How not to use a clamp

[Pete.Participant @pete-2]

Peter – why not give it a go, you'll be quite surprised at it's benefit – just one piece of copy paper under an item will considerably improve the grip of a workpiece using the same clamping pressure.

Tug

I will give it a try, although I'll try and keep it under 6 weeks

[Bill PhinnParticipant @billphinn90025]

Posted by Ramon Wilson on 23/01/2021 15:32:23:

Bill,

my apologies – I missed the significance of the 'vise' so yes, agreed, that could be in situ for a long time without being moved.

Personally though I can't see the need to place a piece of paper under a milling vice – usually it's a workpiece that that serves best but if the surfaces of mill or vise base are less than ideal then yes it would help.

No apology needed, Tug.

You're right about not really needing paper under a milling vice; my main milling vice, an Arc type 2, is fixed straight on to the table. However the angle vice I was using isn't a milling vice but the four inch version of this:

https://www.warco.co.uk/machine-vices-vice-jaws/123-tilting-drill-vice.html

I was sceptical about whether it would serve for milling work at all, but so far it has been remarkably useful and much stiffer under loads than I expected. The base of the vice, however, isn't faultlessly flat, hence the paper.

[garyParticipant @gary44937]

keep sharing your info ramon i have picked up a lot of good tips from you over the years the yarn for packing rings being the latest. got it today.

[Ramon WilsonParticipant @ramonwilson3]

Hi Rockindodge and Old Iron –

I did stress that I was not criticising anyone and certainly not 'Ade' whoever Ade is. I do not watch his videos nor anyone else's but like him and others have done I've done my own fair sharing of information accrued over years but mainly forum based. I have also always stressed when doing that that whatever I have posted is not the way but the way I chose to go about it.

My comments here were made based on the initial image which is now seen as s a snapshot close up and my own views on using that type of clamp it that fashion – you may recall I said the clamp on the left was correct in my book. My point was poor clamping can lead to disaster – not worth the risk of ignoring if you value the time and energy put into a workpiece.

So, it's three pages of comment – does that really matter – is that a problem here? Lets face it if you can't comment on model engineering matters on a model engineering forum there's not much point in being here – if there is I guess I'm in the wrong place

Tug

[Paul KempParticipant @paulkemp46892]

Sometimes I despair at this forum. Undoubtably there is a lot of good stuff but equally there is a lot of pointless bitching, point scoring and willy waving! Ramon, sadly you were lead into a trap here by not having the advantage of knowing what was being done or the purpose of the clamp. I don't see there is critiscm of your postings for actual machining set ups where higher forces are involved but for drilling a 3mm hole if he could have held it steady enough in the right place he could have held it with his hand! Now wait for the rush of critiscm on that last statement!

Clearly I am not alone in thinking the OP posted an extract picture with commentary that was completely out of context to the operation being carried out. For the purpose of what he was doing only a very light clamping force was required and to horse a heavy clamp down hard would have been detrimental to the casting! By all means use a valid example such as where someone is milling something held to the table with chewing gum and sellotape with a 4" face mill that clearly presents a danger to operator and machine but this example does not fit that category!

This whole thread is pointless, the video maker wasn't giving any instruction on how to use a milling machine he was merely showing how he was intending to hold an irregular shaped casting to a plate which could hold it for future ops. At no point did he advise or infer anyone else should follow his approach that I heard and I did go and watch the whole video.

Too many people on here ready to throw bricks when I am sure they probably live in glass houses.

Paul.

[Roger ClarkParticipant @rogerclark]

Sorry Tug, my comment wasn't targeted at you, I have a great respect for your work and your productive comments. I think you brought up a different scenario concerning faceplate clamping which wasn't the OPs original criticism, I totally agree with you about the correct clamping for the job in hand which Ade had done in his setup but then we had all manner of ex purts stating it was all wrong, the heel of the support would damage the table or twist itself out with all the machining forces when all he is doing is drilling a small hole.

This was a case of a snapshot being taken that put the process completely out of context and after a lifetime of troubleshooting of one type or another I learnt to not make statements without knowing all the facts.

Roger

[Ian Johnson 1Participant @ianjohnson1]

Just watched Ade's S50 build part 3, now the poor guy feels he has to explain himself because of the comments on here. Give it a rest please, there was nothing wrong with his set up.

IanJ

[derek hall 1Participant @derekhall1]

Posted by Mike Poole on 22/01/2021 15:06:55:

I cringe when people chuck spanner’s on the table of a machine, a table protector makes a useful place to put things down safely when setting up but once cutting is underway any tools left out will be buried in swarf. If cutting fluid is used then soft metal or plastic is better than wood.

Mike

I am terrible at doing that!….I mean I don't bang them down hard enough to dink the table!

So today i am going to make one….thanks for the reminder

Back to the topic, David Colwill a great post, it is easy to sit back and criticise based on one photo and limited description of the task being undertaken.

There seem to be some on here who based on that photo, will now spend all day using stress analysis calculations to work out the amount of torque to tighten the clamps and to try and analyse the metallurgy of the steel clamps as well as how much the clamping bolts stretch and the component being compressed.

Come on everyone let's take a step back from this nit picking. The photo in my view (47 years engineering experience), does not demonstrate poor practice based on the job being done.

Best wishes to you all

Derek

[Ramon WilsonParticipant @ramonwilson3]

Hello Derek

From my perspective I have to say I don't see any of the comment as 'nit picking'.

The original poster made comment on what he considered to be bad practice in using step clamps. I supported that comment based on my view of the original image because of my experience at work with them. It's been said "He's only drilling a 3mm hole but that image does not convey that indeed it appears he is using an edge finder but it doesn't take away the fact that the clamping is unsafe – use as such for drilling but what if the next time one is using an end mill

No one – certainly not me – is 'having a go' at Ade whoever he is. No doubt he is doing a good service to the model engineering community as a whole and all power to his elbow if so. He should perhaps take stead in the fact that something he has done has promoted this discussion in the interests of safety – and not just to an operator but, as said, to the workpiece – with your 47 years experience I'm sure you'll know only too well what the latter feels like and especially for a beginner perhaps on an expensive to replace casting.

So no, no one is criticising Ade per se just making comments on what is after all – or what should be treated as such – an important part of basic machining techniques but if you put yourself (oneself) on a stage one has to accept that not all will agree with your performance.

Yes perhaps we should leave this now – it's now no longer about a subject useful to early stage model engineers but more questioning its reasoning of posting

Regards – Tug

BTW I give you two years of experience but if you haven't cured the habit of banging tools on the mill table as yet – well ……

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

I watched the video. I thought it entirely unnecessary, and complicated, to do it that way.

I would have drilled the first lug on the casting (likely with a pillar drill if I had one), THEN placed the casting on the aluminium plate, adjusted for a suitable position and marked the spot to drill and tap WITHOUT the casting in place. I have a set of transfer punches but they would not even need to be pressed into service for that operation. Likely a drill point or a scriber would have been used to mark the spot for drilling – or even a maker pen around the outside of the lug – which was not critical anyway.

But using clamps in that way can easily be copied by those that know no better (and there are a lot out there). Seen it all before – youtube videos with bare mains connections being enclosed in a sandwich box, is just one that sticks in my memory. If you do it, edit it it out from the video!

Following the thread, I was almost thinking old iron had another nom de plume….🙂

Edited By not done it yet on 24/01/2021 10:22:46

[Paul KempParticipant @paulkemp46892]

Lol I rest my case. Now not only is the bloke being lambasted for poor practice and leading novices astray but now his motives are being questioned as to why he decided to do the job that way in the first place! I am surprised this has not been closed down by the "authorities" early on as it potentially encourages viewing of associated content with reviews of equipment from banned (on this forum) suppliers!

Paul.

[OldironParticipant @oldiron]

Hi TUG. My comments were not directed at you either. My problem is that the OP posted a picture with no context to it whatsover. At least the post has given us something to occupy ourselves with whist sitting on our bums.

NDIY. " Following the thread, I was almost thinking old iron had another nom de plume….🙂" Not guilty mlud.

regards

[Rod RenshawParticipant @rodrenshaw28584]

Enough already. Others apparently have bombs in their workshops to worry about.

[Ramon WilsonParticipant @ramonwilson3]

Roger – Old Iron

I agree – a tad misleading indeed but the discussions has brought out views – that HAS to be better than 'Covid statistics' for instance in at least its relevant to 'what we do'.

I agree with Rod – enough. My workshop is safe from bombs however so that's where I'm off too – ha! there's a casting that needs clamping to the table – yes, I assure you, there really is .

As 'they' say All's well that ends well, just keep on smiling and bimble on

Tug

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Posted by Oldiron on 24/01/2021 12:20:05:

NDIY. " Following the thread, I was almost thinking old iron had another nom de plume….🙂" Not guilty mlud.

regards

I know🙂🙂🙂 …. Is he your brother in law?🙂🙂🙂

I noted the milling table end was a different colour in your album, so guessed it was less likely.

I, personally, would not put up a machining video for the very reasons I stated – my workshop is not the tidiest, nor best organised and my machining skills and practices are safe for me but not necessarily a good example for beginners.

Also, while I can learn from both the good and bad videos (so my methods are always improving), I am not, and never will be, a ‘proper’ machinist – I’m just a hobbyist with far more retirement interests than just metalwork.

As I pointed out in my previous post, the first thing that I noted was how difficult the job was made.🙂 I always try to adopt the KISS Principle (but I still manage to do things in the wrong order, after 25 years of owning a lathe).

Lets just agree that we have slightly different expectations of youtube video quality.

NDIY

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

Well poor Ade reckoned he was not too bothered about the comments , but i think he was. Then went on to show various other ways it could have been done.

Personally i do not always watch youtube for a degree in being a rocket scientist. It is just a better bit of entertainment for me than watching Corry etc.

Steve.

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

It is just a better bit of entertainment for me than watching Corry etc.

Ha ha! We got rid of the goggle box over ten years ago. Not missed it.

[Frances IoMParticipant @francesiom58905]

the last tv I had a nominal share in was in a student house in the late sixties (tho i suspect no licence was paid) for the 50+ years since then I’ve not owned a tv – a fact that the licensing people have great difficulty believing – I’ve even worked for the Beeb but never saw the need

[SteviegtrParticipant @steviegtr]

Posted by not done it yet on 24/01/2021 19:59:37:

It is just a better bit of entertainment for me than watching Corry etc.

Ha ha! We got rid of the goggle box over ten years ago. Not missed it.

I did not mean i ever watched Corry,,,, honest.

Steve.

[OldironParticipant @oldiron]

NDIY. I know🙂🙂🙂 …. Is he your brother in law?🙂🙂🙂

No I do not know ADE personally. But I am of Welsh descent several generations back. I have watched a few of his video's during the lockdown.

regards

[Colin HeseltineParticipant @colinheseltine48622]

Having read this thread through, I am just wondering what comments I might get regarding issues I might experience, if any, whilst machining the Sole Plate for a Stuart10v on the fixture plate I have just made.

I have just finished making this fixture plate to be able to hold smaller more awkward bits in my large vice.

I am only intending to take off a couple of thou or so to square up (level) the various mounting points. I am intending to run a face-mill lightly over the surface to do this. The previous owned had filed them but not very square. The sole plate is held down by metal bracket which has the bar (located in the bearing recesses) welded to it.

The biggest problem I have with the engine is that he had machined the bearing bores so badly that it needed a 24thou shim under both sides of one of the bearing block to free the crank up. When I got it it only spun the crank if the bearing hold down bolts were loose. The recesses for the bearings are level with one another.

Colin

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

I must admit I would put a block below the stepped-block so all the teeth are engaged, but as I have not seen the video (YouTube demands an "account" now), I accept the defences put up for what had actually been done after the operation in the still.

What I'd not considered, since it is flat steel on flat cast-iron, is padding between table and block. I do though, ensure no swarf trapped in the joint as that would indeed damage one or both faces.

[Nigel Graham 2Participant @nigelgraham2]

Colin –

My comment is that what you have there is a good way to approach the task, and I like the fixture-plate, but be careful not to indent the journal surfaces with the bar. It shouldn't do, but it is a point I'd consider.

What I'd do though, is put larger counter-bored holes appropriately in the fixture-plate to give the option of securing it directly to the mill table. (I assume that cap-screw holds a tenon for gripping in the vice?)

It's often worth when making jigs and fixtures considering such options to increase their capabilities from the start, but without going so far you spend more time and material making the jigs than making the bits the jigs are for making….

[Colin HeseltineParticipant @colinheseltine48622]

Nigel,

The plate is dowelled to the tenon in the vice. As it was all machined whilst assembled I am loathe to split it. I think if I need another small one I will make one. I intend making a much smaller pone for the Cowells mill.

I have in fact just recently made a very large fixture plate for the mill. It is dual purpose, in that it is used to hold the big indexer (200mm chuck) which is too wide for the table slots. It has rows of 10mm tapped holes and 8mm reamed holes for dowel pins. The indexer is around 85Kg's and the fixture plate is at least another 6kg if not more. Luckily the large piece of tooling plate came FOC, otherwise it would have cost me over £100.

Colin

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