How should we describe non-metric tooling?

[Carl Wilson 4Participant @carlwilson4]

More like “sterile debate”.

[Mick HenshallParticipant @mickhenshall99321]

I was brought up and did my apprenticeship using the British system of the Imperial system, I never understood the reason why the emphasis was switched to Metric. Personally I have no time for metric and feel the younger generations have been pushed into an pointless change which has only created a confused system of measurement, all my machines are imperial and it will always be so,–just my opinion

Regards Mick

 

[IanTParticipant @iant]

I don't think of my machines as "non-metric" Raymond.

Simply put they are "Imperial" – they were made that way and will remain so.

I do of course have a few metric tools (albeit they are in the minority) – so perhaps I should start to think of them as "non-Imperial" ?

So that would seem to answer the question but no doubt there will now be a long and heated discussion on the subject – but the sun's shining again outside, life is short, so time to go and do something useful

IanT

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

A pair of horses' arses to determine railway track width. Two ox, needing a rest when pulling a plough, to determine the furlong (furrow long). The Americans losing a spacecraft by mixing two different measurement systems.

All arcane examples of unit determination or what might happen with mixing systems. Even imperial bearings have been metric for decades, apparently.

How often do you see a u-toob where someone converts other fractions of an inchoto the simpler decimal measurememt (thousanths). Drill bits in a box, marked as fractions but used as thousandths of an inch. Not many inch 'micrometers' in 1024ths!

Americans might call their system anything they like; they might claim some units are English, Imperial. American user standards, etc. But the still use the BTU (British Thermal Unit) as a measure of energy. Go figure….

Some, I know, dislike metric because "It is French". How quaint, or peculiar (and luddite)!!! I hear children stating their height and weight in old units, but don't have a clue as to how many pounds in a stone or even feet in a foot! And the only pints you might find are beer volume or blood donoring (actually 400g). Even spirits and wine are dispensed in metric volumes these days.

Even rugby- a real British invention, for sure – went metric decades ago. Cricket pitches may be 22 yards between the stumps but that does not change the fact that those stumps are 20.13 metres apart. Are tennis courts imperial or metric these days? I would guess that most professional golfers are metric users as well?

Metric rules, particularly now as SI units. But the computef industry still uses 1024 as a standard….

Call your tools metric or 'old units', because that is what imperial units are – old units.

[Tim StevensParticipant @timstevens64731]

There seems to be a hint of confusion in some of the responses. I am not seeking to mess about with inches or feet, or change any system of measurement. My primary concern relates to spanners (keys, wrenches) and perhaps I should have said so more directly.

In common (vehicle) use there are four different systems for spanner sizes: Whitworth, AF, BA, and metric.

AF stands for Across Flats and covers sizes in fractions of an inch, used in the pre-war US and Canada, now tidied up and called 'Unified' – ie UNC, ENF, UNEF, etc. Although metric spanners are also millimetres across the flats, they are never marked AF in my experience, just the nominal size such as 13mm.

Whitworth covers BSF and BSP as well, and the size is an arbitrary measurement (ie not an exact fraction or decimal) related to the size if the thread, not the spanner. So, half-inch AF is much smaller than half-inch Whitworth.

I have already covered BA, which has numbered sizes, getting bigger as the spanner size gets smaller (oddly) and dimensioned in decimal metric units. Thus the most common BA size, 2BA, has a spanner 1.75 times the bolt diameter, and the bolts are themselves metric decimals.

It is also rather odd that the decimal metric system, when used for spanners in pre-war France and Germany (for example) and tidied up in the post war period, uses millimetre integers and halves, and not other decimal fractions. The same applies to Allen Keys.

Back to my point: When I am looking for spanners to use on my pre-war vehicles (etc) I find it very confusing that when offered 'Imperial sizes' the products prove to be marked AF – ie complying with a system (Unified) which was based on US fractional-inch sizes and British compromise, and established AFTER the empire had dissolved, and NONE of them is a good fit on my BSF nuts.

I'm sorry if I have caused confusion – I hope the above might clear the air.

And a PS – I am not dealing with the sizes of clock and watch screws here. They are different again, but don't usually have spanners as such.

Regards,

Still looking for real imperial spanners

Tim

Edited By Tim Stevens on 01/06/2017 09:49:33

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

Ian, can I suggest you use the 5th common spanner system and then you will not have problems with things fitting your nuts, the 5th system is the ADJUSTABLE spanner

[mechman48Participant @mechman48]

Thankfully I still have the compos mentis to be able to work in both systems & /or convert if needed. When I was teaching apprentices starting out on NVQ L2 in UK / Middle Eastern training centre environs I used to play a little trick on the students with a catch question during metrology sessions…' How many thousands in an inch ?' you would be surprised at some of the answers I got back… ranging from 'What's an inch' to 'hundreds of thousands' & all variations in between, & surprisingly, also from Graduate Engineers on secondment projects, I kid you not !

​George.

[John GardenerParticipant @johngardener91897]

I have often quoted a sign in a glass suppliers here in Plymouth. "if God had wanted the world to be metric, there would have been ten Disciples" Bring back the cubit I say!

[RICHARD GREEN 2Participant @richardgreen2]

Posted by Brian Hutchings on 31/05/2017 22:14:23:

I think "Imperial" is an excellent description; everyone knows what it means. If it ain't broke don't fix it.

Brian

Definitely agreed !!

Some people have got too much time on their hands, and worry about such things,

Get down the workshop and drill some holes or something !!…………. It would be a lot more constructive.

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Tim Stevens on 01/06/2017 09:47:05

Back to my point: When I am looking for spanners to use on my pre-war vehicles (etc) I find it very confusing that when offered 'Imperial sizes' the products prove to be marked AF – ie complying with a system (Unified) which was based on US fractional-inch sizes and British compromise, and established AFTER the empire had dissolved, and NONE of them is a good fit on my BSF nuts.

.

Thanks for re-stating the actual problem, Tim

The simple answer is to buy Whitworth spanners.

MichaelG.

[KWILParticipant @kwil]

Jason,

I thought the so called adjustable spanner was a tool for rounding the corners off hexagon material

[Nick_GParticipant @nick_g]

Posted by mechman48 on 01/06/2017 10:21:27:

& surprisingly, also from Graduate Engineers on secondment projects, I kid you not !

.

Reminds me of 20 odd years ago a site agent in the construction industry telling me a story from years prior when metric and imperial were in the transition period.

They had a large extension to build on an existing office building which they had the original drawings for that were in imperial. So it made sense to build the extension using the same. They gave the job of marking out for the footings, drains etc to a new graduate. These were cut and the foundations filled with concrete ready for the brick layers to bring the construction up to floor level.

The brick layers started and for a short time all went well. ………….. They they started gradually running out of foundations to lay the bricks upon for the internal walls etc and the rest of the structure. The job halted.

Much head scratching, accusing looks and checking of measurements was as you can imagine done on this sizable project.

Turns out that when the graduate had done the initial marking out for the ground works he had done so using 10" to the foot.!

Nick

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Brian Hutchings on 31/05/2017 22:14:23:

I think "Imperial" is an excellent description; everyone knows what it means. If it ain't broke don't fix it.

Brian

Everyone knows what it means? In my experience hardly anyone understands it. What I think they are actually saying is 'I understand the small corner of the Imperial system that works for me.'

This chart lifted from Wikipedia illustrates one problem, the maze of units describing length:

Notice that 'thou' does not appear on this chart, and that some of the conversions are simplified, for example are there 6 feet or 6.08 feet in a fathom?

Whilst individual parts of the imperial system are sometimes well adapted to practical purposes, overall and in detail the system is a mess. in comparison the best features of the metric system are:

1. It is international, rather than nationally or trade based
2. It is logical and internally consistent rather than a compromise mixture of historically accidental relationships
3. The base units are standardised in a way that can be replicated from a specification, rather than produced by copying existing objects. (Not quite achieved for the kilogram, which is still referenced from a prototype.)
4. Uses base 10 throughout

This combination of features has the effect of reducing the number of 'magic numbers' necessary to convert between arbitrary units. Consequently, scientific and design calculations in metric measure are much less error prone and are instantly understood the world over. This matters when design and manufacture take place on different continents.

Chaps making good use of the Imperial system for profit or pleasure doesn't worry me at all. On the other hand telling youngsters that imperial is somehow better than metric is just plain wrong. Please don't do it!

Going back to Tim's original question, simply labelling tools as 'Imperial' is often inadequate. If it's a Whitworth spanner rather than an AF or other type, then it should say so explicitly. Vague tool descriptions aren't just a metric/imperial problem though : I was looking at an advert for a compressor the other day that had no figures for either pressure or volume flow. I didn't buy it.

Dave

[Colin WhittakerParticipant @colinwhittaker20544]

In the early 1990s on a Japanese Oil Rig in Nigatta Prefecture I thought I had picked up a tape measure using decimal fractions of a foot. A day later I realised I had discovered a new a new unit of measurement, the kanejaku, when all of my depth log measurements started to appear slightly off depth with each other.

[Brian GParticipant @briang]

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 01/06/2017 10:56:35:

Posted by Tim Stevens on 01/06/2017 09:47:05

Back to my point: When I am looking for spanners to use on my pre-war vehicles (etc) I find it very confusing that when offered 'Imperial sizes' the products prove to be marked AF – ie complying with a system (Unified) which was based on US fractional-inch sizes and British compromise, and established AFTER the empire had dissolved, and NONE of them is a good fit on my BSF nuts.

.

Thanks for re-stating the actual problem, Tim

The simple answer is to buy Whitworth spanners.

MichaelG.

Don't forget BS spanners, which should fitr BSF nuts directly without the need to go down a size. Personally I quite like Britool's old spanner numbering system, where the spanner number is the across flat sizes to 0.01" (double ended) or 0.01" (single ended) for BSW/BS and AF, or in mm for metric.

Brian

[Neil WyattModerator @neilwyatt]

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 01/06/2017 11:35:09:

Everyone knows what it means? In my experience hardly anyone understands it. What I think they are actually saying is 'I understand the small corner of the Imperial system that works for me.'

This chart lifted from Wikipedia illustrates one problem, the maze of units describing length:

That chart appears on Wikipedia to show how imperial units relate to OTHER ENGLISH MEASUREMENT SYSTEMS not to set out the imperial measures.

If it didn't appear on the back of a red and black Sylvine notebook it wasn't real 'Imperial'

By the way "The Weights and Measures Act of 1897 made the provision that metric units could be used in addition to the traditional imperial units for purposes of trade".

Neil

[Mick HenshallParticipant @mickhenshall99321]

Well I understand what Imperial means to me, strikes me if Imperial and Metric is in the same sentence a spirited debate will result-each to their own 

Mick

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Brian G on 01/06/2017 11:52:58:

Posted by Michael Gilligan on 01/06/2017 10:56:35:

Posted by Tim Stevens on 01/06/2017 09:47:05

Back to my point: When I am looking for spanners to use on my pre-war vehicles (etc) I find it very confusing that when offered 'Imperial sizes' the products prove to be marked AF – ie complying with a system (Unified) which was based on US fractional-inch sizes and British compromise, and established AFTER the empire had dissolved, and NONE of them is a good fit on my BSF nuts.

.

Thanks for re-stating the actual problem, Tim

The simple answer is to buy Whitworth spanners.

MichaelG.

Don't forget BS spanners, which should fitr BSF nuts directly without the need to go down a size.

.

My point was, Brian … They fit.

The markings on the spanner may, or may not, match the thread diameter [depending upon the vintage] … but they fit.

MichaelG.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Neil Wyatt on 01/06/2017 12:04:04:

Posted by SillyOldDuffer on 01/06/2017 11:35:09:

Everyone knows what it means? In my experience hardly anyone understands it. What I think they are actually saying is 'I understand the small corner of the Imperial system that works for me.'

This chart lifted from Wikipedia illustrates one problem, the maze of units describing length:

That chart appears on Wikipedia to show how imperial units relate to OTHER ENGLISH MEASUREMENT SYSTEMS not to set out the imperial measures.

If it didn't appear on the back of a red and black Sylvine notebook it wasn't real 'Imperial'

By the way "The Weights and Measures Act of 1897 made the provision that metric units could be used in addition to the traditional imperial units for purposes of trade".

Neil

I'd feel guilty except that 'The 1824 Act allowed the continued use of pre-imperial units provided that they were customary, widely known, and clearly marked with imperial equivalents.' My point remains that the mixture of 'English', 'Imperial' and 'Customary' measures was a mess, and despite much simplification over two centuries remains so.

I think the fans of Imperial measure would be less keen if they had to pass exams in it. For example, without looking anything up: 'A 10 foot length of empty 4½" internal diameter pipe weighs 15¾lbs. What is the total weight of the pipe after it has been filled with distilled water?'

I'd say it's only possible to think Imperial is a sensible system by ignoring most of it.

Dave

[pgk pgkParticipant @pgkpgk17461]

Havng read this read I feel bound to ask what i should ask for when buying mint imperials…?

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

How would I describe non-metric tooling? Obsolete! Like it or not the UK is slowly but surely going over to the SI system. My children who are in their 20s and 30s simply do not understand inches, pounds etc, and expecting them to learn an obsolete measurement system to take up our hobby is living in cloud cuckoo land

Yes a lot of my stuff is non metric, and I'm not going to throw it away, but since fitting my milling machine and lathe with DROs I find myself using metric dimensions most of the time. It's easier. Just try adding 27/64" to 7/32" and converting it to decimal in your head so you can use a micrometer.

[MWParticipant @mw27036]

Posted by duncan webster on 01/06/2017 14:09:17:

How would I describe non-metric tooling? Obsolete! Like it or not the UK is slowly but surely going over to the SI system. My children who are in their 20s and 30s simply do not understand inches, pounds etc, and expecting them to learn an obsolete measurement system to take up our hobby is living in cloud cuckoo land

I'm half way through my twenties exactly, i'm not averse to imperial if I must use it, but I can definitely understand it!

Not all the young'uns can be measured by the same yard stick

Michael W

[MuzzerParticipant @muzzer]

As an engineer, I groan in disbelief when I see US technical data. They persist with pounds and ounces, inches, feet and miles, pints, quarts and gallons, horse power, gauss, minutes, hours etc etc. Trying to calculate stuff is a nightmare, with endless conversion factors even within their own system.

In contrast, EVERY measurement in the SI system can be (and generally is) defined in metres, seconds and kg. Obviously some units have their own name (Pascals for instance) but these are simply for convenience and the "conversion factor" remains unity. And the larger and smaller values are simply expressed as micro, milli, kilo, mega etc etc.

It gets really silly when Mercans start to mix metric and imperial units. One day they might get it….

[Martin KyteParticipant @martinkyte99762]

So what should we call measurement systems that are neither metric, nor imperial. I could maybe suggest autonomous mensuration units or maybe anthropocentric units.

:0)

Martin

[CirclipParticipant @circlip]

"It gets really silly when Mercans start to mix metric and imperial units. One day they might get it…."

Yep, pre surface mount electronics, had to lay artworks for PCBs with imperial pitched holes for ICs and transistors and metric for resistors and caps.

Impetric sizes.

Regards Ian

[Author]

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