will fit nicely on top of the mechanism ( I need a minimum of four ), I haven’t discounted my first idea of purchasing different size clock bells yet and I’m still keen to see if the note can be altered to represent a reasonable sound. Some old books ive read indicate some methods including shortening the bell and removing material from the inside rim !

I`m confused, is`nt a bicycle bell the same shape as a clock bell ? and when I look at pictures of clock bell assemblies they seem to me (a complete novice on this subject) the same basic shape but different depths.

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

The following is not from experience but what I remember / deduce from reading over the years.

The sound of a bell is a factor of the stiffness of the material and the circumference of the rim hence the size. Trimming the inside (only inside becasue it is not visible) on a thick bell eg cast one is a massively complex job but more to do with all the harmonics and overall sound rather than basic frequency Changing the frequency is more difficult on a small brass bell but might be achieved by hammer hardening and on a steel one by heat treatment to increase the strength and hence stiffness aswell as trimming the size.

A spiral gong is a bit like a piano string where mass per unit length has an effect aswell as length. Some experiment can be done by moving the clamping point to reduce the length before getting out the hacksaw.

[jason udallParticipant @jasonudall57142]

Had set of "Christmas" bells that played carols etc… bels simply struck by hammer powered off solenoid controlled via micro…

might be work looking for same second hand and use the notes required…

these look like bells not clock gongs or bike bells…brass plated or simular

[MICHAEL WILLIAMSParticipant @michaelwilliams41215]

Examples of clock bells of all shapes and sizes can be found . Bicycle bell is just one simplified version of the general gong type bell .

Look in pm's for picture of clock using basically bicycle bells but as castings . The original series of articles gives drawings of the bells and basic instruction for making and tuning .

I don't have the relevant issue now but I'm sure somebody else has . Circa SEP 1956 ME Musical Clock .

MikeW

[Sub MandrelParticipant @submandrel]

I'm sure I have seen a cheap and cheerful chiming clock with what looked like 4 or 5 'bicycle' type bells nested one above the other. It could be cheaper to buy a cheap electrical clock with real bells and use those.

Neil

[alan knightParticipant @alanknight67321]

If you want to tune your own bells I would buy or borrow a strobe tuner with a built in microphone otherwise unless you have the ears of a highly trained musician you will be driven to the point of madness. That way you can size you bells to a correct pitch and octave incase you fancy being cleaver and harmonising your bells around simple intervals or triads.

[GLENN BUNTParticipant @glennbunt80076]

Hi Michael,

I’ve enquired about the original Model Engineering magazine articles on Claude Reeve`s Musical clock and got hold of a copy of the book but both mention where the clock bells can be purchased from i.e. Whitechapel Foundry but no mention of DIY casting or modifying bells. Does anyone know if there was an article on casting / making / modifying clock bells ?

Keeping my options open with regard clock chimes (bells or gongs) does anyone have any information regarding making a set of tuned Spiral Gongs. This would be a set of four or more for Westminster chimes. What material should I use, what size (width, dia and length) and whether to harden & anneal, toughen or just leave in original state.

There seems to be a lot of information in old reference books on clock mechanical operation, making and repairing but very little on chimes etc. If anybody has any knowledge, information or can suggest further reading then I appreciate any help you can give me.

[jason udallParticipant @jasonudall57142]

try this

<http://www.shoptlpwales.co.uk/index.php?route=product/search&filter_tag=vinco%2010%20Note%20Hand%20bells>

[Dennis WAParticipant @denniswa]

Glenn…Why don't you try and find a scrap clock movement with its Westminster chimes intact – it may be a cheap starting point? I have bought movements like this directly from clockmakers and on eBay in the past.

Dennis

[MICHAEL WILLIAMSParticipant @michaelwilliams41215]

Glenn ,

Time for some more real engineering .

It often happens in real engineering work that a component or group of components has to be designed where there is really no useful data or guidelines available at all at the outset .

If a further trawl of information about bells and gongs is fruitless then you will need to design what you need from scratch – often a rewarding process .

Regarding proper bells : make say three nicely proportioned bells , each geometrically similar and in three sizes . Test each one for tone and pitch . Tone will probably be ok if they look anything like bells so only really test for pitch . Plot graph of pitch against a characteristic dimension . Then from your graph size bells actually needed for clock , make with just a little trimming allowance and fine tune as nescessary .

Regarding spiral gongs : same principle but since they are so easy to make compared with proper bells you could make more test ones . Geometrically similar but sized both on general dimensions and wire size .

Quite nice brass bells can be made simply by turning – no intrinsic need for castings .

I've seen spiral gongs with both round and rectangular wire But since round wire is going to be much easier to source that is what I would use . Wire is ideally hard so quite possibly piano wire in its as supplied form would be ok .

It is possible to design bells and gongs using theory and numerical calculation but I think the practical approach is the better one for present puposes .

MikeW

[MartinTSWParticipant @martintsw]

You may be interested in Wavanal (or Tuner) a program for anylsing the tuning of bells available from http://www.hibberts.co.uk

regards

Martin

[Geoff TheasbyParticipant @geofftheasby]

I have been on a tour of the Whitechapel bell foundry, and they said that only about half a dozen people in the country can tune a bell properly.

Regards

Geoff

[julian atkinsParticipant @julianatkins58923]

hi glenn,

tuning of bells is as complicated as you have established, as there are lots of important factors to determine the correct 'sound' such as the shape and material of the bell, its diameter, and what harmonics you want. the striking mechanism can also make a difference to tone.

a secondhand set of small handbells might be a possibility (try an advert in the 'Ringing World' magazine). however good sets are expensive and probably wont fit in a normal sized clock case anyway. i have repaired/restored sets of handbells, as well as helping out on restoration projects to restore rings of church bells, but casting and tuning a set (of whatever size) is something for the few experts who do this professionally. you can have a go, but you might be very disappointed at the result and have wasted a lot of time and effort. you might get the right strike notes, but getting the right harmonics is quite another matter. i wouldnt want a longcase clock chiming that annoyed me every time it chimed because of some disonance or clashing harmonics!

as you will note from Claude Reeves, he used dome shaped bells to get them to fit into the clock case, and even someone as skilled and knowledgeable as him bought them from Whitechapel Bellfoundry rather than make them himself!

i commend you for making a quarter chime longcase clock. if you contact your local church bellringing guild or local library there are lots of detailed books on the subject though all out of print. trevor jennings' book can be recommended and will lead you on a fascinating path of discovery!

have a look at the following site for a brief analysis of bell tuning

http://www.hibberts.co.uk/tuning.htm

good luck!

cheers,

julian

[Ian S CParticipant @iansc]

When I visited Kallam Island museum in Sheffield back in 1984, the guide there told us about the bell they had there, I think from one of the battle ships, and how the person who was preparing the bell used to take it home to scrape a little off the inside until he got the tone right, don't remember all of the story, and maybe it was just a story (I know museums). Ian S C

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