Help with a broken Sieg Super X3

[Nathan AdamsonParticipant @nathanadamson57464]

Hi guys,

I’m looking for some info on the Sieg Super X3 mill control boards

Bought second with it having done virtually no work, was underwhelmed by its performance power wise, it would stall when drilling an 8mm hole into 10mm thick plate – not what I expected from a 1000w motor as my cheap no brand 300w hobby drill press could do it fine

So after only using maybe a dozen times over the last month I found myself needing to drill a 12mm hole in some plate steel so I figured I’d take it slow, as expected it stalled, but then on the screen it come up with “Err” and it wouldn’t start again. Power off at the wall, back on and it started again and I proceeded to drill again, it stalled again and had “Err” message only this time I turned it off and on again the LCD blue back light comes on and that’s it, she’s dead!

I assume it’s the control board, I’ve also read that these have torque issues with earlier control boards.

Does anyone know

a) Was there a specific list of serial numbers for the dud controllers so I can avoid this

b) Where do I get a new board from

c) Can they be repaired and also have the torque issue fixed?

Thanks

Nathan

[Nathan AdamsonParticipant @nathanadamson57464]

Failed control board?

[Brian GParticipant @briang]

Posted by Nathan Adamson on 20/10/2021 10:45:52:

…b) Where do I get a new board from…

Hi Nathan

If you are in the UK give Arc Euro Trade a ring, I have always found them helpful. Although they show the boards as out of stock, they may be able to confirm which board you need and when/if they can get one.

Brian G

[Anonymous]

Posted by Nathan Adamson on 20/10/2021 10:45:52:

c) ………..and also have the torque issue fixed?

No idea about a new board, but the torque issue is inherent to the design. The fundamental equation is:

Power (W) = Torque (Nm) x Angular velocity (radians/sec)

Simple motor speed controllers have constant torque as the speed decreases. Consequently spindle power decreases in proportion to the reduction in speed. The 1000W motor may only be providing 100W at the lowest speed. That's why industrial machines have stepped belt or geared drives. IIn those cases as the speed is decreased the torque goes up and spindle power stays constant. A simple PCB is much cheaper than a belt or geared drive head which is why it's done.

Some newer variable speed mills have a "hi-torque" capability which provides more current to the motor at lower speeds and hence more torque, and power. That helps but can't completely compensate for the loss of power as the increase in current causes more heating within the motor, which of itself can be terminal.

Andrew

[Clive HartlandParticipant @clivehartland94829]

My Sieg 3 has two speed ranges, Hi and low. Check the knob on the side of the head.

I have not found any Torque problems on mine using the two speed range, perhaps get a hand book of user instructions?

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

The SX3 which the OP has is direct drive unlike the X3 which has hi/low ranges

[Nathan AdamsonParticipant @nathanadamson57464]

Posted by Brian G on 20/10/2021 13:26:58:

Posted by Nathan Adamson on 20/10/2021 10:45:52:

…b) Where do I get a new board from…

Hi Nathan

If you are in the UK give Arc Euro Trade a ring, I have always found them helpful. Although they show the boards as out of stock, they may be able to confirm which board you need and when/if they can get one.

Brian G

Thanks Brian, I am about as far away from the UK as one can get, little old New Zealand. I did email Arc Euro but they never responded

[Nathan AdamsonParticipant @nathanadamson57464]

Posted by Clive Hartland on 20/10/2021 14:38:00:

My Sieg 3 has two speed ranges, Hi and low. Check the knob on the side of the head.

I have not found any Torque problems on mine using the two speed range, perhaps get a hand book of user instructions?

Mine is the SX3, they don’t have hi and low, it’s a high torque variable speed drive (except mines not very high torque)

[not done it yetParticipant @notdoneityet]

Question, then, is which is faulty – board, motor. Or maybe both. Don’t just assume – you could easily be wrong.

Board can be checked by connecting an incandescent light bulb across the load terminals instead of the motor – the bulb should illuminate and dim/brighten as the motor control knob position is varied.

Motor can be checked by applying 12V across its terminals – it should motor slowly if a brushed motor. Not sure about a brushless type.

Dunno whether there are internal fuses or not. Dunno what the response is to protection circuit failures.

Seems like one or both is/are in need of replacement/repair.

It is a common operating fault of over-loading the system. These machines are only hobby machines, not for heavy commercial use.

Drilling large holes is achieved by step drilling – a pilot is recommended, along with sharp drills.

Personally, I would be hard pressed to entertain this type of drive – lathe or mill. But many have run these drives for many years without any problem. I think it is often a case of operator expecting more than the machine is capable of.

I can easily tell when my drives are reaching their limit. Possibly not so with the electronic drives?

[Rod RenshawParticipant @rodrenshaw28584]

I have always found Arc to give very good customer service.

Not replying to an email does not sound like their usual standard. I wonder if the omission is anything to do with staffing problems due to Covid, or perhaps just a random thing. It might be worth trying them again.

Rod

[Anonymous]

I think the hi-torque description implies a brushless DC motor, so the light bulb test, and motor across 12V, will not work. To see what is going on one would really need an oscilloscope.

My bet would be that the electronics is phut. Unfortunately one of the ways to cut costs is remove overload protection circuitry and/or use components that are only rated for normal use, not overload conditions. It may just be that a fuse has blown, but it's difficult to know without seeing a picture of the board in question. A definite sign would be any component, or part of the board, that is darkish brown or otherwise discoloured, meaning that something has got very hot.

Andrew

[JasonBModerator @jasonb]

I'm not sure if you can test the Brushless motors in the same way as the Brushed, with 9 wires to choose from and no way to connect the control circuit it may not be possible. As Andrew Hinted the SX3 does not have a "basic" motor control there are things like a hall sensor on the motor that lets the board monitor motor speed under load and adjust current etc as needed, there is also a different set of parameters when in tapping mode.

I understand a few very early machines may have been a bit lacking, a few came into the UK as Grey imports, I don't know exactly what was changed to get the current performance but as ARC did not bring these early machines into the country I doubt they could help much plus they usually don't like sending boards and motors overseas.

I'd take a look at any quick blow fuses, maybe one on the board and another externally on the head for starters. failing that try and track down the importer/dealer that it was originally bought from.

Not sure of the SX3 but my X3 just trips the protection if overloaded and I just reset it and carry on so looks like they did not skip on the protection on that machine at least.

Edited By JasonB on 21/10/2021 20:48:40

[Anonymous]

Posted by JasonB on 21/10/2021 20:47:07:

I'm not sure if you can test the Brushless motors in the same way as the Brushed………

I'm fairly sure it isn't possible. A brushed DC motor uses brushes and a mechanical commutator to switch current between colis. So to test, simply apply DC and the motor should turn. A brushless DC motor dispenses with the brushes (!) and commutator and relies on external electronic switches to switch current between coils. So if one applies DC direct to the coils nothing much will happen except there's a good chance of overheating the coil(s).

The Hall effect devices are there to monitor the rotor position so that the coils can be switched at the appropriate points in each revolution. A speed reading can obviously be derived from the output of the Hall devices but it's not their primary purpose. it is possible to dispense with the Hall devices and use backemf from the non-driven coils to determine switch timing. Of course that doesn't work when the motor is stationary as there is no backemf. So on starting the controller starts at an arbitrary position and if the motor doesn't run properly it makes adjustments until the motor is running correctly, with a bit of luck.

Andrew

[Paul LousickParticipant @paullousick59116]

Hi Nathon,

I am across the pond from you in Australia. My first mill was an SX3 which I purchased from Hare and Forbes (Hafco) in Sydney and was used to machine most of the parts for my 6" traction engine. The electronic controller for the brushless motor started giving problems and Hafco no longer supported Sieg machines and I replaced it with an HF-45 (Rong-Fu clone) which has an AC motor and mechanical gearbox.

Ausee Machines in Melbourne are now agents for Sieg **LINK**

Paul.

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Posted by Nathan Adamson on 21/10/2021 18:46:45:

Posted by Brian G on 20/10/2021 13:26:58:

Posted by Nathan Adamson on 20/10/2021 10:45:52:

…b) Where do I get a new board from…

Hi Nathan

If you are in the UK give Arc Euro Trade a ring, I have always found them helpful. Although they show the boards as out of stock, they may be able to confirm which board you need and when/if they can get one.

Brian G

Thanks Brian, I am about as far away from the UK as one can get, little old New Zealand. I did email Arc Euro but they never responded

Hi Nathan,

Normally, we aim to respond to emails within 24 working hours. Your email was received at 06.49 GMT on 19 October 2021, and replied at 09.21 GMT on the same day. If the reply has gone to your spam folder, you may wish to check there. Copy of the same email has also been sent to you today by Ian.

We also received a phone call replicating the contents of your opening post, and a member of our team spoke to the person, and at the time, we presumed that person to be you. We also presumed the call to be made from within the U.K., as no indication is made in your original email that the enquiry is from NZ .

If we were wrong in our presumption, and If you fail to receive the email again, you can call and speak with Ian, after 09.00 GMT.

Now that we are aware that this requirement of control board is for NZ, we are unable to ship electrical components such as the control board to your destination, for a variety of reasons. You will need to refer to the NZ dealer or the Australian dealer for your requirements for this machine.

For other points raised in your opening post, I will respond with further posts below.

Ketan at ARC

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Update: Just been advised that NZ dealer has closed his business. You can refer to Australian dealer – AUSEE.

Ketan at ARC.

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Posted by Nathan Adamson on 20/10/2021 10:45:52:

I assume it’s the control board, I’ve also read that these have torque issues with earlier control boards.

Does anyone know

a) Was there a specific list of serial numbers for the dud controllers so I can avoid this

b) Where do I get a new board from

c) Can they be repaired and also have the torque issue fixed?

Thanks

Nathan

It all depends on the age of the machine, combined with user related issues.

The first SX3 was sent to ARC for testing over ten years ago. It had serious torque issues. During tests under a controlled environment wearing a gauntlet – not something I would suggest anyone to do – it was very easily possible to stop a running spindle at low speed. This was due to incorrect programing of a chip for torque on SX3 and SC4 lathe. ARC refused to take on said machines. They still appeared on the market trough certain official dealers, as well as unofficial dealers. So this explanation deals with some of the machines which are over 10 years old.

ARC started selling SX3 only after above problem was fixed, probably around 9 to 10 years ago. Whilst these problems were fixed, some issues appeared with control panel for a short time, which were fixed. Then came issues with the e-stop, which was a combination of E-stop switch performance in itself, as well as user related issue, whereby some users were using the e-stop to stop the machine, instead of the on/off switch. Too much use/abuse of the e-stop switch resulted in various faults developing. Unfortunately incorrect training offered by a particular distributor – promoting the incorrect use of the e-stop in the training course – also contributed to this problem.

The above machine related issues were dealt with and ironed out in the majority of cases over 7 odd years ago, and it is rare now a days for us to come across this – machine related issue. Due to its positive torque performance over time, this was one of the first machines for which ARC provided warranty around 5 years ago for hobby as well as light industrial use for an individual user. For most smaller SIEG machines, ARC provided warranty for hobby use only. The SX3 still remains one of the most popular SIEG machines in the ARC product range.

With reference to your second hand purchase, it is difficult to say if the fault you have observed results from a machine related issue or a user related issue. If it is a very old machine with the original poorly programmed board, perhaps the original user didn't know any better, or, if the machine was used/abused to deal with work beyond its capacity/capability, fault/s developed…. as was the case with Paul Lousick's SX3 to which he refers in his post… as far as we are concerned.

So, it is wrong to paint an 'underwhelming' brush on the SX3s without really knowing what is the real story with the second hand machine which you have purchased… probably at a knocked down price…. as many in your situation do.

Age of the machine is determined from the serial number. in the case of the SX3, this is to be found on top of the column casting. You will need to get on top of a stool and then look on the top. We can figure out the built age from the serial number.

Then you need to look at this page link on our site to figure out all the things you will need and ask for said parts from the SIEG distributor in Australia – if he can supply.

Nobody really knows what is the cause of your particular fault. To the best of my knowledge, the board is not repairable.

Ketan at ARC.

[SillyOldDufferModerator @sillyoldduffer]

Posted by Andrew Johnston on 21/10/2021 21:37:20:

Posted by JasonB on 21/10/2021 20:47:07:

I'm not sure if you can test the Brushless motors in the same way as the Brushed………

I'm fairly sure it isn't possible. …

Andrew

Just to confirm it isn't possible to test a Brushless DC Motor with a battery. Brushless motors are more like three-phase AC motors than the ordinary DC types. The electronic controller pulses the coils in sequence to produce a rotating magnetic field. As the pulse lengths and spacings applied to each winding are timed accurately, it's unlikely dabbing wires with a battery will prove anything. Testing the windings for continuity with a multimeter might usefully detect a duff winding, but that's about all that can be done. Unless someone knows different!

Brushless DC motors have many advantages over other types of electric motor, but they won't work without an electronic controller.

Dave

[Jim NicParticipant @jimnic]

As usual a comprehensive and, as far as possible helpful, response from Ketan.

Jim

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Just a general note…

In ARCs experience – specifically with brushless motors used on SIEG machines, the probabilities of the brushless motor developing a fault are extremely low.

A chap called Ned in U.S.A used/uses ? his SX3 extensively. He is one of few who has looked at an SX3 brushless motor – probably an earlier model – but I am presuming that the concept/principal/design remains more or less the same. Have a look at this link on his site.

Ketan at ARC.

[Nathan AdamsonParticipant @nathanadamson57464]

Thanks everyone for all the suggestions, I have contacted the closest distributor (in another country still) and am waiting to hear back from them, they have every electrical part in stock, just need to figure out which part I need

[StephenSParticipant @stephens]

I have spoken to the NZ dealer ExpressNet, also goes by the name Seig-Machines.co.nz, and he said that his business being closed is news to him. Assuming I have the right outfit, how does this relate to what you have found out Ketan? Not doubting anyone, just interested to know the truth.

[StephenSParticipant @stephens]

Interested to know the truth as I am planning on spending some money with him and don't want to lose it.

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Posted by StephenS on 02/11/2021 10:43:50:

I have spoken to the NZ dealer ExpressNet, also goes by the name Seig-Machines.co.nz, and he said that his business being closed is news to him. Assuming I have the right outfit, how does this relate to what you have found out Ketan? Not doubting anyone, just interested to know the truth.

I will check and let you know StephenS.

Ketan at ARC.

[Ketan SwaliParticipant @ketanswali79440]

Posted by Nathan Adamson on 31/10/2021 03:17:24:

Thanks everyone for all the suggestions, I have contacted the closest distributor (in another country still) and am waiting to hear back from them, they have every electrical part in stock, just need to figure out which part I need

Nathan,

I am a little confused.

You state that you contacted the closest distributor in another country.

• Which dealer did you contact? Was it AUSEE?..
• if you saw the parts on AUSEEs site, they appear to be some of the older parts rather than the newer parts as shown in the page link which I posted earlier.
• Depending on age of machine – based on serial number of the machine, you could replace old part with old part, and hope that the problem resolves and doesn't come back again. Or, you can refer to ARC page I have linked to, read it carefully and ask the supplier to give you the newer parts.
• If you have the old arrangement/board, and if you decide to consider to replace with the newer board, you will need all the components stated in the link. Check the control board currently fitted to your machine.

What ever you decide to do, take plenty of pictures before/during the dismantling/change over process, or ideally get a competent professional to carry out the work. As these are electrical components, they will not carry guarantee or warranty. There is no wiring diagram, and no supplier will be able to hold your hand or assist you through the installation process. There is next to zero knowledge or assistance on the Internet/forum to guide you through the process.

If you buy the wrong things without looking at the pictures of the boards/components, or without clear understanding, then chances of fizz, crackle, pop will be high. If things go wrong, this thread will then turn into a long discussion between you and others to figure out what went wrong,… a kind of situation with 'the blind leading the blind'…, especially as no one really knows which version of the SX3 you have… and quite frankly, with the greatest of respect… I honestly doubt that anyone on this forum is realistically qualified to be able to offer remote support or comment on the electrical assembly of the SX3…. and it is nothing to do with the machine being 'Made in China'… and the components are not cheap!

Ketan at ARC

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