Help with a broken Sieg Super X3

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Posted by StephenS on 02/11/2021 10:43:50:

I have spoken to the NZ dealer ExpressNet, also goes by the name Seig-Machines.co.nz, and he said that his business being closed is news to him. Assuming I have the right outfit, how does this relate to what you have found out Ketan? Not doubting anyone, just interested to know the truth.

Last purchase made by ExpressNet from SIEG was in 2019. The translation of communication between them and SIEG led to presumptions at SIEG that they had closed. I guess that if ExpressNet is saying that they are open, then they are open.

Maybe ExpressNet have enough stock, so they have yet to place new orders onto SIEG? Difficult to say. All I can do is apologise for SIEGs presumption and my relaying that message earlier.

Ketan at ARC

[StephenSParticipant @stephens]

Sorry to hijack this thread.

No need to apologise Ketan, you commented as you thought things were, and it served as a call to be vigilant.

From my conversation with James at ExpressNet, it would seem that he does not hold any stock and orders from the SIEG factory when he gets an order. My enquiry was for a SX2 P and he said delivery probably mid January and probably direct from the wharf to my home.

Many thanks Ketan for all your contributions to this forum. They are very much appreciated – please do keep them up. I would buy from you but the shipping from UK to NZ makes purchases very expensive.

StephenS.

[StephenSParticipant @stephens]

Should have added before I posted the comments, that I will probably buy some things from you Ketan, as the lighter things can still be cheaper than what is available locally here in NZ.

StephenS.

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

My apologies for adding to the diversion on this thread too..

StephenS,

Thank you for the clarification.

If James at ExpressNet places an order for your machine directly with SIEG, he will find that the delivery will be around five months minimum if he is lucky. If you intend to make any deposit commitments on those assurances, please be careful.

I am also unsure about how successful he would be in delivering an order for one small machine, especially as the last communication he had with SIEG was in 2019. I also don't know if it would be viable for SIEG to ship one small machine.

There are a lot of delays at present for fulfilment of orders from all Chinese factories. Problem with deliveries from component suppliers. Some component factories are working on a three day week due to electricity supply shortage. Cast iron and other component costs increased by upto 15%, resulting in re-negotiations, all leading to delay in assembly. lack of containers available to book, lack of shipping space, congestion at ports be they in Shanghai or in U.K. case Felixstowe and Southampton, increase in shipping costs, all resulting in delays and increased costs, without real certainty on delivery schedules.

As a simple example, our team at ARC is offloading a 40ft. container today which has orders which were placed in October last year, January and April this year. Expected delivery was to be between April to July. The delay has been costly in many ways. Thankfully, ARC does not take advance deposits from customers.

In short, if something is available in stock near you, consider that option first. AUSEE in Melbourne Australia are also out of stock of SX2P, but they may have one or two pieces of SX2LF with R8 spindle left. I don't know what quote James gave you for SX2P for future delivery. You may wish to ask AUSEE to quote for the SX2LF version they have in stock. and compare. Alternatively there are other small size machines out there in other makes/brands, which you could consider if in stock near you.

Good luck.

Ketan at ARC

[Nathan AdamsonParticipant @nathanadamson57464]

Posted by Ketan Swali on 02/11/2021 11:51:10:

Posted by Nathan Adamson on 31/10/2021 03:17:24:

Thanks everyone for all the suggestions, I have contacted the closest distributor (in another country still) and am waiting to hear back from them, they have every electrical part in stock, just need to figure out which part I need

Nathan,

I am a little confused.

You state that you contacted the closest distributor in another country.

• Which dealer did you contact? Was it AUSEE?..
• if you saw the parts on AUSEEs site, they appear to be some of the older parts rather than the newer parts as shown in the page link which I posted earlier.
• Depending on age of machine – based on serial number of the machine, you could replace old part with old part, and hope that the problem resolves and doesn't come back again. Or, you can refer to ARC page I have linked to, read it carefully and ask the supplier to give you the newer parts.
• If you have the old arrangement/board, and if you decide to consider to replace with the newer board, you will need all the components stated in the link. Check the control board currently fitted to your machine.

What ever you decide to do, take plenty of pictures before/during the dismantling/change over process, or ideally get a competent professional to carry out the work. As these are electrical components, they will not carry guarantee or warranty. There is no wiring diagram, and no supplier will be able to hold your hand or assist you through the installation process. There is next to zero knowledge or assistance on the Internet/forum to guide you through the process.

If you buy the wrong things without looking at the pictures of the boards/components, or without clear understanding, then chances of fizz, crackle, pop will be high. If things go wrong, this thread will then turn into a long discussion between you and others to figure out what went wrong,… a kind of situation with 'the blind leading the blind'…, especially as no one really knows which version of the SX3 you have… and quite frankly, with the greatest of respect… I honestly doubt that anyone on this forum is realistically qualified to be able to offer remote support or comment on the electrical assembly of the SX3…. and it is nothing to do with the machine being 'Made in China'… and the components are not cheap!

Ketan at ARC

Hi Ketan,

I contacted Ausee (primarily because the nz based dealer website looks like a scam, it’s very poorly designed and does not look very legitimate, I could of course be totally wrong but nevertheless I went with Ausee)

So visually the control board on the link you posted looks identical to mine – but so does the one on the Ausee site

I found the serial number on the top of the column, it’s 30901

The guy from Ausee said it could be a 2003 or 2013 but that’s all he could tell me

I found a sticker on control board that says

”Z1000 1/230v SN:W2013120076”

Would that perhaps mean it’s a 2013?

Any light you could shed on identifying what year mine would be greatly appreciated

Thanks

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Posted by Nathan Adamson on 04/11/2021 09:24:01:

Hi Ketan,

I contacted Ausee (primarily because the nz based dealer website looks like a scam, it’s very poorly designed and does not look very legitimate, I could of course be totally wrong but nevertheless I went with Ausee)

So visually the control board on the link you posted looks identical to mine – but so does the one on the Ausee site

I found the serial number on the top of the column, it’s 30901

The guy from Ausee said it could be a 2003 or 2013 but that’s all he could tell me

I found a sticker on control board that says

”Z1000 1/230v SN:W2013120076”

Would that perhaps mean it’s a 2013?

Any light you could shed on identifying what year mine would be greatly appreciated

Thanks

Hi Nathan,

In SIEG numbering system, serial number 30901 can mean it could be 2003 or 2013, but in your case it means 2013, because SX3 model was born much later than 2003.

If you re-look on this page link, and combine it with the 'Z1000 1/230v SN:W2013120076' sticker, this would suggest that you have the old board. The old board has a Relay on the board. The new board does not have a Relay on the board.

• If you replace old board with new 'old type'Z1000-1 board with Relay, the set-up should work, and as long as you do not keep pressing the e-stop to stop the machine all the time, you will be okay. e-stop only to be used in case of emergency. To generally stop the machine, use the STOP button.
• If you replace old board with new Z1000-1A board, which does not have a Relay then you will also have to replace all the other components as stated in the link. Again, e-stop button for emergency use only.

So, you need to re-look at your board, take a picture and decide / re-confirm if it looks identical to old board or new board, i.e. old with relay or new without relay, and then decide what you want to do.

Hope above information helps.

Ketan at ARC.

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

With two boards in Ketan's link saying yours look identical is not much help! Can you post a photo?

Your sticker's Z1000 1/ 230………….. would make it an early board according to what it says in Ketan's link as it doe snot contain the "A" so if replaced with the new one you will also have to replace all the other parts that Ketan lists.

 

EDIT He beat me to it.

Edited By JasonB on 04/11/2021 10:07:36

[Nathan AdamsonParticipant @nathanadamson57464]

Ketan/Jason – thank you both

i did completely miss the relay in the image. Yes mine has one, so that’s great we have established it’s age and also the type of board

Ketan, I am guilty of using the e-stop button I would say at least half the amount of time I have used the machine – I assume your warning against this is because it can in some way damage the machine? Perhaps then I caused or contributed this fault?

Thanks

[Simon CollierParticipant @simoncollier74340]

Looking at the boards, they look the same except for the relay being present or absent. How does the new board work without it? Is it a cost cutting measure perhaps?

I bought my SX3 from Hare&Forbes in late 2006. The control panel board has been replaced but main board is original. It does not lack power. I have found it very good generally, but I hate the speed “buttons” and would love a rotary knob instead. The Z axis readout is cheap and nasty with the battery often needing jiggling to make contact. The tapping switches in the handles have not worked for years and I was told this is a main board fault. Perhaps I should buy an old style main board from Ausee while still available?

I always greatly value Ketan’s expert contributions to this forum.

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Posted by Nathan Adamson on 04/11/2021 18:16:30:

Ketan/Jason – thank you both

i did completely miss the relay in the image. Yes mine has one, so that’s great we have established it’s age and also the type of board

Ketan, I am guilty of using the e-stop button I would say at least half the amount of time I have used the machine – I assume your warning against this is because it can in some way damage the machine? Perhaps then I caused or contributed this fault?

Thanks

Hi Nathan,

By 2013, the torque issue was well fixed. The small e-stop in itself tended to fail if over-used/abused. I do not know the correct electronics terminology, but in simple terms, it failed/seized/fused. This came to light when we started getting claims under warranty, or more requests for the e-stop switch as a component, from customers who were being trained to use the machine in the in-correct way by another company. In a small number of cases, the small e-stop button failed after correct use, but this was more prevalent in countries with 220v/240v power electricity. ARC is not an expert in electronics, but we do ask customers what happened, how it happened, resulting in specific failure. We then reported our observations back to SIEG. Hence earlier I stated the idea of failure of the e-stop switch due to incorrect use or the switch assembly itself.

The probability of the failure of the control board due to regular use/abuse of the e-stop is low. It might be a combination of events. e.g. its use with an abnormal overload event such as the mill being used hard beyond its capabilities- how heavy handed it is being used, or on dirty unknown material with many hard spots /hard material like boiler plate – shocking the system, and/or a spike/overload power supply event – dirty power – which are regularly seen though out the U.K.,, 260v+ for example (yes it does happen, and this has been discussed many times, as well as recorded at our premises, where all our computers/server are connected to dedicated UPSs). Usually, the machine stops.. in a way as to say… I have had enough. Some customers ignore this sign, and re-continue to abuse. However, the machine has its limited. If abused regularly by an individual or by a variety of knuckle heads in a heavy handed way, it will give up and damage the control board. If there is dirty power, especially on farms/rural areas in the U.K., we suggest that the customer invests in a simple plug – surge protector plug specifically for the machine. This will probably/hopefully – but not guaranteed – kill dirty power supply to the machine before such supply kills the board. If this happens, please be aware that such cheap surge protector plugs only work a few times, before they give up too. So changing such plugs after a couple of such events may be a good idea too.

There are electrical experts on this forum who will disagree with my comments, quote 'not fit for purse' – or refuse to accept what I say – quoting old is always gold, without understanding what the machine is all about, or without understanding the capabilities of the user or how the user used the machine. As I said before, ARC is not an expert in electronics. I can only make suggestions based on what ARC has seen. This does not mean that the machine is full proof. It only means that the user has a part to play in the story too. It would be wrong to just assume that the machine is cheap Chinese crap.

As your machine is second hand, it comes down to what do you really know about its history before you got it? As i said before, was the spindle torque low when you got it, or, did this result from an adverse event after you got the machine?, or was the board always faulty from the day the first buyer received it? – also possible.

Personally, I would suggest you consider the upgrade assembly of components, but you will need to take plenty of pictures before you cut/re-connect any wires, and/or involve a competent person to carry out the change. This will give you a more long term solution.

Ketan at ARC

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Posted by Simon Collier on 04/11/2021 21:18:58:

Looking at the boards, they look the same except for the relay being present or absent. How does the new board work without it? Is it a cost cutting measure perhaps?

I bought my SX3 from Hare&Forbes in late 2006. The control panel board has been replaced but main board is original. It does not lack power. I have found it very good generally, but I hate the speed “buttons” and would love a rotary knob instead. The Z axis readout is cheap and nasty with the battery often needing jiggling to make contact. The tapping switches in the handles have not worked for years and I was told this is a main board fault. Perhaps I should buy an old style main board from Ausee while still available?

I always greatly value Ketan’s expert contributions to this forum.

Hi Simon,

It is good to know that your 2006 version is running fine with the original – correctly programmed for torque board.

In my response to Naihan, I explained the issue with the small e-stop button. In your case, I am presuming that you have had no reason to change the small e-stop button. If my presumption is correct, then it suggests that your e-stop button is fine, and that you are using the estop button less, to stop the machine, and using the STOP button instead to stop the machine.

Unfortunately, due to improper training/knowledge/warranty claims, such distributors were automatically claiming on SIEG under warranty, without asking customers what happened, why it happened etc.. This was a wrong and stupid practice of such distributors as it would ultimately increase costs long terms due to their incompetence. ARC refused to honour many of such claims for the estop button, – on a case by case basis – after determining the cause through discussion with the customer.

To deal with this problem, the relay was removed from the control board, and the new bigger estop was used as shown in the link I posted earlier, resulting in removal of the relay from the board. The new switch is more expensive. So, not a cost cutting measure… but more of dealing with user related issues. The new customers ultimately paid more.

Ketan at ARC

[Anonymous]

Posted by Ketan Swali on 04/11/2021 22:43:22:

There are electrical experts on this forum who will disagree with my comments…………

I was going to offer an explanation based on knowledge, and the observed failures, but upon reflection I'd better keep quiet.

Andrew

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Posted by Andrew Johnston on 05/11/2021 08:17:49:

Posted by Ketan Swali on 04/11/2021 22:43:22:

There are electrical experts on this forum who will disagree with my comments…………

I was going to offer an explanation based on knowledge, and the observed failures, but upon reflection I'd better keep quiet.

Andrew

Lol Andrew . I have been on this forum since it’s birth. We have known each other on here for well over a decade now.

I have always respected your comments, even if sometimes I have failed to agree with them in specific contexts and expectations for specific hobby or light weight machines at specific price bands. As mentioned before in other threads in the past, you are privileged as your machines comprise mainly of old heavy weight industrial machines, rather than the type of machine being talked about in this thread. Where applicable, due to your extensive knowledge on electronics, you have also upgraded the electronics for some of your machines, and you are able to use much bigger cutters with related feeds, speeds, depths of cuts, suited to your heavier machines, which is outside the scope of these lighter duty machines. Most people here do not possess this knowledge of electronics, nor do they have machines which are in your arsenal. So in my opinion it would be wrong to encourage such conversation related specifically to this machine.

It is easy to comment by some about what the manufacturer did wrong in their build of a machine after a problem comes to light. It is also easy to say cheap components were used and people are entitled to their opinion. At times I too am guilty of making such comments.

In your specific case Andrew, you do know what you are talking about with electronics and I do bow down to your superior knowledge. If your comments are helpful in helping Nathan in this particular case, without getting into a fit for purse debate, well and good. 🙂

Either way, I too am aware that this is an open forum where everyone can debate. I appreciate this and I apologies for giving the impression that there is no interest in your explanation.

Ketan at ARC

 

Edited By Ketan Swali on 05/11/2021 09:36:49

[Simon CollierParticipant @simoncollier74340]

Ketan, have you come across the problem of failure of the tapping forward-reverse buttons on the end of the handles? Can you confirm that it is a main board failure as I was told by a serviceman?

I wish I understood electronics but alas, I know nothing.

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

I think Andrew is keeping quiet because he has previously stated that (extra) circuits to fully protect the systems would cost more – and these were machines built down to a price….

Ketan’s experience is not to be ignored. He likely knows as much (or probably more) about these machines as anyone in the UK.

I am probably in Andrew’s camp on the subject, from his point of view. Too many failures have occurred over the years. Machines really need to be ‘idiot-proof’ in this day and age. My experience is is only that of others who have cooked their motors by over-loading at much reduced spindle speeds. It is not just Sieg machines – all the chinese machines of similar ilk have been prone to failure or abuse.

I expect that lots of similar machines, bought very cheaply from dubious sources, have been quietly disposed of as ‘boat anchors’ over the years.

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Posted by Simon Collier on 05/11/2021 09:34:52:

Ketan, have you come across the problem of failure of the tapping forward-reverse buttons on the end of the handles? Can you confirm that it is a main board failure as I was told by a serviceman?

I wish I understood electronics but alas, I know nothing.

Hi Simon,

That makes two of us regarding electronics.

In the earlier years we have come across the problem you have observed. Most of the time this was a mechanical assembly contact issue, but it did not create a main board failure. We have not come across this in the past five odd years. It was brought to light by a customer in those days. He went on to write an improvement article about it which was printed in an issue of MEW. Unfortunately I cant remember which issue the article was published in, or who the customer was. So I am unable to direct you to the said article.

Ketan at ARC

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Posted by not done it yet on 05/11/2021 09:38:33:

I think Andrew is keeping quiet because he has previously stated that (extra) circuits to fully protect the systems would cost more – and these were machines built down to a price….

Ketan’s experience is not to be ignored. He likely knows as much (or probably more) about these machines as anyone in the UK.

I am probably in Andrew’s camp on the subject, from his point of view. Too many failures have occurred over the years. Machines really need to be ‘idiot-proof’ in this day and age. My experience is is only that of others who have cooked their motors by over-loading at much reduced spindle speeds. It is not just Sieg machines – all the chinese machines of similar ilk have been prone to failure or abuse.

I expect that lots of similar machines, bought very cheaply from dubious sources, have been quietly disposed of as ‘boat anchors’ over the years.

Hi NDIY,

This is an example of the debate I wanted to keep away from.

It really does not matter about in whose camp you are in.

The brushless motors specifically used by SIEG in the brushless series of machines are far more reliable than the old brushed motor models. The related control boards for the brushless motors specifically used by SIEG, again are far more reliable than the ones used for the brushed motor versions. Yes, component failure with any machine is still an issue in some cases, but as I said before, user inexperience is still a very strong contributing factor… but then again, as a seller i would say that.

I have clearly explained that brushless motor is less likely to have damaged. I have clearly said that the control board for the brushless motor version , even though it has overload protection, 'finally gives up the ghost' if the machine is regularly abused. Thankfully in the world scheme of users, such events for SIEG brushless machines a very low. This statement does not apply to other manufacturers brushless machines, many of which have lower rated brushless motors, still poorly programmed control boards, with mechanical gear combinations which are simply wrong in our opinion.

So, now referring to the 'fit for purse' comment… the SIEG brushless models are far more expensive than the brushed models of what ever nature out there. They are a lot more reliable and this results in cost increase. But as they are more expensive than the brushed models, sales for brushless are less than brushed.

Customer buys what he /she can afford. In the brushed models the motors can be as expensive as you want and as cheap as you want. the control boards can be with all bells and whistles – with overload protection or without overload protection, all reflected in the price, however, not reflected in the marketing by many distributors, many of whom talk up a low specification machine in their marketing BS. This i would agree is wrong.

All of this leads to greater sales of cheaper machines, to a new customer base which has reduced mechanical knowledge than the previous generation, for historical reasons, resulting in greater increase in machine failures.

As a result it would be wrong for me say what is really right or wrong and the debate can carry on and on without any real end point.

Ketan at ARC

[Simon CollierParticipant @simoncollier74340]

I’ll check my old copies tomorrow. I remember one article for a graduated quill depth stop which I made.

[mark costello 1Participant @markcostello1]

Ketan and Others behind the curtain People, Your commitment to after the sales service is impressive. Now if You could only have a presence across the pond.

[Simon CollierParticipant @simoncollier74340]

I think Ketan is one of a kind. Many a time I have wished Arc Euro was in a local industrial area rather than the other side of the world.

[Anonymous]

Posted by Ketan Swali on 05/11/2021 09:23:56:

If your comments are helpful in helping Nathan in this particular case…………..

I don't have wiring diagrams, or schematics, for the machine in question, so I can't offer specific help. The intention was to outline switch failures in general and make some comments on why the emergency switches may have failed with the characteristics seen. Never mind, serves me right for breaking my own rule of avoiding electronics dicussions on the forum.

Andrew

[Michael GilliganParticipant @michaelgilligan61133]

Posted by Andrew Johnston on 05/11/2021 20:24:33:

[…]

The intention was to outline switch failures in general and make some comments on why the emergency switches may have failed with the characteristics seen. […]

.

I, for one, would find that very interesting Andrew … it may, or may not, be directly relevant to this thread; but if you would like to start a new thread “The trouble with switches” [or some-such], I will be reading it.

MichaelG.

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Posted by Andrew Johnston on 05/11/2021 20:24:33:

Posted by Ketan Swali on 05/11/2021 09:23:56:

If your comments are helpful in helping Nathan in this particular case…………..

I don't have wiring diagrams, or schematics, for the machine in question, so I can't offer specific help. The intention was to outline switch failures in general and make some comments on why the emergency switches may have failed with the characteristics seen. Never mind, serves me right for breaking my own rule of avoiding electronics dicussions on the forum.

Andrew

There is no offence intended by my last response to you.

If you believe that your comments are going to be helpful to Nathan in this particular case, even if such comments are general comments about estop switches, then make them, or not, as you prefer. Or take up Michael’s suggestion and raise a different post, for more people to read and understand estop switches better. It may make an interesting thread on its own.

Ketan at ARC

Edited By Ketan Swali on 05/11/2021 21:49:58

[Steve GarryParticipant @stevegarry36500]

So, I read a lot of threads across a wide range of sites, it's how I get background knowledge of issues I may face, or how to do things, and this thread caught my eye because I recently bought a little used SX2P mill from a UK seller on E-bay, as it ticked a lot of boxes for me, and will make a very useful addition to the ML7 that I've had for a long time, and not really used as much as I should have.

So, why the post you may ask, and the simple reason is that I want to recognise and compliment the support that Ketan Swali is providing for the users of Sieg machines in the UK, and then in this thread to a user in New Zealand.

I've not dealt with ARC yet, as I'm still sorting out the workshop after it was disorgansed by work being carried out to solve a flooding issue, (at one stage, they were going to completely demolish it) and being in the garage while they were using a 250 Tonne capacity crane to lift 9 tonne concrete pipes over and around the garage was an activity that was "discouraged", while they couldn't actually ban me from using the garage, it was a bad idea from a safety aspect.

I've been impressed for a few weeks now by the level of support that Ketan has been providing, and I am fairly sure that it won't be long before I am talking to them about consumables and similar for the mill, it came with a good range of extras, but that will change before long. I already have some plans for upgrades, I came across an excellent gas strut support design in a thread here that mounts inside the column, and I have some ideas for a DRO system that will hopefully also be usable on the Myford, so there's some work to be done there, before I make a start on the project that's one of the main reasons for upgrading the workshop, I'm hoping to start working on a SM32 scale NGG16, with the intention of running it on a new track to be laid in the garden once the flood scheme is eventually finished, it will go alongside a very early Roundhouse Fowler and several much modified Mamod locomotives that haven't seen a run in anger for a long time.

Life would have been much easier if Brexit hadn't happened, getting anything shipped from the UK to Ireland has become a regal pain, between the paperwork and finding a courier that will actually take the shipment, what used to be easy is very much no longer so, and there's a very distinct lack of suppliers for the hobby trade in Ireland, it was fortune that the mill came up on E-Bay while we were in the UK dealing with some family issues, it saved a lot of hassles.

Hopefully, the next 12 months will be a lot more interesting, the flood scheme was meant to be finished several years ago, but they ran into a whole range of issues, made worse by Covid, at least I can start work on some hobby stuff now, having at last managed to retire from the part time job I'd been doing.

So, thanks to Ketan for providing a level of support that's making this user of Sieg hardware feel a lot more comfortable about having bought one, and hopefully there will be other things over time to add to the list.

[Author]

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