How to get started with CAD/CAM for machining and engraving?

[Dave Sawdon 1Participant @davesawdon1]

A newbie’s plea for help

[Dave Sawdon 1Participant @davesawdon1]

I've had a CNC mill (Denford Starmill) and Mach3 for quite a while but not had the time to do anything with them. Now, at last, I've got the time!

Most of what I want to do will be what I think is called 2.5D but I also want to be able to engrave surfaces with lettering and with patterns – what CAD/CAM software would people recommend? It looks as if Vectris vcarve might do the job but it's not cheap and I wonder if there is a cheaper solution, maybe draftsight, plus <what?> for CAM?

[blowlampParticipant @blowlamp]

CamBam is unbeatable for the money. Vectric VCarve is excellent for engraving text and other fairly shallow shapes, but seems to be aimed at the woodworking/signmaking market.

I use ViaCAD and MoI for drawing and CamBam for CAM work – I also have Ucancam which I use for VCarving and other bits and bobs that I sometimes do.

I think ViaCAD and CamBam would cover most things for you, including quite complex 3D work.

Martin.

[GoCreateParticipant @gocreate]

Hi Dave

For cad I use Draftsight and Creo Ellements both free.

For Cam I use Vectric Cut 2d and for 3d Meshcam both easy to use and very low cost.

This website might be of interest

I have not used them yet but Micropath and Microcarve may be useful.

These were done using Vectric 2D.

 

 

Nigel

Edited By tractionengine42 on 09/04/2013 00:10:53

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Although this was cut on a laser all the artwork was done in VCarve pro ut it could have been done in Cut 2D

[Dave Sawdon 1Participant @davesawdon1]

Thanks everyone – very interesting. I've been having a play with draftsight (looks amazing) but I hadn't realised that Cut2D would do that sort of work. I'll investigate the other packages that have been suggested.

Here are some examples of the things I want to machine and engrave (once I've managed to do a more simple S-shaped crank handle):

The top one is brass. The lettered area slopes back at about 10 degrees and the body has 3 horizontal tabs out of the back which are drilled to allow 10 square-topped leadscrews to operate on the lugs that you can see in the slots

The lower one is brass or bronze

Will draftsight and cut2D allow me to do these or would I need something like vcarve?

[GoCreateParticipant @gocreate]

Hi Dave

I am no expert but for that type of work I think Martin has put you on the right track with Cambam, I am sure he will give you his comments. I have not used it so I am not qualified to recommend it.

Vectric 2D cut would not be suitable, my work is very much more mechanical than artistic. Vector 2D is good for profiling shapes, pocketing, drilling and engraving.

VCarve pro does look great but as you say pricey for hobby use.

I would be interested to hear what you finally decide and how you get on.

Nigel

Edited By tractionengine42 on 09/04/2013 07:10:52

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

If you are looking for cheap engraving software have a look at F-Engrave. It comes free and does straightforward engraving plus a certain amount of V-carving.

For converting your draftsight files to GCode there is DXF2GCODE again free.

There are a lot of free CAD/CAM programs out there if you search. If you get into full 3D there is PyCAM as well.

Russell.

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Those examples you posted have 3D profiles on them, they are not flat.

Cut 2D or VCarve pro only works in 2.5D. Aspire, the flagship model will do these but if you think VCP is expensive then this is out of your range.

Unfortunately the more features you need the more expensive it is.

Perhaps Cambam is the answer I don't know, I do have a copy but to be honest I have never used it.

There are a few free / cheap 3D programs out there, many based on Linux as it's a free OS but from experience these usually have a very steep learning curve or are an unsupported work in progress.

Many of the ones I have looked at I have not managed to get working due to lack of documentation / tutorials or support.

[EnnechParticipant @ennech]

I use Sheetcam for 21/2 D work

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

Posted by John Stevenson on 09/04/2013 08:57:38:

There are a few free / cheap 3D programs out there, many based on Linux as it's a free OS but from experience these usually have a very steep learning curve or are an unsupported work in progress.

Many of the ones I have looked at I have not managed to get working due to lack of documentation / tutorials or support.

The three examples I mentioned are written in Python and thus work in both Linux and Windows. I agree that for a professional user there are better, paid programs but for the hobbyist who can't justify the expense these work well. Support is generally available either in forums (fora?) or directly from the authors.

Russell.

Edited By Russell Eberhardt on 09/04/2013 10:48:48

[GoCreateParticipant @gocreate]

Hi

Meshcam may be worth a look, allot depends upon what cad formats you have available to put into your cam. Mesh can (and others) can create some 3d profiles from jpg images but I have not done this myself.

It's probably worth using free trial periods to try out different packages.

Nigel

[Another JohnSParticipant @anotherjohns]

Here's two links from the LinuxCNC mailing list:

**LINK**

**LINK**

I'm just a (very) happy user of LinuxCNC. You can also have a peek at my blog: http://cnc-for-model-engineers.blogspot.com

Just start doing *something* with it every day, (like turning it on!) and before you know it, it will make more and more sense.

Another JohnS

[Sub MandrelParticipant @submandrel]

More musicalia! Is that a late lute of some sort?

Neil

[Dave Sawdon 1Participant @davesawdon1]

Thanks again for all the ideas – they've given me lots of homework.

JohnS:
would I be able to use Cut2D for the part shown in the first photo if I machined the front face (slots and engraving) then put it on a sine plate at 10 degrees to machine the angled face?

Neil: it's a type of 18thC Cittern known as an "English Guittar"

The rose shown in the second photo is a casting but I was hoping to find a way to machine them. Some 18thC luthiers made star roses from bone, ebony and box so that's my fallback if I can't find a way to copy the one in the picture.

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Dave,

Yes Cut 2D would do that but it justs engraves the letters.

Where VCP differes is that it can do vee carving, what this does is it uses a vee shaped engraving cutter with a tiny flat on the end. and cuts out as normal until it gets to the outer edge and then when it gets to a corner it automatically raises the tool until it reaches the corner then lowers it.

Even thought it's machines like a hill top with two valleys you only see the sharp corner, In Cut2D, Sheetcam and Cambam you will get the radius of the cutter showing in the corner.

Not the best picture in the world, zooming in hasn't helped but if you look at the W's and Y's you can seee a crisp serif.

I may have a cost effective viable alternative but need to check. Probably post later tonight.

[Dave Sawdon 1Participant @davesawdon1]

In my ignorance I'd assumed that any engraving software would be able to replicate the hand-engraved look in my top picture (above) but now I understand the need for something a little more sophisticated. So much to learn – so little time!

[blowlampParticipant @blowlamp]

Dave.

My first choice for affordable and virtually bullet-proof CAM software is CamBam, and although it is able to engrave lines and curves in 3d for vcarving – provided you can supply such things, it isn't (at the moment) able to generate those curves itself. So with that in mind, as well as your rather specific needs, Ucancam might be a cheaper alternative to one of the Vectric products if engraving and vcarving is your main interest and can be bought on Ebay for around £140.

Ucancam can be a little quirky (chinese author ), but once learned can be very productive and is good to use.

Ucancam

If you want some simple(ish) CamBam or Ucancam g-code of something to machine, then just let me know.

Martin.

Edited By blowlamp on 10/04/2013 22:01:21

Edited By blowlamp on 10/04/2013 22:09:33

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

I'm not into CNC but happened to read this recently.

**LINK**

The point being that the thread starter tries several bits of software and finds different results.

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

Whether you spend your hard earned cash on commercial software or use some of the many free programs I think it's important first to learn Gcode and try hand coding a few simple parts. That way, if the CAM software doesn't do exactly what you expect you can correct the code.

Also hand coding can produce much shorter code than CAM programs if you make good use of subroutines – useful if you're using the evaluation version of Mach3.

Russell.

[Sub MandrelParticipant @submandrel]

Dave,

Another option for you could be photo-etching, followed by hand piercing of the holes and some handwork to tidy up.

Neil

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

Posted by Russell Eberhardt on 11/04/2013 11:22:39:

Also hand coding can produce much shorter code than CAM programs if you make good use of subroutines – useful if you're using the evaluation version of Mach3.

Russell.

Sorry but I have to disagree with this statement in the terms of what this post is about.

What Russell says is absolutely true but sub routines are not for the beginner. Take a simple G Code of a ring of 6 bolts on a PCD. ignoring the Z moves and startup moves the code is 6 lines long, each line being the co-ordinates of each circle – very simple.

If you were to stop the program at any point you could see where you were and where you wanted to go next.

With a subroutine you get a short piece of code what is usually a mathematical equation and looking at it doesn't really tell you much, when you come to run the program all you see on screen is this subroute which for a beginner might as well be written in Serbo Croat.

If for some reason you need to pause then you have lost all information on the program as only a few very very expensive top end machines can restart inside a sub routine.

By all means learn to walk with G Code but leave sub routines until you can run.

Subroutines were originally written to make code very compact as Russell says but mainly because early machines often had a 999 program length limit.

Today with machines running direct off hard drives with massive capacity this really no longer applies.

[Dave Sawdon 1Participant @davesawdon1]

This reminds me of the early arguments about the benefits of writing code in assembler rather than C (or whatever) – I used to love assembler but those times are gone.

John,
Did your investigations into a "cost effective viable alternative" get anywhere?

[John Stevenson 1Participant @johnstevenson1]

No sorry, got side tracked, had to rush down the pub for a pie and a pint.

Bastard job but someone has to do it !!

Will get onto it.

[Russell EberhardtParticipant @russelleberhardt48058]

Posted by John Stevenson on 11/04/2013 13:34:12:

What Russell says is absolutely true but sub routines are not for the beginner.

Point taken, John. I guess we come from different backgrounds. I've been writing programs since the mid '60s so subroutines are second nature to me. I have however found them to be useful being an impoverished retiree and using the evaluation version of Mach3 with it's code length limit.

Russell.

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