Highway Code

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Out cycling I find the roads full of careless car-drivers who selfishly believe they own the road. Cyclists should get out of the way, and many drivers process as if it's OK to nudge cyclists into the hedge. They're all guilty and it should obviously be legal to hang car drivers from the nearest lamp-post.

In my car, I find the roads full of lunatic cyclists deliberately blocking the road, ignoring traffic lights, riding in my blind spots, and overtaking whilst I'm turning. Shooting is too good for these clowns.

Driving through Bath before xmas, I discovered the best of both worlds: from now on Public Enemy №1 is electric scooters…

Dave

[mark costello 1Participant @markcostello1]

Since when were taxes reasonable?

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by mark costello 1 on 08/01/2022 17:42:54:

Since when were taxes reasonable?

.

Probably never …

I mentioned ‘reasonable progress’ not ‘reasonable taxes’

MichaelG.

[BazyleParticipant @bazyle]

I thought car tax was based on the noxious gases produced now and all those pedestrians and cyclists keep emitting CO2. They need to be made to shut that off when stationary like cars. Apparently cargo bikes are taking off now so would they attract a commercial vehicle tax?

I think and episode of Dr Who was on a future world where the pavements were privatised so you could only walk on them if you had the special pass.

[Nick WheelerParticipant @nickwheeler]

Posted by Bazyle on 08/01/2022 18:07:25:

I thought car tax was based on the noxious gases produced now and all those pedestrians and cyclists keep emitting CO2. They need to be made to shut that off when stationary like cars. Apparently cargo bikes are taking off now so would they attract a commercial vehicle tax?

I think and episode of Dr Who was on a future world where the pavements were privatised so you could only walk on them if you had the special pass.

So you're expecting stationary cyclists to stop breathing just like stationary drivers do? And just how much more CO2 does a +/- 250Watt cyclist exhale compared to a 125KW IC engine?

Now that we've come up with a formula for how much tax a cycle should pay based on vehicle weights, surely there should be some rebates for a bikes advantages? Things like the amount of space they save, the lack of intrusive noise, better use of fewer resources and of course, recyclability.

[GavlarParticipant @gavlar]

Posted by Peter Greene on 07/01/2022 01:43:04:

Just curious:

Given that cyclists demand equality (and more) with motor-vehicle drivers, are there any plans in the UK to have cyclists do their bit and pay their share (road-tax, licence, insurance, driving test)?

Local roads are paid for with local taxes, your community charge. Cyclists pay community charge but do next to no damage to the roads. So surely, I'm 'doing my bit' by cycling and I should recieve a tax rebate, funded by higher car taxes??

[HOWARDTParticipant @howardt]

It would seem by the percentage of comments to my original question that most car drivers on this forum drive within walking distance of their abode. Perhaps rather than worry about cyclists and their poor road sense they should start walking more as they would then have priority over the cyclist. My comment about speeding towing vehicles has gone unnoticed, perhaps you are all now driving motorhomes or have static vans padding out the empty seaside villages.

just a thought.!!

[Peter G. ShawParticipant @peterg-shaw75338]

Hello Howard,

As a long time caravan tower, it didn't go un-noticed by me. It's just that I get utterly bored by the negative comments about caravan towers which abound. Jeremy Clarkson being one of the chief offenders. (Mods, delete that sentence if necessary. Ta.)

Obviously, speeding by any vehicle, whether towing or not, is illegal and therefore indefensible. So what more can one say?

Regards,

Peter G. Shaw

[Sam Longley 1Participant @samlongley1]

Posted by HOWARDT on 08/01/2022 20:38:01:

, perhaps you are all now driving motorhomes or have static vans padding out the empty seaside villages.

just a thought.!!

Got a Yot– & 2 Brompton E bikes for use in Belgium & Holland – plus a bit of France!!. Will that suit the green lobby?

Have to say that cycling in Holland & Belgium is much better than the UK, because the public- whether in cars, on foot, on E-scooters, or other cycles, are just so much more aware of the zone around them. Pedestrians tend not to wander around aimlessly with a phone or earbuds stuck in their ears. There are some interesting video articles around how the Dutch govt went about educating the public in cycle awareness & use. That was years ago & unfortunately respect for ones fellow man/woman within the British community does not lend itself to such "education"

Guernsey is a joy to cycle, because cars stay well behind cyclists before overtaking . When they do pass they give a minimum 1 metre clearance. Oddly enough I feel that it tends to make cyclists have more respect for the car driver.

Edited By Sam Longley 1 on 08/01/2022 21:40:59

[martin perman 1Participant @martinperman1]

Like Peter I've towed caravans and trailers most of my driving life and I've never exceeded the required speed limits but I get really wound up when in the outside lane in my car traveling at 70 being flashed by a van or car with a trailer in tow, they haven't a clue. My brother and I were on our way home back one Saturday on the M25 to Bedford with an empty four wheeled car trailer we owned in tow when for some unknown reason the tail started wagging the dog and I found myself using all three lanes going from lock to lock trying to stop the car we eventually came to a halt on the hard shoulder, my brother spotted that two artics had blocked all three lanes to give us a chance of using the road. He almost had to peel my hands off the steering wheel because I'd been gripping so tight. when we got home we checked the trailer and could find nothing wrong with it and the car was certainly capable, a 1.8GLi Cavalier. We sold the trailer as we didn't trust it anymore.

My job meant many miles traveling and at least once a month during the summer I would see wrecked caravans or jack knifed trailers. A couple of years ago on our way back up the M3 my mate and I had a tyre blow on the trailer front axle and even that made the car waggle so I'm very aware when towing, its a shame others aren't.

Martin P.

[duncan webster 1Participant @duncanwebster1]

SWMBO had a very lucky escape when a car towing another car on a trailer passed her and suddenly started fishtailing as it went by. The trailer smashed into the side of our car and pushed it onto the hard shoulder. Fortunately she was OK, just 'all shook up', but the car was a write off

[Sam Longley 1Participant @samlongley1]

Posted by martin perman on 08/01/2022 21:32:40:

My brother and I were on our way home back one Saturday on the M25 to Bedford with an empty four wheeled car trailer we owned in tow when for some unknown reason the tail started wagging the dog and

the car was certainly capable, a 1.8GLi Cavalier. We sold the trailer as we didn't trust it anymore

I would suggest that the trailer probably weighed 650-700 KG & the max recommended towing weight of your Cav is possibly as low as 850 KG- I am guessing here- so not so much spare capacity really

If the trailer balance is wrong ( ie insufficient towbar weight) there is a speed point where it will start to fishtail.

I have trailed my 3.5Ton trailer all over the country from Essex to Scotland, with either my digger or joinery on it. I have done thousands of miles. If the trailer is not properly balanced I have found max speed 40 Mph. Properly balanced fully loaded  I could do 60 MPH with no problem.

I found that at the start of a journey it was best to gently increase speed & feel for the "wobble" Then not exceed that speed. If i did start to fishtail it was often better to accelerate. I could do this Ok behind a V8 petrol Disco. But behind a light car like a Cavalier I would think twice.

I also have read that close coupled trailers are worse for trailing as they do not allow the towbar to ride up & down the same as a 2 wheeled trailer.That affects towbar weight as the vehicle goes along undulating surfaces.  I did have a 5 ton trailer for my wood chips & this had a swinging axle where the towbar could ride up & down independent of the bogey. With a fixed axle & the long towbar it may have been an issue.

I think I read that if a caravan has close coupled wheels the towing capacity of the vehicle has to be reduced. Perhaps others can comment. That will reflect on the car transporter fishtailing if it was close coupled

Edited By Sam Longley 1 on 08/01/2022 22:16:39

Edited By Sam Longley 1 on 08/01/2022 22:19:13

[Peter G. ShawParticipant @peterg-shaw75338]

As a matter of interest I've been towing since age 13, ok that was on a farm, but it was still 65 years ago. In respect of caravans, I've been towing since 1980. Back then, it was with Maxis (about 980kg towing limit) and a relatively lightweight – 780kg I believe – caravan. What I found was that up to about 40mph, or maybe 45, can't remember which, the outfit was unconditionally stable. At 50mph, it was stable until the bow-wave of an overtaking vehicle, and coaches were the worst, caused the caravan to start "wobbling", ie a pre-cursor to a full snake. Dropping the speed to 40 or so immediately stopped it, but I also learned to watch the mirror very carefully, and pull over towards the nearside as far as I could when being overtaken. Generally that prevented the problem.

Since then both car & caravan weights have increased, and certainly with the last three cars I've never had a problem with towing at the appropriate limit. Having said that, the caravan weights have been well within the maximum allowed for the car, although above the much quoted 85% ratio. But, I, or we as "The Boss" does some towing, always stick to the appropriate limit for our outfit. I did once try thrashing the outfit southbound on the A74M, but still within the limit – and paid the price in a very heavy fuel consumption. Never again!

A lot of caravan towers swear by a so-called stabilizer. I did use one for a few years, but in reality I never noticed any difference. As it happens, the present outfit has the built-in Alko stabilizer so I can no longer compare with or without.

Peter G. Shaw

An edit. The above does not make me an expert. I am merely offering my experiences. Others will think differently.

Edited By Peter G. Shaw on 09/01/2022 10:51:11

[Ex contributorParticipant @mgnbuk]

the car was certainly capable, a 1.8GLi Cavalier

May have been the car at fault. A late friend had a Cavalier 4 x 4 & he had a similar incident while towing a boat – the trailer became unstable for no apparent reason & the tailer eventually jack-knifed, the car ended up pushed up against the central reservation barrier of the M42 & the boat came off the trailer.

He had towed the same boat with other cars without any issues, but didn't trust the Cavalier & sold it after it had been repaired. Suprisingly little wear to the keel of the GRP ski boat after a skid down the road.

Towing at 70+ and using the the outside lane of a 3 lane motorway is something I regularly see on my commute & I was unfotrunate to hit by the trailer of such a user which did £4000 worth of damage to my motorhome.

The offending vehicle was a 3.5 tonne pickup towing a 4 wheel trailer carrying a mini excavator – I was in Lane 2 passing a HGV on the M11, doing around 60mph. The van passed me rapidly (75+ in all probability) but failed to allow for the length of the trailer when he pulled in front of me & hit the front of my van with the trailer. The other driver didn't stop & actively tried to evade me by coming off the motorway at the next junction & ran red lights etc to get away. Fortunately my wife managed to get some pictures of the van before I gave up following him & reported the incident, but Essex Police never followed it up. From the registration number on the pictures it turned out the van was registered, taxed & insured. The van insurers eventually accepted liability & paid out for my repairs after the pickup owner failed to respond to his insurer's enquiries about the incident & they concluded he was at fault on the basis of my submission. Still a lot of hassle, over 15 months to sort everything out & get my excess returned.

Nigel B.

[Robert Atkinson 2Participant @robertatkinson2]

Another rule often overlooked or not known about is the speed limit for vans, pick-ups and minibuses on a dual carriageway in the UK.

Anyone who thinks it is 70MPH needs a refresher. The speed limit for commercial vehicles on a dual carriageway is 60MPH. That's not just vehicles over 7500kg. There are exceptions. The main one is for "Car derived vans" but it has to say this as he body type on the registration document of the vehicle. There are also exemptions for Dual-purpose vehicles. Dual-purpose vehicles include 4WD and "crew-cab" types with two rows of seats. However the max GVW is 2005kg. Again it depends on what it says on the registration document. This makes pick-up trucks difficut to judge. A 2WD 2 or 3 seater is limited to 60 MPH otheres may not be. The curent boom in pick-up trucks is mainly due to their low taxation as a company vehicle.
The typical white "transit" is limited to 60 MPH on a DC and 70 MPH on a motorway. Over 7500kg is 60 MPH on both.

https://www.gov.uk/speed-limits

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/car-derived-vans-and-dual-purpose-vehicles/car-derived-vans-and-dual-purpose-vehicles

Robert G8RPI.

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi, I agree with Robert about speed limits for commercial vehicles, but a lot of people don't seem to know it or they blatantly ignore it. UK Speed limits and I've seen them in the outside lane of 3 and 4 lane motorways with a trailer and caravans.

I've never towed a caravan, but have towed my own and other trailers during my day jobs, but the largest one I towed was a six wheel all steel flat bed one weighing 1 Tonne and was around 5M or so long and had 2 Tonnes of steel weed screen sections on and had to take it via Boston in Lincolnshire up to a little place called Strubby which is not to far from Mablethorpe, the A16 wasn't to bad, but the A1104 was a bit of an experience with such a long heavy load behind a Navara pick up and I had to do it twice. (but not on the same day)

Regards Nick.

[Ex contributorParticipant @mgnbuk]

a six wheel all steel flat bed one weighing 1 Tonne and was around 5M or so long and had 2 Tonnes of steel weed screen sections on …………. behind a Navara pick up

If you were doing that for business purposes you are required to have a tachograph fitted, as the total weight of vehicle & trailer would be over 3.5 tonnes.

Speed limits for vans are also lower on single carriageway roads – 50mph not 60. Found that out the expensive way many years ago with the previuos employment !

Nigel B

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi Nigel, yes it was all above board.

Regards Nick.

[RMAParticipant @rma]

Interesting range of viewpoints on several subjects in this thread now.

As an ex cyclist, I think anyone attempting to fight it out with modern day traffic is clearly bonkers, even though the law seems to be on the cyclist's side! No good telling St Peter you had the right of way!

When I towed a caravan many years ago, it was other traffic that held me up. I took it to many countries in Europe including mountain ranges. If you have the right towing vehicle for whatever you tow, you won't get into trouble.

It seems to me that vans belonging to Amazon and the like can, and do whatever they like. They work all hours with no control such as tacho's. The only code they seem to have is to deliver as many parcels in one day, as quickly as possible. An unfair side of the law IMO when compared to lorry drivers

[Nicholas FarrParticipant @nicholasfarr14254]

Hi RMA, I haven't ever seen an Amazon van deliver to mine, it's usually some old white van that belongs to the driver, many of which shouldn't be delivering to mine either as it should have been someone they passed a quarter of a mile away, some of them seem to come in their own cars even.

Regards Nick.

[Bo’sunParticipant @bosun58570]

Clearly not just an issue with the Highway Code, but I see "General Licences" have been amended for the control of pest species. Not sure to what extent, I'll have a look on the BASC website later. They usually provide a clear interpretation.

[HOWARDTParticipant @howardt]

Nicholas, have often wondered if those delivery people using their own cars are in fact insured for the purpose, I expect not. Our favourite non delivery company seems to be the main one using the local house wives for the end delivery, back seat full of possible expensive parcels.

Perhaps if we had a few more police or equivalent on the footpaths we pedestrians could feel a bit more at ease using them.

[RMAParticipant @rma]

Posted by Nicholas Farr on 10/01/2022 12:28:12:

Hi RMA, I haven't ever seen an Amazon van deliver to mine, it's usually some old white van that belongs to the driver, many of which shouldn't be delivering to mine either as it should have been someone they passed a quarter of a mile away, some of them seem to come in their own cars even.

Regards Nick.

We've recently had a new Amazon distribution centre planted in our parish, encouraged by the council who decided no infrastructure improvements were required! Amazon have a huge fleet of blue vans at this depot which tend to leave as a convoy interspersed with private vans of all colours and condition!

Very little regard is paid to the rules of the roundabout at the junction with the main A road which, when they are on it, they go like a bat out of hell, weaving in and out, due I expect as a result of the pressure put on them to deliver!

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